Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[Evo]

Then you understand. It is like a fog.

Yeah, it's a form of denial. The details come back in retrospect, I saw the shooter hanging out of the rear passenger window of an old Chevy Impala looking car. He had a rifle. But the pieces didn't come together until afterwards, because your mind isn't expecting it.

What I thought was some guy hanging out of the car window pointing a stick and the car backfired.

 

[edward]

The speech was correct. However, I didn't care for the campaign-feel (53 interruptions?) and a large room with a sound stage. I would have preferred a solemn moment at the scene of the crime - this seemed too detached.

Good speech, good words - too crowd-responsive.

There were many solemn moments. There is a memorial in front of Giffords office and in front of the hospital. Each of the churches had memorial services. This was for the people of Tucson.

The event was held in the 14,000 seat Basketball arena at the University of Arizona. There is no sound stage, just good technicians. The entire program was put together in two days.

There were a lot of college students there who didn't really know how to act in such a situation. They were in a building where they had only attended rowdy basketball games.

They eventually got it!

 

[mugaliens]

There were many solemn moments. There is a memorial in front of Giffords office and in front of the hospital. Each of the churches had memorial services. This was for the people of Tucson.

The event was held in the 14,000 seat Basketball arena at the University of Arizona. There is no sound stage, just good technicians. The entire program was put together in two days.

There were a lot of college students there who didn't really know how to act in such a situation. They were in a building where they had only attended rowdy basketball games.

Something that's not been well reported in the news is that six of her staffers died.

I'm willing to bet there were more than a few tears in the arena. I knew none of those who died, but I still shed a few (tears). None of us likes this turn of events.

My heart goes out to those college students. Although I graduated Va Tech decades ago, the tragedy that occurred just a couple of years ago still hit hard.

 

[nismaratwork]

Hey, don't bring me into this. Russ still thinks I'm a closet liberal with ulterior motives. I'm usually just deflecting fire.

CLOSET? I thought you were just... liberal... with... you know, good old fashioned above-board motives. I don't always agree with you of course, but given that obvious deflection "ulterior" seems... really? I thought I had trust issues...


Mathamatuer. I'm glad you were able to get counseling, and I'm sorry that you had to see or be near any of that. Don't force anything; just take your time and don't be surprised if you have some random emotions float around. You'll be OK, you're OK now, and you're alive. I know... being alive isn't always amazing when so many are not, including your neighbor's friend, but you're alive, and you can grieve, recover, and if you wish, honor their memories.

Mugaliens: Cho... he really is shockingly similar to this guy on the surface, in terms of pathology. I was chatting with some colleagues this morning, and while no diagnosis is offered, the delusional structures are painfully similar.

Evo: I'm sorry that you witnessed that.

 

[DanP]

The judge who was killed was a good friend of my neighbor's. Their 11 year old was crying this last Sunday when my daughter (also 11) visited her. I just found out today that a colleague was shot and is just surviving at the University Medical Center. This all has hit our community hard.

On the positive side, President Obama visited yesterday and I got to hear him speak. The energy in the McKale Center was amazing and very healing.

I also continue to heal. My work provided a free counselor with experience in violent trauma and the President of our company wrote me a very kind note and the support of my colleagues have been just wonderful. But the image of nine year old Christina Green bleeding on the ground haunts me. I don't remember any of the other carnage which must have been around around her. Just Christina and the two people doing CPR trying to squeeze the life back into her. It is an image that will haunt me, I suppose, for a long time to come.

Ppl bleed to death on other areas of this world as we speak. Some are maimed by anti-personal mines, some are killed by random terrorist attacks, some perish due to famine,
thousands are killed in violent assaults. Some are shoot by cops, sometimes with no very good reasons reasons, a case was discussed not so long ago here.

It;s interesting psychologically that we seem largely unaffected by the hundreds of deaths around us. We feel safe, secure and sheltered by all that is wrong in this world. We kinda don't care. The danger is elusive and far away. But everything changes when we have an encounter with death up close and personal. Until then, all is good, and you believe the "dark side" will never strike so close to home. Then the wake up call comes.

