Philosophy: Should we eat meat?

[russ_watters]

Are we talking about pain here?

Of course, animals vocalize their pain. Well, some don't or can't, but most mammals, reptiles, and birds that I can think of can vocalize their pain (just step on a cat's tail). I don't think a fish can vocalize anything, but I could be wrong.

No, we're not just talking about a vocal reaction to pain, we're talking about vocalizing (explaining) the experience of pain. There is a big, big difference between those two things. OneEye explained it pretty well in post 712. That yelp the cat let's out can be related to any stimulus-response in any animal, plant, paramecium (you), etc. displays. It has nothing to do with sentience.

The other thing that gets me in this argument is the double-standard of the vegitarians OneEye pointed out in post 702: we're both above the animals and the same as the animals at the same time. We've been over this ground before (I said many of the same things 6+ months ago), but it is a long thread...

 

[hitssquad]

Vocalization vs verbalization

No, we're not just talking about a vocal reaction to pain, we're talking about vocalizing (explaining)

According to the M-W Unabridged, vocalization only has to do with creation of sounds. To verbalize is to "express in speech : name or describe in words."

 

[kirkmcloren]

No, we're not just talking about a vocal reaction to pain, we're talking about vocalizing (explaining) the experience of pain. There is a big, big difference between those two things. OneEye explained it pretty well in post 712. That yelp the cat let's out can be related to any stimulus-response in any animal, plant, paramecium (you), etc. displays. It has nothing to do with sentience.

The other thing that gets me in this argument is the double-standard of the vegitarians OneEye pointed out in post 702: we're both above the animals and the same as the animals at the same time. We've been over this ground before (I said many of the same things 6+ months ago), but it is a long thread...

Is the test of sentience learning? Also extrapolating that concept of danger to dissimilar situations?

I have seen animals exhibit more cognizance of danger than many humans.

Actually humans are animals -- and like all animals a huge spread exists in their mental acuity. Just because your experience with some bred down canis is representative of what the specie is capable of would be like comparing some bred down breed of human that was selected for slave characteristics. I feel safe in assuming self reliance and high IQ would not be bred for. But to say these "slave men" weren't cognizant of pain even though they had an average IQ of say 70 would be wrong.

 

[hitssquad]

Actually humans are animals

Human beings are members of the kingdom Animalia. Animal also means, "...one of the lower animals : a brute or beast as distinguished from man : any creature except a human being." (M-W Unabridged Dictionary v3.0.)

 

[kirkmcloren]

Human beings are members of the kingdom Animalia. Animal also means, "...one of the lower animals : a brute or beast as distinguished from man : any creature except a human being." (M-W Unabridged Dictionary v3.0.)

Well, I was pretty sure we weren't vegetable or mineral.

 

[russ_watters]

According to the M-W Unabridged, vocalization only has to do with creation of sounds. To verbalize is to "express in speech : name or describe in words."

Fair enough - wrong word choice, sorry.

 

[physicsisphirst]

That argument is flawed at its most basic level: Blacks are humans. Animals are not.

russ, what is flawed is this idea that because animals don't do things the same way humans do, they should not be extended them basic courtesies. however, considering certain humans have not done such a great job extending basic courtesies to other humans, it is understandable that this awareness may take a while.

But then, that's not really the purpose of that argument, is it? Its an appeal to emotion at the expense of reason.

the idea isn't to get emotional about this. in fact, it is actually an appeal to reason.

the difficulty you are presenting merely has to do with drawing the line. you figure that those categorized as humans should have certain 'rights' (for lack of a better word). yet the only criteria you are setting for those 'rights' is that they are human even though you try to admit abilities like being able to 'vocalize'. so if i find say a primate who can communicate (vocalize) their feelings say through sign language, you will still say that such evidence is inadmissible by virtue of the fact that the gorilla is not human. on the otherhand, you will claim that it is not necessary for a severely disabled individual to communicate (vocalize) their discontent by virtue of the fact that they are human. hence, all this has nothing to do with vocalization - it only hinges on whether a creature is human or not rather than whether they have feelings or sensitivities.


in friendship,
prad

 

[physicsisphirst]

So you are saying that you can round up enough people to boycott meat so that the meat industry will take notice and change their policies?

GOOD LUCK (it'll never happen)

actually it does happen and not all that infrequently either. for instance, protests against the veal industry have led several restaurants into eliminating veal from their menu. so if people say we won't buy meat at your store because you get your stuff is factory farmed, policies may change. similarly, protests have resulted in actions against foie gras.

