Life is Already Set: Creator's Movie Reel of Creation

[timejim]

Think of Creation this way. Everything that is going to occur has already occurred. Your life, others, the events in the Universe, they have already happened, we just haven't arrived there yet.
Creation is as a giant movie reel. The Creator has already made everything and all the events that are to occur. Each of our lives are in the reel. The reel runs at a set speed (time frames). What will happen in your life, say next year, is already on the reel, you just haven't arrived at that point yet. Call it destiny or whatever. The Creator can look backward or forward in the reel as HE pleases. HE can stop the reel if so desired. Our lives, from birth till death are already fully contained within the reel. The reel runs at the set speed (time) of the universe, as far as we are concerned. Everything you do throughout every moment of every day is already contained within the reel of life. Everything.

 

[br]

...and maybe you could find the script here.

I find these ideas beautiful, I am a little sad because I have little or no time to dedicate to these matters, but I guess that this is already in the reels so... no news ;)

Cheers from Rome
br

 

[Monique]

So I can just stay home from work tomorrow? Since everything is already set in stone, it must be my fate.. I know, I'm a spoiler

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by timejim
Think of Creation this way. Everything that is going to occur has already occurred.

There is a biblical hint that this is the case, if you put stock in the Bible. In Eclesiates it says:

"That which hath been, is now. That which is to be, hath already been, and God requireth the past".

I interpret that this way:

"That which hath been, is now" would mean that the past still exists, on tape or recording, as you say, because the first time it was lived through was simply the first playing of the tape.

"That which is to be, hath already been" would mean the events of the future have already been experienced by those ahead of us along the tape; our tomorrow is their past.

"...and God requireth the past", would mean that, since past, present, and future are all really the past, and because God "requireth" the past, then we can do nothing to change the past, present or future. We are observers, only.

 

[Monique]

How does one interpret "Tomorrow has not yet come", someone must have written that down too. I guess I'm not in a philosophical mood today..

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Monique
How does one interpret "Tomorrow has not yet come",

It seems to be an assertion to the effect that we don't know what the future will bring. Certainly true in my case.

 

[Monique]

If you listen to a tape that has been played several times, do you know which song is going to be next?

I automatically start singing the next song even though the one playing has not ended yet, EVEN if I didn't listen to the tape in years. I also still keep singing the chronologically next song when the music is played in random fasion, making the conditioning even more apparent.

This would argue against the giant movie reel. At least for me it would, since I don't get clear visions of the day to come

 

[br]

Originally posted by Monique
How does one interpret "Tomorrow has not yet come",

...summing with your previous post...

Originally posted by Monique
So I can just stay home from work tomorrow?

...I would say it's not time for you to stay at home yet!


...but I guess this is not fun, and I would add that sometimes the fact that there is a tape or whatever does not mean that we are allowed to play it, or even to have access to it... What happens, I guess, is that we are all, each one in her/his own way, to find if there is such a tape or not...

...but it's too much of philosophy, too bad I have to leave the place...

Nice (known or unknown) future to everyone!

br

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Monique
If you listen to a tape that has been played several times, do you know which song is going to be next?

My theory is that the consciousness that is "you" only gets one pass over the tape. Ahead and behind there are an infinity of consciousnesses all experiencing the "Monique" thread of the larger tape of life. No one of these consciousnesses has ever experienced the tape before.

 

[timejim]

Originally posted by Monique
If you listen to a tape that has been played several times, do you know which song is going to be next?

I automatically start singing the next song even though the one playing has not ended yet, EVEN if I didn't listen to the tape in years. I also still keep singing the chronologically next song when the music is played in random fasion, making the conditioning even more apparent.

This would argue against the giant movie reel. At least for me it would, since I don't get clear visions of the day to come

No it doesn't, the reel has always been there. What I was saying is that everything, even our thoughts and actions, is on the reel. However, our Vanity is such that we think we are in control of everything.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by timejim
However, our Vanity is such that we think we are in control of everything.

You say this like it's our fault. Isn't our vanity on the reel, too? I know mine is.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

God doesn't play dice?