 

[Lacy33]

It's a lesson for all of us.

This I have to support. I'm sorry it happened to one of our own here. But it is happening to perhaps more here and we don't hear about it. This happened to get a lot of media attention.

 

[Lacy33]

No, some of us already learned this lesson:

Mugaliens and others with serious service.
Evo and her Friend.
Me.
I'm sure, countless others here.

Math just learned that lesson the only way you can, and you're trying to make it about some personal philosophy before he's even past the shock. I don't disagree with WHAT you're saying, but when and to whom.

Math is not living on this forum and he is getting good supports where he is. His community is lucky that it had them in place.
I do not think there is any harm done by bringing up facts and facts they were.
I was a little embarrassed that when he did return he came back to a thread that had already begun to express the confussion surrounding all kinds of situations of discord.
he did not have a personal space to express his pain. He just jumped right back into the general confusion that is all over this world.
I can only say that for a sheltered community like the one he use to live in, his 11 year old did not have to see people dying. A parent can choose when a child is old enough to be introduced to death and dying generally in these kinds of communities.

 

[Evo]

Something that's not been well reported in the news is that six of her staffers died.

What are you talking about?

 

[turbo]

Something that's not been well reported in the news is that six of her staffers died.

One of her staffers (Gabe Zimmerman) was killed. The other five fatalities were people who showed up to talk to her, including a Federal district judge and a little girl.

 

[Lacy33]

One lady staffer just walked out of the hopital. TG

 

[nismaratwork]

Ppl bleed to death on other areas of this world as we speak. Some are maimed by anti-personal mines, some are killed by random terrorist attacks, some perish due to famine,
thousands are killed in violent assaults. Some are shoot by cops, sometimes with no very good reasons reasons, a case was discussed not so long ago here.

It;s interesting psychologically that we seem largely unaffected by the hundreds of deaths around us. We feel safe, secure and sheltered by all that is wrong in this world. We kinda don't care. The danger is elusive and far away. But everything changes when we have an encounter with death up close and personal. Until then, all is good, and you believe the "dark side" will never strike so close to home. Then the wake up call comes.

re: bolded: For a lucky few, yes. The rest of the world lives with violence and death far closer, which probably accounts for such a variety in the manner that cultures view and deal with death.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/14/arizona.shooting.website/index.html?hpt=T2

Why have we been arguing? Now that video-games are in the mix, even tangentially, we know who to blame. <---deeply sarcastic

 

[russ_watters]

Hey, don't bring me into this. Russ still thinks I'm a closet liberal with ulterior motives. I'm usually just deflecting fire.

Neither "closet" nor "ulterior motives" are terms I'd use but regardless it doesn't really matter. I'm not interested in arguing about it and I don't care what's going on in your head that makes it happen, I just point out (and then let go) when you post something that goes against facts and common definitions, such as your thing about Obama being a centrist. I think it is less confusing for the other members when they get a correction than just letting the misinformation stand unchallenged. You're quite clear about what your beliefs are, it's just the label that you put on them and others that hold the same beliefs that often doesn't make sense. Perhaps you could make it easier for the other members by putting a disclaimer in your sig that says something to the effect of: "Disclaimer: I use definitions for "liberal" and "conservative" that don't match the standard definitions." I think that would help avoid confusing the other members. That way when you say 'Obama is a centrist' people don't have to wonder what the heck you're talking about.

 

[arildno]

To everyone's common relief, I hope, it is reported that Giffords can now move her legs on command.
The doctors are planning to remove her breathing tube.
The other patients are also on recovery, one is soon ready to be discharged.
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/news/giffords-can-move-legs-begins-physical-therapy-1.1843099

 

[russ_watters]

Phew, thanks... I was worried that I only thought you were painfully cynical. By the way, how do you know that fluff doesn't win your support... have you allowed for a scientific examination of your voting and ideological history?

