Photons live in a singularity?

In summary, the question of whether photons "live" in a singularity or if they are themselves a singularity is meaningless due to the fact that the concept of a "point of view" or "reference frame" for a photon is nonsensical in the framework of physics. While there are some theories that suggest a photon can be thought of as a 2D rotating disk, this does not necessarily imply that it is a singularity. Ultimately, the geometry and nature of a photon remain a mystery and cannot be accurately described using traditional concepts of space and time.
  • #1
wjmt88
1
0
Photons "live" in a singularity?

I did some searches, but couldn't find an answer to this on this forum.

Since a photon can travel 1 km, 1 lightyear, 1 million lightyears in ZERO time from its own perspective, and if we did a though experiment from the point of view of a photon, does that mean that current knowledge says that from the point of view of a photon, the entire universe is a singularity?

Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2


In the current framework of physics, 'point of view of a photon' has no definite meaning.
 
  • #3


wjmt88 said:
I did some searches, but couldn't find an answer to this on this forum.

It's come up three other times this month:

Stationary photons, Oct20 (page 1).
Photons and time, Oct14 (page 2).
Irrelvancy of motion in C perspective, Oct6 (page 4).

Here is a detailed answer from Fredrik:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2205554#post2205554
 
  • #4


wjmt88 said:
I did some searches, but couldn't find an answer to this on this forum.

Since a photon can travel 1 km, 1 lightyear, 1 million lightyears in ZERO time from its own perspective, and if we did a though experiment from the point of view of a photon, does that mean that current knowledge says that from the point of view of a photon, the entire universe is a singularity?

Thanks!

Usually when people say "from the point of view of a photon", they mean "in the reference frame of a photon". But photons cannot be in a frame of reference because when we talk about an observer or an object or anything having a frame a reference or being in a frame of reference, we mean the frame in which that thing is at rest. SR states, in effect, that the speed of a photon is c in any frame of reference. Photons cannot both be at rest and be traveling at c at the same time in the same frame. It's pointless to even think about what would be happening in such a situation.

So the reason you cannot find an answer is because the question doesn't make sense.
 
  • #5


Maybe photons don't exist at all -- all we're detecting when we say we've detected a photon is two points in space-time touching one another.
 
  • #6


wjmt88 said:
I did some searches, but couldn't find an answer to this on this forum.

Since a photon can travel 1 km, 1 lightyear, 1 million lightyears in ZERO time from its own perspective, and if we did a though experiment from the point of view of a photon, does that mean that current knowledge says that from the point of view of a photon, the entire universe is a singularity?

Thanks!

I ignore if the entire universe is a singularity but I know that discontinuities can propagate along bicharacteristics. At the same time I know that photons also propagate along bicharacteristics. Does it induce that photons are discontinuities?

Just remember : A -> B and C -> B does not imply A = C !

So, the question stays open.
 
  • #7


Here's my follow up question-

From the "reference" of a photon, pretend we hitched a ride with one. We are traveling at C from the sun to the earth. We experience this journey as instant, and from our reference time has stopped for other references, they are at a standstill.

Yet when we reach earth, it has rotated 2 degrees. (8 minutes journey from Earth reference, 2 degree rotation)

How can Earth rotate 2 degrees during our journey if time for Earth is at a standstill from our reference?
 
  • #8


Did you read my answer in post #4 to the original question in post #1?

ghwellsjr said:
Usually when people say "from the point of view of a photon", they mean "in the reference frame of a photon". But photons cannot be in a frame of reference because when we talk about an observer or an object or anything having a frame a reference or being in a frame of reference, we mean the frame in which that thing is at rest. SR states, in effect, that the speed of a photon is c in any frame of reference. Photons cannot both be at rest and be traveling at c at the same time in the same frame. It's pointless to even think about what would be happening in such a situation.

So the reason you cannot find an answer is because the question doesn't make sense.

I thought I made a very-simple-to-understand-reason why a photon does not have a reference. Why do you then ask this question that doesn't make sense? I would really like to know why you didn't understand my answer. Please help me understand why you don't understand the meaninglessness of your question.
 
