Obama for President: Experienced Leader

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In summary: You should care about the greater good, and try to do what's best for everyone. That's... not a very good attitude.
  • #36
Pengwuino said:
Heh, my parents are pure middle class and had nothing but higher taxes and higher medical bills because of him.
Which taxes have increased, and by how much?

Digging around the internets, I count a total of about $60B in tax hikes that have taken effect so far (nearly a third of which involves plugging a loophole in an alternative fuels tax credit that primarily affects the lumber/paper industry - see "Black Liquor Tax").

The 'Making Work Pay' tax credit alone was over $100B, and if you throw in all the payroll tax cuts and small business credits that Obama has passed, I wouldn't be surprised if there's been close to $200B in cuts.

So I'd be surprised if any significant fraction of the population has seen an increase yet (though that may change in the next few years). I think you'd have to be a chain smoking (see: tobacco tax increase) paper mill to have seen more tax raises than cuts.
 
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  • #37
If Romney does not win the primary, I think it's safe to say Obama is definitely winning a second term. None of the other candidates are really viable. Especially Newt gingrich, who has more black marks on his record than a smudged printer test sheet.
 
  • #38
Char. Limit said:
Wow, didn't take long for this thread to get derailed by anti-Obama fanatics, did it?

The thread started as a single thoughtless statement expressing that Obama is better than the others. How exactly was this derailed?

I'm sorry, I suppose everyone should just nod politely and agree, less we're called anti-Obama fanatics.
 
  • #39
Pengwuino said:
The thread started as a single thoughtless statement expressing that Obama is better than the others. How exactly was this derailed?

I'm sorry, I suppose everyone should just nod politely and agree, less we're called anti-Obama fanatics.

Well.. you did politely agree with our first post : )
 
  • #40
Gokul43201 said:
So I'd be surprised if any significant fraction of the population has seen an increase yet (though that may change in the next few years). I think you'd have to be a chain smoking (see: tobacco tax increase) paper mill to have seen more tax raises than cuts.

They've had hikes in health care premiums starting right after Obama passed his health care plan. Insurers aren't idiots. My father also runs a small seasonal tax preparation business and has seen his costs go up. Hell, I think the profit from the business barely covers their normal tax bill.

The only good President in my opinion will be the one who gets rid of all the BS in the tax code. I did a clients return the other night (I work for him as well on the side) and this lady had $15k income, paid $1.5k in SS/Taxes, and since she had 2 kids, received an $8000 refund. My father does mainly lower income and middle class folks tax return and he says in all his years, the basic trend really is that lower and lower-middle class people do not pay ANY taxes. Most of them receive so much that the feds practically repay any state sales tax the people may have paid so "any" tax literally means ANY tax.

The problem with this country is that a vast majority of people pay so little taxes that they have no idea what it costs to run the country. This is why I dislike the pro-taxes types and the people who buy votes by running with pro-taxes agendas. If 30% of everyones income was taken away before you could even see it, I think people would start being a little more wary of having so many taxes.

Pythagorean said:
Well.. you did politely agree with our first post : )

It was a back-handed agreement. It's like saying that the UN has the most experience being the UN. I can't believe the thread wasn't shut down immediately.
 
  • #41
Pengwuino said:
The problem with this country is that a vast majority of people pay so little taxes that they have no idea what it costs to run the country. This is why I dislike the pro-taxes types and the people who buy votes by running with pro-taxes agendas. If 30% of everyones income was taken away before you could even see it, I think people would start being a little more wary of having so many taxes.

In general, higher taxed places are actually happier. Of course, the higher tax has to actually go towards people's happiness. But based on so-called "for the greater goods" reply in this thread... the money is actually going towards people's happiness. Which is why Obama is going to win : )

As an example, Denmark has a 41.4 HPI, The US has 28.8 HPI, just looking at taxes and happiness index. But you can also read a more thorough review:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-happiest-places-on-earth-are-heavily-taxed

It was a back-handed agreement. It's like saying that the UN has the most experience being the UN. I can't believe the thread wasn't shut down immediately.