No one here believes in free will?

What is the reel; the mind of God? We are God's dream?

When a moth is drawn to a light, it is destiny and not biology?

The purpose of this movie is only to amuse the creator?

Finally, how can I change the tape? I want the one where I'm the unopposed and beloved emperor of the world. In this one I’m only emperor of my office…and I’m the only one in the office!

 

[one_raven]

I simply can't believe that there is no such thing as free will.
One reason (but not the only one) is the for everything to be predestined, there MUST be a God who created it all.
What purpose would God have for creating an existence that has every minute factor (down to where a particular dust mote will land when it is freed from the tornado and where that dust mote originally came from) already planned out and he knows the ending?
It is absurd and pointless, not just for us, but for God.
Besides, if it is all planned out from the beginning why create the very real illusion of free will for the actors in the play?
Why not just have automatons running through the motions?
And it's not like he does it just to screw with our emotions, because all of them would be predetermined as well.
Even this post would be.
It's silly to think there is no such thing as free will, and serves no end but to limit who you are and take your power for granted.
I don't but into it.
Not a chance.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You were destined to say that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't think predestinaion implies a creator, just a big bang, or similar prime mover.

Once the billiard balls have been hit there's only one possible outcome. The balls have no power to change the physics behind their motion.

There was an episode of the X-Files about this. In the end Scully decided that free will consisted of the ability to control our attitudes and reactions and intentions even if we can't control the actual events on the "reel". So she would disagree with timejim's assertion that even our thoughts are predestined.

Anyway, predestination, by means of cosmic movie reel or biliard ball effect or any mechanism you propose, is a philosopical problem that has cropped up over and over again in every concievable form throughout the history of Man's thinking. The best advise I ever heard was from a zen buddhist author who said something to the effect that, if you think your life is a train running on tracks, don't stare down at the tracks running by. It will just make you dizzy. Look around and enjoy the wonderful scenery, instead.

 

[one_raven]

But it would have to be more than simple mechanical cause and effect because, unlike a billiard ball, I can stop in mid-course and change direction.

I actually used billiards in my explanation of free will fairly recently, but I can't remember if I posted it here.
-----------------------

In the book I am currently working on I relate the Determinism/Free Will question to a game of pool (8-ball).

The options you have are strictly limited by:
1.) the position of the cue ball
2.) the position of all the other balls on the table
3.) where your strengths and weaknesses lie in your pool skills
4.) whether you are playing high or low balls

One and two are dependent upon:
a.) every shot made in the game up to that point
b.) the idiocyncracies of the table (such as: felt thickness, type and wear; dynamics of the rails; balance of the table; etc)
c.) the skills of all the payers on the table
d.) coincidences not directly related to the game (such as: what kind of day the players had; how many drinks they had; etc)

Three is dependent upon far too many things to list.

Four is dependent upon the first ball sunk on the table, which not only relies upon the skills of (at least one of) the players, and luck (for lack of a better word). The results of the break are part skill and part luck, and the coin toss (if there was one) for the break was luck.

Now, it is your turn to shoot, and all of these factors have determined the situation you currently find yourself in.
Your options are limited, but you DO have options.

At this point, those who deny free will will say that what shot you take is determined by your perception of the table, how you have been playing that day, your perception of your skills, the type of person you are (like going for glory shots, or taking a safety), even what your favorite color is.

My view is that you have this table in front of you, you look at it and see all your options (you may miss a few), and based on that (influenced, to different degrees, by all the things in the above paragraph) you make a decision regarding what course of action you will take.

After that, your pool skills, mood, blood achohol level, luck, etc will all determine the outcome of that particular shot, then you go back up to the top again.

Does that make any sense?