  • #9
ghwellsjr said:
Did you read my answer in post #4 to the original question in post #1?



I thought I made a very-simple-to-understand-reason why a photon does not have a reference. Why do you then ask this question that doesn't make sense? I would really like to know why you didn't understand my answer. Please help me understand why you don't understand the meaninglessness of your question.

Im sorry, your response was very thoughtfully written out and easy to understand. I thought my intent was clear.

My follow up question to the op was a demonstration of essentially, your point. Yes, the question doesn't make sense and the paradoxical conclusion does not make sense because assigning a reference to a photon does not make sense. That was the point, and why i initially quoted "reference" when referring to the photon.

I was agreeing with you.
 
  • #10


OK, thanks for explaining.
 
  • #11
The phrase 'point of view of a photon' is meaningless for reasons well explained above and so the question 'does a photon live in a singularity?' is likewise menaingless.

But to be contrarian, the question 'is a photon a singularity?' may have merit. After much contemplation of what the geometry of a photon might be I remain clueless but I have heard and read claims that a photon can be thought of as a 2D rotating disk traveling along the perpendicular axis. A singularity is so called when one or more divisors become zero.

A 2D photon if such a model is valid, has no volume and given it has mass by virtue of it's energy, would be infinitely dense! My instinct tells me this is wrong but the question is in what way?
 
  • #12
This thread is three years old.
 

1. What does it mean for photons to "live" in a singularity?

This statement is often used in the context of quantum mechanics, where photons are described as existing in a state of superposition, meaning they can exist in multiple places at once. This is similar to the concept of a singularity in physics, which is a point of infinite density and zero volume. So, the phrase "photons live in a singularity" refers to the idea that they exist in a state of infinite possibilities and potential.

2. How does this relate to the uncertainty principle?

The uncertainty principle, a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics, states that it is impossible to know both the exact position and momentum of a particle at the same time. This applies to photons as well, since they are both particles (massless particles) and waves. So, the idea of photons living in a singularity is related to the uncertainty principle in that their exact location and momentum cannot be determined simultaneously.

3. Can photons leave the singularity?

No, the singularity in this context is not a physical place that photons can "leave". It is a theoretical concept that represents the infinite possibilities and potential of photons in quantum mechanics. So, while photons can interact with other particles and fields, they do not physically enter or exit the singularity.

4. Does this have any real-world applications?

The concept of photons living in a singularity has significant implications for our understanding of quantum mechanics and the behavior of particles at the subatomic level. It has been used to explain phenomena such as quantum tunneling and the double-slit experiment. Additionally, this concept has led to advancements in technologies such as quantum computing and cryptography.

5. Is the singularity the only state that photons can exist in?

No, the singularity is just one of many possible states that photons can exist in. In quantum mechanics, particles can exist in a variety of states simultaneously, and the singularity is just one of these possibilities. The singularity is often used as a simplified way to conceptualize the complex and abstract nature of quantum particles, but it is not the only state that photons can exist in.

Similar threads

I The speed of one photon through a transparent medium
    • Special and General Relativity
3
Replies
74
Views
2K
I Photon in a mirrored box moving in direction of travel
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
26
Views
301
I Kerr disputes singularities in Kerr Black Holes
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
7
Views
1K
B A well defined thought experiment
    • Special and General Relativity
2
Replies
55
Views
1K
B Energy loss of a photon
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
1
Views
81
I Not at all clear examples of special relativity (rectangle in motion and coming to rest)
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
32
Views
896
I What is the Connection Between Black Holes and the Big Bang?
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
2
Views
813
I What is the experience of a photon?
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
4
Views
776
B Photon Travel: Is Our Universe a Single Point?
    • Special and General Relativity
Replies
9
Views
2K
B New Paradox Discovered, I Think
    • Special and General Relativity
3
Replies
98
Views
2K

Hot Threads

Recent Insights

Back
Top