It's more like saying let's not uproot the UN and replace it with an administration that has a completely different value system. The time it takes to change everything and all the conflicting policies during transition would be much more costly to members of the UN. And why? The UN is doing it's job!

The UN is an excellent candidate for remaining the UN!
 
  • #42
Pengwuino said:
They've had hikes in health care premiums starting right after Obama passed his health care plan. Insurers aren't idiots.
They also had hikes right before, and the year before, and the year before that ... going back many, many years, and at about thrice the inflation rate, on average. What might be useful is a comparison of the increases after, with the rate of increase before ACA was passed. I haven't seen any data that's recent enough for that.

trend-average-single-and-family-health-premiums-2000-2009.PNG


My father also runs a small seasonal tax preparation business and has seen his costs go up. Hell, I think the profit from the business barely covers their normal tax bill.
But this is not to say that he's seen a net increase in taxes, is it?

The only good President in my opinion will be the one who gets rid of all the BS in the tax code.
Might not be any President that can pull it off. For one thing, you'd need a supermajority in Congress that wants the same thing.

I did a clients return the other night (I work for him as well on the side) and this lady had $15k income, paid $1.5k in SS/Taxes, and since she had 2 kids, received an $8000 refund. My father does mainly lower income and middle class folks tax return and he says in all his years, the basic trend really is that lower and lower-middle class people do not pay ANY taxes. Most of them receive so much that the feds practically repay any state sales tax the people may have paid so "any" tax literally means ANY tax.
I believe this though it's quite the opposite in my case. I pay a much higher tax rate than say, Romney ... on a pathetic postdoc salary.

If 30% of everyones income was taken away before you could even see it, I think people would start being a little more wary of having so many taxes.
I agree.
 
  • #43
well, look at that... the slope is smaller during Obama! It looks like there's a lot of fallacy in people's selective claims about rising costs.

Pengwuino, perhaps you should have your parents create a PF account rather than us relying on your hearsay.
 
  • #44
So far, and this is just tentative, and just my opinion, I don't think that Obama represents any sort of significant positive change. That is, assuming Romney gets the GOP nomination, then I don't think it matters who gets elected to the presidency.

For example, Obama recently temporarily stopped the TransCanada oil pipeline to Texas. A good thing imo, because I think that what's needed is more American refineries, not a pipeline to Texas for eventual export so that the oil companies can maximize their profits.

But it remains to be seen what the eventual outcome will be. I'm betting that, eventually, Obama will go along with it (and of course Romney is pro-pipeline all the way), and then we'll see the usual discussions about how he was forced to do it because of unreasonable Republican intransigence or whatever.

I also don't think that Obama is going to spearhead the enactment of sufficient regulatory measures wrt, say, the financial industry. Or that he's going to lead the way to significant changes in the tax code ... etc. In short, flip a coin, it will be business as usual either way.
 
  • #45
ThomasT said:
In short, flip a coin, it will be business as usual either way.

So then by that measure do you agree that a change in administration would just be an unnecessary hassle?
 
  • #46
Char. Limit said:
If Romney does not win the primary, I think it's safe to say Obama is definitely winning a second term. None of the other candidates are really viable. Especially Newt gingrich, who has more black marks on his record than a smudged printer test sheet.

I think that you have been watching too many Romney ads. Many of Newt's "black marks" are false and many are unusable in a general election campaign. I would be happy to get into specifics but that would probably be considered "thread hijacking". McCain was too much of a gentleman to use personal attacks. Newt will use them in retaliation. Newt doesn't have to cringe whenever the health care topic comes up, Romney does. Newt is not the "poster boy" for the OWS people; Romney is a perfect boogey man for the planned "class warfare" campaign. Present polls not withstanding, I think Newt will be a more formidable candidate than Romney.

The only prediction I have is that this race will be extremely close. Anyone who thinks this will be a blowout for either side is engaging in wishful thinking.