I'm very open to such things if anyone is interested in studying me. I think researchers could learn a lot from me.

And I do occasionally take those 'where do you stand politically' tests and have been pretty consistently moderately conservative (on an American scale) all my life. On this forum I probably seem very conservative, but that's only because the Americans on this forum are oriented well left (on average) and the forum includes a lot of Europeans. So I'm very far to the right of average for the forum.

You certainly seem to be swayed by it, just not fluff you dislike or find less than useful... it seems. Of course, maybe you defy the odds, but of the people on this site I'd have called as being "above it all"... you're not it. I'm not either, don't get me wrong, but you and Ivan are the legendary pair chasing each other for eternity... I'd be crushed if that was shaken somehow.

Well it is true that fluff has the opposite effect on me that it is intended to (particularly with marketing - I'll make a mental note of commercials I hate and make sure to avoid the products if I get a chance) and that opposite effect isn't "no effect", but it also really is true that a fluff speech doesn't do anything for me. I brought up Bush as an example for the other side of the fence. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a hard-core liberals on the forum who would acknowledge reciprocity in their own politicians.

 

[nismaratwork]

To everyone's common relief, I hope, it is reported that Giffords can now move her legs on command.
The doctors are planning to remove her breathing tube.
The other patients are also on recovery, one is soon ready to be discharged.
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/news/giffords-can-move-legs-begins-physical-therapy-1.1843099

If she can talk clearly as well, I'm going to completely faint for the first time in my life. AMAZING recovery... and it's as if it's in fast-forward.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm very open to such things if anyone is interested in studying me. I think researchers could learn a lot from me.

I think you're right... how do you feel about a dozen electrodes in your brain?... they're VERY small...

And I do occasionally take those 'where do you stand politically' tests and have been pretty consistently moderately conservative (on an American scale) all my life. On this forum I probably seem very conservative, but that's only because the Americans on this forum are oriented well left (on average) and the forum includes a lot of Europeans.

You're a true conservative, just not the kind of fruitcake that calls themselves conservative when they mean "psychotic-right-wing". You remind me in many ways of a good friend of mine; I'm a social dove where he's a hawk, and an international hawk where he's a dove; I realize "arch-conservative" is in context.

So I'm very far to the right of average for the forum.

I hadn't noticed!

Well it is true that fluff has the opposite effect on me that it is intended to (particularly with marketing - I'll make a mental note of commercials I hate and make sure to avoid the products if I get a chance) and that opposite effect isn't "no effect", but it also really is true that a fluff speech doesn't do anything for me. I brought up Bush as an example for the other side of the fence. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a hard-core liberals on the forum who would acknowledge reciprocity in their own politicians.

You're right, but this is arguably some of the most reasonable, and least hostile political discourse I've seen from you, so I'm not sure what to think. Obviously I hardly know you even by internet standards, but this strikes me as a far more approachable tone than the one I normally see. I recognize it, because as I also tend to be strident when passionate, then far more reasonable when the discussion is academic... of course. You're human too, and I get that.

I also recognize the hypocrisy on the left, but it's very constant... the right in the USA now has a voting block that in many ways is essentially divorced from political and social reality. That said, maybe you're just defensive in what you perceive as a hostile environment, and sometimes it clearly is. I'll have to think about what you've said beyond my response here; while brief, it's not inconsequential in my view.

 

[russ_watters]

You're right, but this is arguably some of the most reasonable, and least hostile political discourse I've seen from you, so I'm not sure what to think. Obviously I hardly know you even by internet standards, but this strikes me as a far more approachable tone than the one I normally see. I recognize it, because as I also tend to be strident when passionate, then far more reasonable when the discussion is academic... of course. You're human too, and I get that.