No, I was hoping you'd say something inane like "turn dogs into vegetarians." It even SOUNDS stupid.

well i hope i didn't disappoint you :D.
dogs really are very good vegetarians. to think otherwise in light of the evidence and the reality is merely adherence to outdated beliefs like "meat is healthy". there is an adage, "you can't teach some old humans new tricks." ;)

Not my dog. Did you read what I wrote? he has allergies to these things. he must have a meat based diet.

well if your dog's diet is only meat-based then obviously there are things other than meat in it. hence, he really can't be allergic to these other things as you are trying to claim.

i feel sorry for your dog. don't you feel like it's cruel to deny him what he wants? I'll bet if you put your veggy food next to some hamburger meat, he'd head straight for the meat. Who's being cruel to animals now?

what a strange indicator of health! if you put some kids in front of an apple and candy, they may choose the candy first. i presume you weren't seriously expecting an answer to the question you asked though.

the grain and veggie based ones are bad for the dog's skin coat and teeth. it does have to do with meat ... i think it's "cruel" to feed a dog something that's not healthy for it to eat etc etc etc

it is evident that you have not looked and refuse to look at the realities here. dogs do extremely well on veg diets and their coat and teeth flourish. it's only some people who don't do too well with dogs having a veg diet. but then some people still think humans don't do too well without meat, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

in friendship,
prad

 

[learningphysics]

I think that this line of thought has about reached its peak. When we start asking what constitutes humankind and whether humankind can be distinguished from other species (a distinction so simple that even our insensible genes can accomplish it), we have left the discussion of ethics and entered into epistemology.

Can we all agree, as a fundamental rule, that we know the difference between humankind and other kinds of animals?

(By the way, a thumbnail distinction of remarkable utility might be: A human can be arrested and tried for murder. A chimpanzee cannot. This may seem a silly distinction, but if we can progress in the discussion, it will turn out to be a vital datum.)

I think you might have misunderstood where I was going with this. I was asking why you were extrapolating your experience of pain to other humans only... not to all mammals... or to all primates... but just to all humans. Wouldn't occam's razor dictate that the experience is the same for all beings (until we have evidence that shows the contrary)?

 

[physicsisphirst]

Because I am a human, and I know the nature of my experience, I most reasonably extrapolate that experience to others of my kind. But Occam's razor allows (requires?) us to doubt the existence of such experiences in non-humans - for precisely the same reason that we lay a moral burden on humans which we place on no other species.

the reason we lay this 'moral burden' on humans is because we recognize that other beings can suffer. it doesn't take a great deal of extrapolative power to understand that animals a) feel pain and b) probably have no more wish to feel pain than you or i do.

Examine the wild variety for a truer picture of their natural behavior.

if you take a look at masson's book, you will see that his examples are from animals in their natural habitat as well as from zoos, research labs, domestic situations. it is a very varied compilation.

Collations of elephant tears usually overlook facts like this - are, in fact, writings which uniformly take one side of the question. They look more like propaganda than anything else.

considering the variety of sources as well as the repute of the scientists involved in the book, i do not think it can be called propaganda. masson also shows that animals, just like humans can be quite brutal as well as compassionate.

But I do mind tendentious reasoning which concludes all skeptics as brutal "speciesists." (For the record, I also feel that this sort of slur slinging is not helping the discussion, but seems to have the aim of preventing open discussion. I would appreciate it if, in the future, we could avoid labelling people and instead deal with the issues.)

no one has been labelled - only the argument has. here's what i wrote (that i presume you are taking exception to): this is really a typical specieist argument just one step removed from descartes' animals are mere automatons who can't even feel pain ... i think you may be in too much of a hurry to complain that you have been labelled when in fact you haven't been.

in friendship,
prad

 

[physicsisphirst]

I was asking why you were extrapolating your experience of pain to other humans only... not to all mammals... or to all primates... but just to all humans. Wouldn't occam's razor dictate that the experience is the same for all beings (until we have evidence that shows the contrary)?

now that is a excellent usage of the razor!
in fact, that was rather along the line of voltaire's refutation of descartes' idea that animals really don't feel pain - he said that why would they have the same mechanisms as humans do and not feel the same pain. the argument (suggested earlier) that animals really aren't aware of their pain even though they are in pain is indeed curious.