Skippy
 
  • #47
Pythagorean said:
So then by that measure do you agree that a change in administration would just be an unnecessary hassle?
My opinion is that all elected public officials should be allowed one term (say, 6 years) and that's it. Wrt your question, I don't think it will matter whether Obama or Romney is elected. So, yeah, if that's the choice, then why bother voting? Or, as the mainstream ads extoll, "it doesn't matter who you vote for, as long as you vote". Well, if it doesn't matter who you vote for, then why does it matter if you vote at all?

On the other hand, if Gingrich gets nominated, then I'll probably vote for Obama.
 
  • #48
I'm actually impressed with what I've seen of Romney's science stances, so far. I mostly just don't think his stage presence is going to appeal to most the voting US, and of course (to reiterate my OP) a change in administration is a waste of time if the candidates have the same end effect.
 
  • #49
ThomasT said:
Well, if it doesn't matter who you vote for, then why does it matter if you vote at all?
If I were a politician and I could do a favor for some district, I might pick one that had voted for me in order to reward it, or I might pick one that had voted against me in order to seduce it, but I would never pick a district that doesn't vote.
 
  • #50
Jimmy Snyder said:
If I were a politician and I could do a favor for some district, I might pick one that had voted for me in order to reward it, or I might pick one that had voted against me in order to seduce it, but I would never pick a district that doesn't vote.

Good point; that's an important factor. But it doesn't mean much to a district with little/no population. We don't get much political foreplay whether we vote or not because the numbers just aren't enough to warrant appealing to us.
 
  • #51
Gokul43201 said:
But this is not to say that he's seen a net increase in taxes, is it?

Yes, it is. They are on fixed incomes and haven't had any real changes in their exemptions or anything.

Might not be any President that can pull it off. For one thing, you'd need a supermajority in Congress that wants the same thing.

Which is a whole 'nother thread, unfortunately.

I believe this though it's quite the opposite in my case. I pay a much higher tax rate than say, Romney ... on a pathetic postdoc salary.

If you're talking about the 15% rate, that's been debunked before. Have some kids, they do wonders on your tax bill. It surprises me that my city is not rich with tax dollars considering the way people pop out babies around here :biggrin: .
 
  • #52
Pythagorean said:
It's more like saying let's not uproot the UN and replace it with an administration that has a completely different value system. The time it takes to change everything and all the conflicting policies during transition would be much more costly to members of the UN. And why? The UN is doing it's job!

The UN is an excellent candidate for remaining the UN!

So in 2004, you would have agreed not to vote out Bush because why should we replace him with an administration that has a completely different value system? Remember, one persons "he's doing half decent" is another persons "he's destroying this country". That would imply we should just get rid of term limits because "why go through the hassle".
 
  • #53
Pythagorean said:
I'm actually impressed with what I've seen of Romney's science stances, so far. I mostly just don't think his stage presence is going to appeal to most the voting US, and of course (to reiterate my OP) a change in administration is a waste of time if the candidates have the same end effect.
I think that Obama's stage presence and rhetorical ability exceeds any of his possible opponents. But of course we have no way of knowing if a, say, Romney presidency would be substantially different than an Obama presidency.

The problem I have with Obama, and why he's been something of a disappointment to me, is that I don't think he's used the power of the presidency, his bully pulpit, to anywhere near its maximum effect -- assuming that he actually wants the sort of sweeping changes, to the betterment of America, that his rhetoric seems to indicate that he wants. His rhetoric is sort of inspiring, but his actions have been, more or less, in line with the status quo ... imho.
 
  • #54
Pengwuino said:
That would imply we should just get rid of term limits because "why go through the hassle".

You're being rather selective in your reading comprehension. "Why go through the hassle" is a conditional. It only applies if the forseeable outcome is the same for both candidates.

So this kind of argument is only a distraction from the real argument (whether another candidate could do a better job, whether the forseeable outcome is not in favor of Obama). What makes you want to avoid that argument? Are you just throwing everything to the wall and seeing what sticks?

For example, why avoid responding to the statistics that show a lower increase in the increase of premiums during Obama's stay? You selectively complained about the function of the data, ignoring the derivative that countered your complaint. Instead, you chose to raise a straw man.

If you want to have a productive discussion, tell me who you think would have a better forseeable outcome and why, instead of using deconstruction tactics.
 