Please note the inherrent selection bias on an internet forum: people only enter discussions about topics they care about which tends to mean you only see their more passionate/hardened opinions. Also, being opinionated or passionate about a subject doesn't necessarily relate to how well-thought out a position is. My biggest complaint about this forum is that IMO the intelligence level of the discussion is often pretty low and I try hard to make my arguments thoughtful even if they are passionate. I'm not sure what you think you saw from me, but you've only been here 6 months and it seemed to me like you formed a pretty negative opinion about me pretty quickly - not a very big sample size, I'd say.

And this conversation we're having right now isn't really about a political opinion, it is about me!

 

[nismaratwork]

Please note the inherrent selection bias on an internet forum: people only enter discussions about topics they care about which tends to mean you only see their more passionate/hardened opinions. Also, being opinionated or passionate about a subject doesn't necessarily relate to how well-thought out a position is. My biggest complaint about this forum is that IMO the intelligence level of the discussion is often pretty low and I try hard to make my arguments thoughtful even if they are passionate. I'm not sure what you think you saw from me, but you've only been here 6 months and it seemed to me like you formed a pretty negative opinion about me pretty quickly - not a very big sample size, I'd say.

And this conversation we're having right now isn't really about a political opinion, it is about me!

True...

Look Russ, you present yourself in a very particular way, which is often more oppositional than purely constructive. You're right; I formed a poor opinion of you, although not of your intelligence or competence. The very fact that I felt comfortable enough to mention you in the context I did, while unflattering, is an indicator that my view of you has changed; you are not a monolith.

There is the bias you describe, and the passion, but from personal experience; you show a level of what may be called commitment, or dogged determination to make your case. Sometimes that goes beyond simple determination into the realm of something a little more in the vein of a rant. In particular, you and Ivan clearly do not get along, like each either, respect each other, and barely tolerate each other. That's the impression I've gotten in my time here, and even if it's true, as a mentor when you get passionate or angry... it has more UMPH for the average user than say, a rant of mine.

If you want to best serve the positions you represent, especially given that you are so often part of the sample size: "Russ, Mhelsp(sp?), and Al," then it may be a better approach to be both intellectually rigorous, and genuinely engaged in something other than dismissing an idea.

I understand that analysis of inherently emotional issues requires a measure of distance, but there's a balance to be struck between constantly espousing an ideology, and showing up to set facts straight. You do both, but you're not in the same fair position as the rest of us; you actually get judged more harshly because you have a measure of authority! Unfair, but true.

As I said, my view of you has evolved from: "he's a flak," to the point where I think you're telling me the absolute truth about your motivations; I just wish that the tone in general my own included, had been more about communication than bludgeoning.

I do apologize for those assumptions I've made about you, based on what you've accurately pointed out is a non-sample. You're also right, that this is personally directed, but when two of the most active (especially in GD, P&WA, and S&D) mentors are practically locked in a constant battle. I know that it takes 2 to tango, but... I've been able to PM Ivan without thinking he'd just laugh in my face and re-state his personal position. It took time to realize that you present yourself in a manner that is in many ways, unrelated to how you're willing to step back and talk.

Part of that is me, but part of it is just that this ongoing fight is bad for any forum, but it's almost tragic given the sheer volume of text you and Ivan exchange without either shifting a mm. It's hard to see this as something other than a personal fight that simply had its roots in ideology.

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/14/arizona.shooting.website/index.html?hpt=T2

Why have we been arguing? Now that video-games are in the mix, even tangentially, we know who to blame. <---deeply sarcastic

About the video games - parents need to pay attention to the content. Parents need to pay attention to changes in a child's behavior - especially if they notice a major change in speech patterns and actions within a few days of a child watching a movie, a TV show, or a video game. If your 5 year old daughter kicks the dog, shoots water at dad and tells mom to "get outta ma way ho" - parents need to pay attention - she was influenced by SOMETHING.

 

[nismaratwork]

About the video games - parents need to pay attention to the content. Parents need to pay attention to changes in a child's behavior - especially if they notice a major change in speech patterns and actions within a few days of a child watching a movie, a TV show, or a video game. If your 5 year old daughter kicks the dog, shoots water at dad and tells mom to "get outta ma way ho" - parents need to pay attention - she was influenced by SOMETHING.