Can we all agree, as a fundamental rule, that we know the difference between humankind and other kinds of animals?

i'm sure it would be easier to agree on this provided you can establish what specifics you want to establish differences on. for instance, in post #702 as russ pointed out, you claim that AR folks (who aren't necessarily veg, btw) say "a different moral code applies to humans than to animals - that humans are responsible to animals in ways that animals are not." Now are you claiming that this code should not be applied, given that you want to establish this difference between humankind and other kinds of animals? or are you claiming that this difference is such that humans can pick and choose when they are and in which way they are 'different' from animals?

while we are at it, perhaps, we can also agree, as a fundamental rule, that we also may know the similarity between humankind and other kinds of animals - stuff like neither appreciate being bashed around, kept in filthy cramped housing, having their throats slit while hanging upside down (or right side up) and several other things like that.

in friendship,
prad

 

[OneEye]

I think you might have misunderstood where I was going with this. I was asking why you were extrapolating your experience of pain to other humans only... not to all mammals... or to all primates... but just to all humans. Wouldn't occam's razor dictate that the experience is the same for all beings (until we have evidence that shows the contrary)?

Once again: I am not saying that other animals do not experience pain, but rather that we cannot confidently conclude that they are aware of pain - a distinction which seems to be eluding some of the participants in this discussion.

It is apparent that one can experience and react to pain without being aware of it (e.g., when one is unconscious but not comatose). Thus, the ability to experience and react to pain stimulus does not automatically equate to awareness.

Some creatures which are clearly not aware can experience and react to harmful stimuli. For instance, a sea cucumber will eject its gastric tract when threatened, and yet sea cucumbers, though sensate to some degree, cannot on any estimation be called aware - unless we are willing to water down the definition of awareness to the point of meaninglessness.

Here is my analysis of the situation: I am a human, and can not only experience and react to pain, but am aware of it. It would be unreasonable for me to believe that I am the only human with this capability, but not completely out of the question. Had I no other evidence, I would be justified in using (required to use?) Occam's razor to doubt the existence of something which I have no way to verify - to wit, the presence of awareness in my fellow humans. Fortunately, my fellow humans are able to communicate with me in ways which convince me of their awareness. Since the incidence rate of awareness in humans apparently approaches unity, I am justified in believing that awareness is a natural human trait.

I might question whether other animals share this capacity, but my observation of the profound and sweeping lifestyle differences between humans and other species - differences hinging on the voluble communication of self-aware messages among humans - leads me to strongly doubt the existence of self-awareness in other creatures. At the same time, there are animals which are clearly not self-aware, and so Occam's razor leads me to not assert what I cannot demonstrate - to wit, the self-awareness of other animals.

Finally, we have the double standard which says that humans, as aware creatures, should not harm other animals - while other animals are at liberty to behave according to their impulses. This is an argument against animals having awareness which is, ironically provided to us by animal rights activists, who have a vested interest in assigning awareness to non-human animals.

 

[physicsisphirst]

Finally, we have the double standard which says that humans, as aware creatures, should not harm other animals - while other animals are at liberty to behave according to their impulses. This is an argument against animals having awareness which is, ironically provided to us by animal rights activists, who have a vested interest in assigning awareness to non-human animals.

this really isn't quite the argument put forth by AR - though it is sometimes used to claim a contradiction. it's more like if we know that we as humans can cause suffering, should we not make an effort to not do so? i think AR is generally more interested in what humans do to animals (including humans) than what animals do to each other.

however, let's go with it anyway. so
humans are aware, therefore they should not harm other creatures and
animals are aware, but it is ok for them to harm other creatures.

so since both animals and humans harm other creatures, can we discern the degree of awareness from the amount of harm caused? is it possible that the more harm caused (except for sustenance, say) is reflective of the degree of lack of awareness? for instance, some humans cause harm for sport, entertainment, food (that they don't need or even eat). no animal seems to do this to the same degree. does that make animals more aware than some humans? on the otherhand, you have some humans who spend a great deal of time and effort (eg AR activists and others) to stop or minimize harm to others (animals and humans). are these people more or less aware than those humans who do cause harm?

or

is it possible that humans can be sufficiently aware of an animal's sentience to realize that it doesn't want to be harmed, but an animal has sufficient sentience to know that it doesn't want to be harmed, but not enough awareness (like some humans) to realize that other animals also may not want to be harmed.

anyway, since you seem to be interested in AR philosophy below are some nice summaries of ideas of several prominent AR philosophers. they show that there exists a variety in approachs, thought and rationale, but the goals seem to be fairly coherent.