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  • #55
Jimmy Snyder said:
If I were a politician and I could do a favor for some district, I might pick one that had voted for me in order to reward it, or I might pick one that had voted against me in order to seduce it, but I would never pick a district that doesn't vote.
I think that, if you were a politician, then you would have a prioritized list of people, companies, etc. that you are beholden to, and that that list would be prioritized according to the monetary contributions and power/influence of those people, companies, etc. -- and that how the common folk in a particular district have voted, or not voted, will be less important than that.

Wrt the logical parsing of the statement (a common theme in mainstream ads some years back), "it doesn't matter who you vote for, just as long as you vote", my question remains. If it doesn't matter who you vote for, then why does it matter that you vote?
 
  • #56
ThomasT said:
I think that Obama's stage presence and rhetorical ability exceeds any of his possible opponents. But of course we have no way of knowing if a, say, Romney presidency would be substantially different than an Obama presidency.

I agree, we can only talk about forseeables. Another reason my voting is pointless. Maybe despite Romney's bumbling stage presence, he'd make a much more effective commander and chief. I don't really know what's going on "up there" within the circles of the rich and powerful (no conspiracy theory intended... that they're in competition with each other only convolutes things more).

The problem I have with Obama, and why he's been something of a disappointment to me, is that I don't think he's used the power of the presidency, his bully pulpit, to anywhere near its maximum effect -- assuming that he actually wants the sort of sweeping changes, to the betterment of America, that his rhetoric seems to indicate that he wants. His rhetoric is sort of inspiring, but his actions have been, more or less, in line with the status quo ... imho.

Yes, he's actually been quite moderate on a lot of issues (such as abortion).

I'm not terribly surprised overall though. Everybody that makes it to president had some people that helped them get there. They're all somebody's corporate puppet to some extent. Ron Paul is probably the least so, but nobody takes him seriously and there's no guarantee his ideas would ever see the light of day if he magically made it to president.
 
  • #57
Pythagorean said:
Another reason my voting is pointless.
I think it probably is pointless, but it doesn't have to be. That is, as long as we're pretty much confined to voting for either a Republican or a Democratic candidate, either of which is necessarily going to represent the interests of the status quo, then voting for one or the other is essentially pointless. But it doesn't have to be in the sense that it's entirely possible to develop massive support for a third major party that represents the interests of the people and improvements in America, and not just the interests, to the detriment of America, of corporations, the wealthy, and the financial sector.

But I've gotten off topic. Imho, Obama wil win. I'll probably vote for him. And no significant positive changes will ensue.
 
  • #58
Or I could just move to Denmark...
 
  • #59
Pythagorean said:
You're being rather selective in your reading comprehension. "Why go through the hassle" is a conditional. It only applies if the forseeable outcome is the same for both candidates.

But that's what you're implying.

So this kind of argument is only a distraction from the real argument (whether another candidate could do a better job, whether the forseeable outcome is not in favor of Obama). What makes you want to avoid that argument? Are you just throwing everything to the wall and seeing what sticks?

For example, why avoid responding to the statistics that show a lower increase in the increase of premiums during Obama's stay? You selectively complained about the function of the data, ignoring the derivative that countered your complaint. Instead, you chose to raise a straw man.

I find your attitude insulting. Health premiums HAVE gone up, was I suppose to argue that they haven't? The idea that they haven't gone up as fast is argument against the fact that my parents have seen increases and that we should keep ol' Obama in office is silly.

If you want to have a productive discussion, tell me who you think would have a better forseeable outcome and why, instead of using deconstruction tactics.

You still haven't answered my question. I find your notion of keeping a candidate because it's too much of a hassle to change a bit silly. Why aren't you defending this notion beyond situations that are convenient for yourself?
 
  • #60
Imho, Obama wil win. I'll probably vote for him. And no significant positive changes will ensue.

Some significant positive changes have already ensued. Health care is huge to me, particularly as I am an uninsured type one diabetic. But you can thank Republicans and blue dog Democrats for keeping most of the 'change' from happening. I swear, the Democrats should've FORCED the filibuster out. What kind of country requires a sixty vote majority to pass legislation? The Democrats had a clear mandate from the people, and they lost it.
 