 

[one_raven]

What pair of socks are you wearing?
What made you choose that pair?
It could seem as simple as, "They were the closest clean pair when I woke up."
But then you have to look at why they were the colsest clean pair...
What made you decide to wear all the other ones that are not dirty?
Why did you not do laundry last night?
Why did you buy those socks in the first place?
Did you go to that store with the specific purpose, or did you remember when you saw them on display?
Why did Bill (the merchandizing manager) decide to place them there on display?
What if Bill was out sick that day?
Why does Bill work at Walmart, anyway?
Something as simple as what socks you are wearing could be traced back to a million (conservative) points of decision made by yourself and people you have never met, some of them are not even alive anymore.
It was your laziness that made you choose the closest clean pair.
There are a million reasons why you are lazy.
However, you DO have the choice to act against your typical nature, and decide, "I want to wear red socks today, just because I want to." and dig in your sock drawer to find you red socks to wear.
Again, whatever made you decide that you want to wear red socks could have a million points of decision behind it, but you were not compelled to wear them.
Any choice you make can be traced back through the matrix of all of our interconnected decisions, however, at that point of deciding what to wear, you have a nearly limitless number of ways to go, and that choice, in turn, will effect everything else down the line.

Everything anyone ever does is influenced (not determined, influenced) by prior choices made.
Likewise, every choice you make will influence choices down the line.

(Edited for cleaner formatting)

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't see how anyone can really overcome the argument the believer in predestination always has at hand, and which Ivan proffered: you were destined to give that lecture on free will.

I've pondered, that, if it were possible to step outside of our lives to see the future, wouldn't this constitute a freeing of ourselves from life's railroad tracks? But it occurred to me that this incident would only be a part of a greater railroad track, constructed with a sharp bend, such that we were predestined to see what was coming in this case.
Laziness verses choice making is a different issue. You, as a more energetic billiard ball, may indeed strike one more at rest, imparting it with the notion to make more choices, but was it free to do that before your imput?

 

[one_raven]

What reason is there to believe that we have no choice as to what actions we will take after being struck by a billiard ball?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by one_raven
What reason is there to believe that we have no choice as to what actions we will take after being struck by a billiard ball?

Didn't you ever see that episode of Cheers where Cliff Claven got hit in the head with a pool ball? Frazier had to take him to the emergency room.

 

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by one_raven
What reason is there to believe that we have no choice as to what actions we will take after being struck by a billiard ball?

I don't think the argument is that you do not in some sense select from a number of alternative plans. The argument is that your selection of whatever particular plan you picked could not have been made any other way, given all the conditions leading up to that point.

I think Zooby put it very eloquently: "Once the billiard balls have been hit there's only one possible outcome. The balls have no power to change the physics behind their motion."

Likewise, we have no power to change the physics behind our own neural activity, which is the complex physical event underlying our own choices.

I think part of what makes the issue of free will so contentious is that our collective self-image hangs in the balance. If we accept that we do not have free will, we may seem to be reduced to mindless puppets at the whims of deterministic physics. However, if I accept my brain as my own (belonging to me), then I don't see any problem in seeing the activities of my brain as belonging to me as well, regardless of whatever it is that ultimately gives it its causal powers. So, in essense, I think one can refute free will and still retain a perfectly full sense of personal agency. The key is really how one identifies the self.

 

[timejim]

Originally posted by one_raven
What pair of socks are you wearing?
What made you choose that pair?
It could seem as simple as, "They were the closest clean pair when I woke up."
But then you have to look at why they were the colsest clean pair...
What made you decide to wear all the other ones that are not dirty?
Why did you not do laundry last night?
Why did you buy those socks in the first place?
Did you go to that store with the specific purpose, or did you remember when you saw them on display?
Why did Bill (the merchandizing manager) decide to place them there on display?
What if Bill was out sick that day?
Why does Bill work at Walmart, anyway?
Something as simple as what socks you are wearing could be traced back to a million (conservative) points of decision made by yourself and people you have never met, some of them are not even alive anymore.
It was your laziness that made you choose the closest clean pair.
There are a million reasons why you are lazy.
However, you DO have the choice to act against your typical nature, and decide, "I want to wear red socks today, just because I want to." and dig in your sock drawer to find you red socks to wear.
Again, whatever made you decide that you want to wear red socks could have a million points of decision behind it, but you were not compelled to wear them.
Any choice you make can be traced back through the matrix of all of our interconnected decisions, however, at that point of deciding what to wear, you have a nearly limitless number of ways to go, and that choice, in turn, will effect everything else down the line.