in friendship,
prad

Peter Singer
a utilitarian approach in which there is no presumption of inherent animal rights, but that the interests of animals should be given proper consideration.
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ethics_singer.htm

Tom Regan
establishes the rights of animals on the basis that they have complex mental lives, including perception, desire, belief, memory, intention, a sense of the future and because an animal cares about its life, that life has inherent value.
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ethics_regan.htm

Carol J. Adams
brings a feminist's perspective to animal rights linking the objectification of women and other non-dominant humans to a similar attitude towards animals.
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ethics_adams.htm

James Rachels
argues that scientific knowledge such as the evolution of species and the heliocentric theory alters antiquated views of morality in which only humans have moral worth and that the ability to reason is not usually relevant to moral consideration.
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ethics_rachels.htm

Steve Sapontzis
uses traditional moral principles such as fairness, protecting the weak, the reduction of suffering cannot be limited to humans because suffering and pain are not exclusively human.
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ethics_sapontzis.htm

 

[OneEye]

while we are at it, perhaps, we can also agree, as a fundamental rule, that we also may know the similarity between humankind and other kinds of animals - stuff like neither appreciate being bashed around, kept in filthy cramped housing, having their throats slit while hanging upside down (or right side up) and several other things like that.

And here, you again make the disagreeable assumption of awareness in animals. "Appreciate" is an awareness term. We do not know whether animals have the faculty of awareness which allows them to make value judgments of that sort.

for instance, in post #702 as russ pointed out, you claim that AR folks (who aren't necessarily veg, btw) say "a different moral code applies to humans than to animals - that humans are responsible to animals in ways that animals are not." Now are you claiming that this code should not be applied, given that you want to establish this difference between humankind and other kinds of animals? or are you claiming that this difference is such that humans can pick and choose when they are and in which way they are 'different' from animals?

I am not making any claims about whether a code exists or should be applied. For the record, I believe that humans have a responsibility to animals which animals do not have toward humans or toward any other species, including their own kind. This is not my point.

My point is that the argument which says, "(1) Humans are merely another kind of animal, but (2) humans are not allowed to behave like any other animal, (3) animals are not obliged to behave like humans, and (4) humans have a moral responsibility to all animals which is unique in the animal kingdom," is a self-contradicting arguments. Point (1) is completely contradicted by points (2) through (4).

All I am observing is that the animal rights position is a self-contradicting one on this question. By now, this fact should be completely obvious to everyone. The question is, "What does one do with this fact?"

One might completely discard the ethical vegetarian/animal rights view on the grounds that it is self-refuting. And, one might say, "Humans are just another sort of animal, and since some animals eat meat (as humans, historically, have), then there is no particular moral weight regarding the eating of meat, and so we might as well live out our animal nature and continue eating meat. Fire up the barbie!" This approach might well be called, "Giving up on the issue."

Or, one might look for a better viewpoint which is actually consistent. I prefer this option. In this approach, we would say, "Different rules apply for humans than for all other creatures. This must mean that there is a fundamental difference between man and animal - that the two are essentially different - that man is more than mere animal, in ways which transcend physical nature. How provocative! Let's examine this fact, and attempt to comprehend this extraordinary difference." In this approach, one might or might not choose to be a vegetarian, one might come to various conclusions regarding animal rights - but one would certainly be regarding the evidence with the utmost gravity.

P.S. A request: Please do away with annoying terms like "typical speciesist argument". They help nothing, and make you look bad.

 

[learningphysics]

Once again: I am not saying that other animals do not experience pain, but rather that we cannot confidently conclude that they are aware of pain - a distinction which seems to be eluding some of the participants in this discussion.

Yes, I'm having troubling seeing the distinction. When you use the word "experience" I'm assuming that you're using it in the sense of feeling, sensation... not simply the body's reaction to a stimulus.

Is experiencing pain without being aware of it mean that the body is simply reacting to some stimulus without any corresponding inner feeling?

I think my definitions of pain, experience and awareness are different from yours. I don't see how an unconscious person can experience pain. Isn't that what anasthetics do? Render you unconscious so that you can't feel pain?

 

[physicsisphirst]

And here, you again make the disagreeable assumption of awareness in animals. "Appreciate" is an awareness term. We do not know whether animals have the faculty of awareness which allows them to make value judgments of that sort.

i don't see why this is disagreeable. all you seem to conclude is that despite their physiology, their reactions, and the awareness of many humans (which also include 3 decades of recent research) that animals are sentient, you can't be convince that animals have awareness.