  • #61
Angry Citizen said:
Some significant positive changes have already ensued. Health care is huge to me, particularly as I am an uninsured type one diabetic.
Has Obamacare made a positive difference? I honestly don't know. It doesn't affect me, as I'm a veteran and have free health care for life.
 
  • #62
ThomasT said:
Has Obamacare made a positive difference? I honestly don't know. It doesn't affect me, as I'm a veteran and have free health care for life.

It affects many young people who can stay on their parents' plans until age 26 (I think it's 26).

Very helpful to young folks who have to take jobs that don't offer insurance.
 
  • #63
Pythagorean said:
Obama has done a lot to reduce money-powered lobbying.

Care to elaborate and support with specifics?
 
  • #64
I think we should vote them all out and make Chuck Norris president. :wink:

Seriously though, they all have their own agenda in mind. So the question is who really has America's best interest in mind?

Personally, I don't feel like Obama has done what he said he was going to do, and he can't blame congress considering it was completely controlled by the democrats for half of his presidency.
 
  • #65
Personally, I don't feel like Obama has done what he said he was going to do, and he can't blame congress considering it was completely controlled by the democrats for half of his presidency.

That's actually false, given that everything the Democrats tried to pass that was of consequence had to pass through the Senate Republicans' filibusters. All it took was one Democrat (Lieberman, I look at you) to join the Republicans on an issue and that was all she wrote. Case in point the "public option". In the Democratic-controlled House sans filibuster, the public option was welcomed with open arms. In the filibuster-prone Senate, it was killed. Why else do you think Obama struck the tone of the "Great Compromiser" for most of his Presidency? He had to at least try to woo Republican Senators to his side. Unfortunately, Obama did not bank on the Republicans' rather pitiful need to unseat him at all costs. I have never seen such obstructionist politics in all my studies of history. I thought the 2006 Congress was bad, but the 2008 Congress was the worst in history. A clear mandate from the people, yet the Republicans blocked everything that came through.
 
  • #66
Angry Citizen said:
That's actually false, given that everything the Democrats tried to pass that was of consequence had to pass through the Senate Republicans' filibusters. All it took was one Democrat (Lieberman, I look at you) to join the Republicans on an issue and that was all she wrote. Case in point the "public option". In the Democratic-controlled House sans filibuster, the public option was welcomed with open arms. In the filibuster-prone Senate, it was killed. Why else do you think Obama struck the tone of the "Great Compromiser" for most of his Presidency? He had to at least try to woo Republican Senators to his side. Unfortunately, Obama did not bank on the Republicans' rather pitiful need to unseat him at all costs. I have never seen such obstructionist politics in all my studies of history. I thought the 2006 Congress was bad, but the 2008 Congress was the worst in history. A clear mandate from the people, yet the Republicans blocked everything that came through.

Are you certain the Republicans blocked "everything that came through"? I seem to recall PPACA, Cash for Clunkers, Stimulus, and the tax cuts that were Bush's then Obama's and now Bush's again(something like that - IMO - can't keep track)?
 
  • #67
seba102288 said:
I think we should vote them all out and make Chuck Norris president. :wink:

Seriously though ...
What do you mean "seriously though"?
 
  • #68
WhoWee said:
Are you certain the Republicans blocked "everything that came through"? I seem to recall PPACA, Cash for Clunkers, Stimulus, and the tax cuts that were Bush's then Obama's and now Bush's again(something like that - IMO - can't keep track)?

The PPACA was blocked at all possible turns. It was neutered from its original form, which was actually a decent health care law. This current incarnation is the work of the blue dog Democrats and the Republican obstructionists. The stimulus also was forced to include a number of compromises such as massive tax incentives, not to mention the fact that it was undersized by perhaps two to three times what would be required to really jumpstart the economy.