Everything anyone ever does is influenced (not determined, influenced) by prior choices made.
Likewise, every choice you make will influence choices down the line.

(Edited for cleaner formatting)

Maybe, just maybe, what we think of as free will is actually the creator re-arranging the pieces in his table top game. Say, the creator has a universe on his table top that he created. He is constantly changing the scenery and playing pieces for his entertainment. Perhaps he has other "allowed" players at the table, rolling dice to see who's turn is next, playing by a fixed set of rules, say like Monopoly. Just suppose.

 

[Artman]

What if it's both?

I am going to use the Bible for reference because it is the religious work I am familiar with. There are many points that support both points of view in the Bible. The strongest argument I have found against predestination is that the Bible specifically says that God hardened Pharoah's heart to follow the Jews leaving Egypt. Why mention a specific time that God intervenes in the thoughts of men and women if he is controlling all the thoughts of men and women? However, my Dad, who believes in predestination, can name dozens of verses to support his view.

So what if say Zoobyshoe's life has been predestined, with God seeing the future and knowing all that will happen around him, but say one_raven has free will. Could this work?

 

[timejim]

Originally posted by Artman
What if it's both?

I am going to use the Bible for reference because it is the religious work I am familiar with. There are many points that support both points of view in the Bible. The strongest argument I have found against predestination is that the Bible specifically says that God hardened Pharoah's heart to follow the Jews leaving Egypt. Why mention a specific time that God intervenes in the thoughts of men and women if he is controlling all the thoughts of men and women? However, my Dad, who believes in predestination, can name dozens of verses to support his view.

So what if say Zoobyshoe's life has been predestined, with God seeing the future and knowing all that will happen around him, but say one_raven has free will. Could this work?

Probably. I think somewhere in the Bible it says, "nothing happens that God doesn't allow". Also, to everything there is a season.

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
There was an episode of the X-Files about this. In the end Scully decided that free will consisted of the ability to control our attitudes and reactions and intentions even if we can't control the actual events on the "reel". So she would disagree with timejim's assertion that even our thoughts are predestined.

Lol, I remember that episode, every morning Mulder wakes up bumping his toe :P

There was also an episode on Startrek, where the crew was trapped in a time loop, or ground hog day

 

[timejim]

Originally posted by Monique
Lol, I remember that episode, every morning Mulder wakes up bumping his toe :P

There was also an episode on Startrek, where the crew was trapped in a time loop, or ground hog day

Scully never did quite get it!

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by hypnagogue
I think Zooby put it very eloquently: "Once the billiard balls have been hit there's only one possible outcome. The balls have no power to change the physics behind their motion."

Where I differ is that I don't see us as balls, but players.

 

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by one_raven
Where I differ is that I don't see us as balls, but players.

But the point is we work on the same principles as those billiard balls. We can change our minds, but we can't change the physical laws that underlie that process.

 

[kirkmcloren]

But the point is we work on the same principles as those billiard balls. We can change our minds, but we can't change the physical laws that underlie that process.

------------------
If we can change our minds then we can change our path, our destiny
Kirk


Genetics -- If your parents didn't have any children you probably won't either.

 

[sweetman]

time

As the Prime Mover is eternal everything is in the present. What one would call REAL TIME.

 

[LivingLife]

I find this definitely intriguing. I don't think it means that the Creator is controlling everything. That is, people still have free will. An they have already exercised it. And He has already pleaded with them. But we are experiencing all of this in this linear time frame because of where we are yet in time. Like we experience starlight. The star's light is "light years ago" -- but we are experiencing it now because of where we are yet in time. That's why someone can speak of predestination and yet still believe and know that freewill also exists. So if someone "sees" into the future -- yes, they are seeing into the future. But it's only the future because it hasn't happened in our sense of time yet. It's actually a part of the past! The starlight analogy works for me.

 

[Evo]

A five year old thread. Locked.