For the record, I believe that humans have a responsibility to animals which animals do not have toward humans or toward any other species, including their own kind.

that's fine with me, but i don't think we can establish the level of responsibility animals have towards other beings. however, we can do a fair bit about ourselves.

All I am observing is that the animal rights position is a self-contradicting one on this question. By now, this fact should be completely obvious to everyone. The question is, "What does one do with this fact?"

well it really isn't a fact since it really isn't the AR position (though it may be a position some AR people as well as some non-AR people take). either way, i don't think the movement is in any great jeopardy somehow.

P.S. A request: Please do away with annoying terms like "typical speciesist argument". They help nothing, and make you look bad.

thanks, but i'll take my chances. :D (and i also presume by your statement that you do acknowledge that no one called anyone a "brutal speciesist" as you seemed to postulate earlier)

speciesism happens to be a very relevant and important term coined actually by peter singer. overcoming speciesism may be the final frontier!

in friendship,
prad

 

[OneEye]

I don't see how an unconscious person can experience pain. Isn't that what anasthetics do? Render you unconscious so that you can't feel pain?

No, the body still experiences pain - the neural signal travels to the brain, just as it does in a conscious person. And, in some unconscious states, the body may still flinch because of the pain signal. This is most obvious in a sleeping person. Pain is still experienced, there is an unconscious reaction to the pain, but there is no conscious awareness of pain.

Yes, I'm having troubling seeing the distinction. When you use the word "experience" I'm assuming that you're using it in the sense of feeling, sensation... not simply the body's reaction to a stimulus.

Okay. I'll try to clarify.

I think my definitions of pain, experience and awareness are different from yours.

Almost certainly true.

Is experiencing pain without being aware of it mean that the body is simply reacting to some stimulus without any corresponding inner feeling?

The difference is between sentience (the ability to experience something - literally, the capacity to "sense") and awareness (the cognitive self-knowledge of having the experience). A sentient being will experience and react to pain; an aware being will be able to contemplate its pain, and may decide (e.g.,) to choose the more painful path.

We easily have the technology to make an artficial sentience. Between sensor pads, stepper motors, a little circuitry, and some insightful programming, we could manufacture a little robot which responds to physical stimuli. (In fact, Nintendo has a new portable game console which is "sentient" and "responds" to touch stimuli according to these definitions.)

However, we do not have the technology to produce a truly aware automaton. In fact, I believe that this goal is essentially impossible, because I believe that awareness is intangible, immaterial - literally, supernatural. We may emulate and imitate awareness, but we cannot produce it.

A tremendous amount of confusion regarding these terms is to be found in books and movies of the science fiction genre. A significant part of that confusion comes from the hidden assumption that man is merely mechanism: That the whole of human nature is comprehended in the human body, and that all of human behavior is a product of physical actions and reactions. This view, though common and usually unquestioned, turns out to be the least likely conclusion given the evidence.

But regardless of that question, the above definitions of sentience and awareness are pretty much the generally-accepted versions (with, perhaps, a little local color added!).

Hope this helps!

 

[physicsisphirst]

some helpful clarifications in your above post, oneeye!
i have a couple of questions below.

A sentient being will experience and react to pain; an aware being will be able to contemplate its pain, and may decide (e.g.,) to choose the more painful path.

sometimes animals choose a more painful path. for instance, an otter caught in a trap will bite through its arm. a dog will run into a burning building to rescue its owner. some primates when offered food only through a mechanism that delivers a painful shock to a fellow primate, will choose to starve. does this demonstrate contemplation and awareness?

A significant part of that confusion comes from the hidden assumption that man is merely mechanism: ... This view, though common and usually unquestioned, turns out to be the least likely conclusion given the evidence.

i am inclined to agree with you on this. however, can you say more about what this evidence is?

in friendship,
prad

 

[russ_watters]

All I am observing is that the animal rights position is a self-contradicting one on this question. By now, this fact should be completely obvious to everyone. The question is, "What does one do with this fact?"

Obvious or not, I think they are afraid to acknowledge the flaw because they think it undermines their position. I'm actually unsure if it does or not: I'm not sure if I would respect the animal rights position more or less if the contradiction was acknowledged and logically argued away. But then, part of the reason for that is I've yet to see an animal rights activist actually try to deal with the contradiction.