As for the tax cuts, I would have made the same decision. Republicans were yet again playing politics, wanting more money for rich people. They essentially held the unemployed hostage until Obama signed the extension of the tax cuts. Obama was forced to do it, otherwise millions would have lost their unemployment benefits. He probably prevented a new Great Depression in doing so. Not that you likely care. Obama's an evil socialist and the country's about to fall apart under his watch... :uhh:
 
  • #69
Pengwuino said:
But that's what you're implying.

You still haven't answered my question. I find your notion of keeping a candidate because it's too much of a hassle to change a bit silly. Why aren't you defending this notion beyond situations that are convenient for yourself?

I'm not sure if you're reading comprehension is challenged or you're just having trouble putting two different posts together. Do I really have to repeat myself or will you make an effort to reread my posts? If you're not going to make the effort, then it's pointless to even respond to your posts...

I find your attitude insulting.

Ok, so backhanded comments, personal feelings, and anecdotes about your family. These

Health premiums HAVE gone up, was I suppose to argue that they haven't?

You saw the data Gokul posted... can you see how your "argument" is misleading?
 
  • #70
WhoWee said:
Care to elaborate and support with specifics?

Quoting Bara Vaida:

1) he signed an executive order limiting the ability of registered lobbyists to get jobs in the administration.

2) he imposed new communications restrictions on lobbyists wanting to talk to executive branch officials on stimulus projects.

3) he banned lobbyists from serving on government advisory boards.
 
<h2>1. What makes Obama an experienced leader?</h2><p>Obama has over 20 years of experience in public service, including serving as a community organizer, a state senator, and a U.S. senator. He also served two terms as the President of the United States, making him one of the most experienced leaders in recent history.</p><h2>2. What were some of Obama's major accomplishments as President?</h2><p>During his presidency, Obama successfully passed the Affordable Care Act, which provided healthcare coverage to millions of Americans. He also implemented the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, which helped stimulate the economy during the Great Recession. Additionally, he oversaw the operation that led to the death of Osama bin Laden and signed the Paris Climate Agreement.</p><h2>3. How did Obama handle difficult situations during his presidency?</h2><p>Obama showed strong leadership during challenging times, such as the economic crisis and the rise of terrorist threats. He worked with Congress to pass legislation and implemented policies to address these issues. He also prioritized diplomacy and international cooperation in dealing with global challenges.</p><h2>4. What is Obama's stance on important issues?</h2><p>As a candidate, Obama campaigned on a platform of change and promised to address issues such as healthcare, immigration reform, climate change, and income inequality. As President, he worked to fulfill these promises and implemented policies to address these issues.</p><h2>5. How did Obama's leadership style impact his presidency?</h2><p>Obama's leadership style was characterized by his calm and thoughtful approach to decision-making. He valued collaboration and sought to find common ground with those who held different viewpoints. This helped him navigate through difficult political situations and achieve success in passing legislation and implementing policies.</p>

1. What makes Obama an experienced leader?

Obama has over 20 years of experience in public service, including serving as a community organizer, a state senator, and a U.S. senator. He also served two terms as the President of the United States, making him one of the most experienced leaders in recent history.

2. What were some of Obama's major accomplishments as President?

During his presidency, Obama successfully passed the Affordable Care Act, which provided healthcare coverage to millions of Americans. He also implemented the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, which helped stimulate the economy during the Great Recession. Additionally, he oversaw the operation that led to the death of Osama bin Laden and signed the Paris Climate Agreement.

3. How did Obama handle difficult situations during his presidency?

Obama showed strong leadership during challenging times, such as the economic crisis and the rise of terrorist threats. He worked with Congress to pass legislation and implemented policies to address these issues. He also prioritized diplomacy and international cooperation in dealing with global challenges.

4. What is Obama's stance on important issues?

As a candidate, Obama campaigned on a platform of change and promised to address issues such as healthcare, immigration reform, climate change, and income inequality. As President, he worked to fulfill these promises and implemented policies to address these issues.

5. How did Obama's leadership style impact his presidency?

Obama's leadership style was characterized by his calm and thoughtful approach to decision-making. He valued collaboration and sought to find common ground with those who held different viewpoints. This helped him navigate through difficult political situations and achieve success in passing legislation and implementing policies.

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