Sure, but parents need to watch the content of ALL media, and this guy wasn't 5... he's 22 and mad as a cut snake.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/14/arizona.shooting.website/index.html?hpt=T2

Why have we been arguing? Now that video-games are in the mix, even tangentially, we know who to blame. <---deeply sarcastic

Of course, you are always right! <-- lame joke

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you might have 'missed' the last paragraph:

Unlike some of his posts as Dare on the Earth Empires site, the comments from Erad3 on didn't mention violence. But they do reflect a strong urge to break free of any restraints -- real or imagined -- imposed by government officials.

This must mean that the self-proclaimed "experts" in this thread was right all along – Let’s continue throwing shoes at U.S. Secretary of State Ms. Clinton and President Obama! <-- genuinely sarcastic


(Sorry buddy, but you had it coming. )

 

[nismaratwork]

Of course, you are always right! <-- lame joke

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you might have 'missed' the last paragraph:



This must mean that the self-proclaimed "experts" in this thread was right all along – Let’s continue throwing shoes at U.S. Secretary of State Ms. Clinton and President Obama! <-- genuinely sarcastic


(Sorry buddy, but you had it coming. )

:rofl:

I think we can all relax knowing that this was the act of a delusional, and probably Schizophrenic man who was never diagnosed or treated.

 

[WhoWee]

Sure, but parents need to watch the content of ALL media, and this guy wasn't 5... he's 22 and mad as a cut snake.

I agree, and I agree - that's a good way to start - do you agree?

The parents had their chance to pay attention at 5 - 10, and 15 years - they either dropped the ball or did their best - we'll never know? There's an old saying - you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. I believe they were part of the problem - just not sure what their specific role was - best guess - facilitators.

Most of the parent's options to "do something" about their (over 18) son would either put them in the spotlight, cost them money, or put them in harms way. Accordingly, it appears they provided the basic needs and took a wait and see position.

A 22 year old that's been thrown out of college with no clear future plans or opportunities requires a different support system than a focused, goal oriented, hard working student. The lay-about drop-out requires food, shelter, utilities, and a sounding board. The parents were able to provide these basic requirements.

The Monday Morning Quarterback in me thinks they should have told him (the first time he got in trouble at school) to either correct his behavior (and stay in school) or find another place to live.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

:rofl:

I think we can all relax knowing that this was the act of a delusional, and probably Schizophrenic man who was never diagnosed or treated.

Schizophrenic?? :grumpy:

I want *DIRECT LINKS* and *ROCK-SOLID PROOF* or I WILL call for mentoring!


(:rofl:)

 

[Evo]

The Monday Morning Quarterback in me thinks they should have told him (the first time he got in trouble at school) to either correct his behavior (and stay in school) or find another place to live.

Or in the case of his irrational behavior, get him mentally evaluated. But the father didn't work and don't know if the mother's job included insurance. If they didn't have insurance, they might not havfe wanted to spend the money for private mental health, and either afraid or unwilling to get public assistance, maybe not even sure how to.

That school's counselor certainly was useless.

 

[nismaratwork]

I agree, and I agree - that's a good way to start - do you agree?

The parents had their chance to pay attention at 5 - 10, and 15 years - they either dropped the ball or did their best - we'll never know? There's an old saying - you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. I believe they were part of the problem - just not sure what their specific role was - best guess - facilitators.

Most of the parent's options to "do something" about their (over 18) son would either put them in the spotlight, cost them money, or put them in harms way. Accordingly, it appears they provided the basic needs and took a wait and see position.

A 22 year old that's been thrown out of college with no clear future plans or opportunities requires a different support system than a focused, goal oriented, hard working student. The lay-about drop-out requires food, shelter, utilities, and a sounding board. The parents were able to provide these basic requirements.

The Monday Morning Quarterback in me thinks they should have told him (the first time he got in trouble at school) to either correct his behavior (and stay in school) or find another place to live.