 

[physicsisphirst]

Obvious or not, I think they are afraid to acknowledge the flaw because they think it undermines their position. I'm actually unsure if it does or not: I'm not sure if I would respect the animal rights position more or less if the contradiction was acknowledged and logically argued away. But then, part of the reason for that is I've yet to see an animal rights activist actually try to deal with the contradiction.

russ please see post #748 where i wonder why you and oneeye claim that this 'contradiction' is the AR position.
can you show me how you come to this conclusion? are there specific posts in this thread? does it exist in some book? does it appear on a website?

AR is very diverse with the ideas of several prominent philosophers. it would seem to me that anyone of those i listed in that post would have spotted this 'contradiction' if it really did exist in their philosophy.

i even made an attempt to accept and deal with the 'contradiction' anyway - just for fun.
i am reposting it below for convenience.
i would appreciate your comments on it.

in friendship,
prad


however, let's go with it anyway. so
humans are aware, therefore they should not harm other creatures and
animals are aware, but it is ok for them to harm other creatures.

so since both animals and humans harm other creatures, can we discern the degree of awareness from the amount of harm caused? is it possible that the more harm caused (except for sustenance, say) is reflective of the degree of lack of awareness? for instance, some humans cause harm for sport, entertainment, food (that they don't need or even eat). no animal seems to do this to the same degree. does that make animals more aware than some humans? on the otherhand, you have some humans who spend a great deal of time and effort (eg AR activists and others) to stop or minimize harm to others (animals and humans). are these people more or less aware than those humans who do cause harm?

or

is it possible that humans can be sufficiently aware of an animal's sentience to realize that it doesn't want to be harmed, but an animal has sufficient sentience to know that it doesn't want to be harmed, but not enough awareness (like some humans) to realize that other animals also may not want to be harmed.

 

[OneEye]

so since both animals and humans harm other creatures, can we discern the degree of awareness from the amount of harm caused?

(Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. I had meant to answer it. Just a little busy.)

The answer to your question is, No. Awarenesss is not defined as the ability or propensity to cause harm. Awareness is cognizance of one's state. When I am awake, I am aware (okay, so mostly). When I am asleep, I am sensate and reactive, but not aware.

You almost seem to want to turn "awareness" into some sort of measure of virtue. Evil people are fully aware. Dear little Binkie is not (presumably - anyway, we are not able to tell, and have reasons to doubt).

russ please see post #748 where i wonder why you and oneeye claim that this 'contradiction' is the AR position.

Here, for the record, is the contradiction in dialogue form:

Plato: I think I'll get a hamburger.

Aristotle: Don't do that! That would be eating an animal!

Plato: Is that wrong?

Aristotle: Yes, because people are animals, and so should not eat other animals. So killing an animal is a form of murder, and eating it is basically a form of cannibalism.

Plato: Oh.

Aristotle: Hmph.

Plato: But... Animals kill and eat animals.

Aritstotle: Yes, but you shouldn't.

Plato: Why?

Aristotle: Because you are a human, and so you should know better.



Okay?

 

[russ_watters]

I never liked Aristotle.

 

[physicsisphirst]

(Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. I had meant to answer it. Just a little busy.)

no problem - i am too and i do appreciate your efforts to make substantial and informative posts.

The answer to your question is, No. Awarenesss is not defined as the ability or propensity to cause harm. Awareness is cognizance of one's state.

perhaps i was not sufficiently clear previously in asking so since both animals and humans harm other creatures, can we discern the degree of awareness from the amount of harm caused?

what the question is asking is whether the propensity to cause harm is reflective of the degree of awareness. in other words, as someone becomes 'more aware' of the suffering of another being, perhaps that person will be less inclined to cause that suffering. similarly, if one is to cause pain, it is perhaps necessary to lessen our awareness (sometimes through outright denial) of the suffering of the other being.

a good example of the latter is demonstrated by a placard held by a black man during the 60's civil rights marches which read "I am a man". the idea behind it of course was that as a black he was not being regarded as a man by the oppressing faction who would naturally find it simpler to abuse and exploit a 'non-man' provided they could reduce their state of awareness sufficiently.

that is what i was getting at regarding awareness.

i understand you are busy but i am very interested in your comment from post #752:

A significant part of that confusion comes from the hidden assumption that man is merely mechanism: That the whole of human nature is comprehended in the human body, and that all of human behavior is a product of physical actions and reactions. This view, though common and usually unquestioned, turns out to be the least likely conclusion given the evidence.

i asked you what this evidence was and look forward to hearing what you have to say.

in friendship,
prad

 

[physicsisphirst]

Here, for the record, is the contradiction in dialogue form:
...
Okay?

no that's not okay at all.

you (and russ) are claiming that the AR position entails a contradiction whereby AR says


(1) Humans are merely another kind of animal, but
(2) humans are not allowed to behave like any other animal,
(3) animals are not obliged to behave like humans, and
(4) humans have a moral responsibility to all animals which is unique in the animal kingdom," is a self-contradicting arguments. Point (1) is completely contradicted by points (2) through (4).

(from post #749)

then you go on to say


All I am observing is that the animal rights position is a self-contradicting one on this question. By now, this fact should be completely obvious to everyone. The question is, "What does one do with this fact?"


my question to you (and russ) wasn't for a dialogue clarification of the above. here is what my question was again:

i wonder why you and oneeye claim that this 'contradiction' is the AR position.
can you show me how you come to this conclusion? are there specific posts in this thread? does it exist in some book? does it appear on a website?

since
1) you have worded the 'contradiction' and
2) you claim it is an obvious flaw in the AR position

i am asking you
what AR source you got this information from or more specifically on what grounds do you claim that this is the AR position.

once you can establish that for me we can take a closer look at your interesting 'contradiction' itself ;)

in friendship,
prad

 

[OneEye]

i am asking you
what AR source you got this information from or more specifically on what grounds do you claim that this is the AR position.

My representation of the contradiction is the summary of reviewing a variety of animal rights materials over the past ten years or so. I have not made an active course of study out of it; rather, I have merely gathered the information which came along to me. I should say that it only amounts to a few hundred hours of exposure to various animal rights communiques and summaries thereof (including, e.g. some of Dr. Singer's writings).

I do not claim to have exhaustively researched this. However, I do stand by what I am saying as being a true rendition of all of the animal rights materials I have seen. I welcome correction. I have, several times, presented syllogisms to you which show the inherent contradiction in the animal rights position. These syllogisms are open to the usual critiques: Either show that the propositions are invalid, or show that the conclusion does not follow from the propositions. The simplest one to take on would be the two-proposition syllogism in the dialogue. The conclusion there is an implied one: "Therefore, the animal rights view is inherently self-contradicting."

Personally, I think that you will agree with both of the propositions of the dialogue. And, the conclusion is a lead-pipe cinch given the propositions. But I welcome your critique.

what the question is asking is whether the propensity to cause harm is reflective of the degree of awareness. in other words, as someone becomes 'more aware' of the suffering of another being, perhaps that person will be less inclined to cause that suffering.

Here, again, you are mixing the idea of awareness (an amoral faculty) with the idea of goodness. The most obvious way of separating your mixture is to inject a sadomasochist - a person who exults in suffering. For such a person, an increase of awareness would facilitate an increase in suffering - which, to the sadomasochist, would be the ideal.

A significant part of that confusion comes from the hidden assumption that man is merely mechanism: That the whole of human nature is comprehended in the human body, and that all of human behavior is a product of physical actions and reactions. This view, though common and usually unquestioned, turns out to be the least likely conclusion given the evidence.

i asked you what this evidence was and look forward to hearing what you have to say.

It will be my pleasure to discuss this. Here are three observations:

1) It is well-observed and demonstrated that free will, as such, cannot be the product of mechanism. This should be obvious on the first statement of the case, but usually requires a little thinking through to really grasp.

2) The research is against it: Studies of behavioral correspondence between siblings show that nature and nurture together only account for about 50% of human behavior. Behavioral correspondence is somewhere on the order of 15% for adopted siblings, 20+% for ordinary brothers, 30+% for fraternal twins, and 40+% for identical twins raised together. This means that the most significant determinant of behavior is neither nurture nor nature. This is substantiated by the fact that twins raised apart have a higher behavioral correspondence than twins raised together - implying that the twins raised together consciously exercised their will to overcome both nature and nurture.

3) Humans automatically assign themselves to a different category from that of animals (as we have been discussing.) Far from being mere speciesism, this testifies to important essential differences between animals and humans.

This is a fair enough thumbnail sketch of the issue for now, I think.

 

[russ_watters]

If you disagree with our assessment of the position, could you try to clear it up for us?

In answer of your question, we've seen this position argued right here in this thread. I participated in the first 10 or 20 pages and it went round and round in circles because of that contradiction.