I agree... there will always be some people who slip through EVERY crack by sheer odds alone. Loughner is somewhere on that continuum, and everything else you've said... he's either that, or he's insane. I tend towards the latter, but we'll find out eventually and have no real way of KNOWING for now.

 

[nismaratwork]

Or in the case of his irrational behavior, get him mentally evaluated. But the father didn't work and don't know if the mother's job included insurance. If they didn't have insurance, they might not havfe wanted to spend the money for private mental health, and either afraid or unwilling to get public assistance, maybe not even sure how to.

That school's counselor certainly was useless.

Agreed, but as I was amazed to learn in this very thread from you I think... another person with no such concern could have called a hot-line. Even people who admit to being afraid of him didn't; it took a lot of looking away to get this guy in general circulation given the depth of whatever is the source of his delusions.

DevilsAvocado: Be nice, or I'll take a cue from another user and start calling you "SatansGuacamole"!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... But the father didn't work and don't know if the mother's job included insurance. If they didn't have insurance, they might not havfe wanted to spend the money for private mental health, and either afraid or unwilling to get public assistance, maybe not even sure how to.

I think that the "demonic picture" that has been painted on the parents could be slightly wrong... The (step?)father was unemployed, but the mother seems perfectly "normal".

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/12/national/main7238536.shtml?tag=stack"

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County's human resources director.

Linda McKinley, 62, has lived down the street from the Loughner family for decades and said the parents could not be nicer - but that she had misgivings about Jared as he got older.

"As a parent, my heart aches for them," she said.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

DevilsAvocado: Be nice,

Okay, I’ll behave (just because it’s you honey)...

or I'll take a cue from another user and start calling you "SatansGuacamole"!

This is NOT the time or place to enforce users to laugh their pants off! :grumpy:


( )

 

[nismaratwork]

Okay, I’ll behave (just because it’s you honey)...



This is NOT the time or place to enforce users to laugh their pants off! :grumpy:


( )

Catharsis!

 

[DanP]

PMy biggest complaint about this forum is that IMO the intelligence level of the discussion is often pretty low and I try hard to make my arguments thoughtful even if they are passionate.

It never appear to me that some posters are trying to emit intelligent things in those forums, the vast majority of the posts here could serve to write a paper in social biases. No poster in those sub-forums is really shining over others, no matter what they are thinking about themselves.

 

[Evo]

I think that the "demonic picture" that has been painted on the parents could be slightly wrong... The (step?)father was unemployed, but the mother seems perfectly "normal".

He's the father. I don't quite follow, are you saying that the parents had no responsilibility for getting help for their son although they were aware of his problems?

 

[nismaratwork]

He's the father. I don't quite follow, are you saying that the parents had no responsilibility for getting help for their son although they were aware of his problems?

I think the jury might be out on whether the father falls into the range of "eccentric" or if he's some kind of substance abuser (alcoholic), just plain mean, mentally ill...

It's odd that you have this very normal seeming woman who functions in the world, a man who avoids it at all costs, and a son who's the poster boy for Schizophrenia. Yes, there's responsibility, but I'm unclear as to what was going on in that very closed home and family.

 

[WhoWee]

I agree... there will always be some people who slip through EVERY crack by sheer odds alone. Loughner is somewhere on that continuum, and everything else you've said... he's either that, or he's insane. I tend towards the latter, but we'll find out eventually and have no real way of KNOWING for now.

All my "Monday Morning Quarterback" solution would have done would be to either force him to make a decision (school or the street) which is fine if person is sane - and (in this case) push him into the "system" faster - probably jail.

It could be argued that if pushed out of the house, he might have done something (else) just as terrible - maybe to his family? It could also be speculated he would have done something equally terrible sooner or after serving time in jail. I think we all agree that without significant mental evaluation and treatment - he would have eventually hurt someone? I also think we all recognize the campus police, local police and county sheriff's officers are not mental health workers.