Real debate on the issue of why started on page 4, post 59:

I think an issue that has been only lightly touched on thus far is the lack of difference between animals and humans. That is to say, animals are not sufficiently different and therefore discrimination is not justified.

This is echoed by a number of people over the next few pages. The contradiction was first pointed out on page 5, post 61:

dan, so should we stop the cheetah from eating rabbits and other rodents? should we stop the eagle from eating fish from the rivers? can i ask how you feel about darwinism? in a sense, you are putting humans up on a pedestal by claiming we have the ability to think of the animals' feelings, which i think is modestly arrogant...we are animals ourselves, probably not much different then any other, thus it is instinctual for some of us to desire to eat meat...we are within the food chain, and as darwinism states, it's survival of the fittest...

But not only was the contradiction not addressed, it was re-affirmed:

Sure, the cheetah eats animals, and a raper rapes women. If you can use what a cheetah does to justify your actions, then by the same mechanism, I can use a raper's actions to justify mine. Obviously, this is absurd. One cannot use another's actions to justify one's own actions.

I am not making any startling or arrogant claim. It is rather obvious that we have the mental ability to consider others' feelings. I say that we should use it and use it consistently.

So there it is:

Quote 1. We are just like the animals.
Quote 2(3). We are not just like the animals.

Regarding late developments:

russ please see post #748 where i wonder why you and oneeye claim that this 'contradiction' is the AR position.

Here is what you said in 748:

this really isn't quite the argument put forth by AR - though it is sometimes used to claim a contradiction. it's more like if we know that we as humans can cause suffering, should we not make an effort to not do so? i think AR is generally more interested in what humans do to animals (including humans) than what animals do to each other.

But that's exactly the point! You ignore the other side of the coin! That's an oversimplification designed to avoid dealing with the contradiction. You can't just make it go away by not adressing it.

We know humans can cause suffering. We know animals can cause suffering. Why should we ignore suffering caused by animals? If you don't put out mousetraps for mice in your house shouldn't you also try to prevent your cat from catching mice? Eagles kill hundreds of fish a year - we had the bald eagle near extinction once, shouldn't we exterminate all of them?

Ok, so you say the AR movement typically doesn't address this issue - and though some people in here have adressed it, you have done a good job of avoiding answering it. If you don't want to answer my hypotheticals, tell me why.

 

[physicsisphirst]

My representation of the contradiction is the summary of reviewing a variety of animal rights materials over the past ten years or so. ... I have merely gathered the information which came along to me.

the problem with 'merely gathering the information which came along to you' is that you are taking bits and pieces and formulating your personal AR theory which you then claim to be the AR contradiction. you are assuming that AR has 1 philosophy which of course it doesn't as i tried to show you in an earlier post.

for instance, singer who is a utilitarian doesn't accept that animals have inherent rights. on the otherhand, regan has a more deontologic approach where he argues that they do. now, if i wanted to i could say "hey! look at that! 1) animals don't have inherent rights 2) animals do have inherent rights - guess what! i found a contradiction therefore the AR movement is fundamentally flawed!" (frankly, i think the above actually has a little more ooomph as far as a 'contradiction' goes than what you put together, but we shall see).

so what needs to be understood is that in anybody of knowledge there are differing philosophies, approaches and rationale even if the goals are more or less the same - the AR movement isn't any different (neither is even physics for that matter). still, never have i seen the 4 point compilation you admit to having put together though i won't argue that it hasn't been done before by somebody (perhaps even in the AR movement).

I do not claim to have exhaustively researched this. However, I do stand by what I am saying as being a true rendition of all of the animal rights materials I have seen.

well it really can't be a true rendition of the AR movement - only a true compilation by you.

The simplest one to take on would be the two-proposition syllogism in the dialogue. The conclusion there is an implied one: "Therefore, the animal rights view is inherently self-contradicting."

again, since there really isn't one single AR view, your statement of there being a contradiction has little relevance. saying that your dialogue represents the AR view hardly makes it so.

Personally, I think that you will agree with both of the propositions of the dialogue. And, the conclusion is a lead-pipe cinch given the propositions. But I welcome your critique.

i think the dialogue is cleverly constructed and it does make the point you are trying to get across, but it really is not the AR stance. it may be useful for an AR activist to examine it though.

i'll respond to the rest of your comments in subsequent posts after some of this is cleared up.

in friendship,
prad

 

[physicsisphirst]

If you disagree with our assessment of the position, could you try to clear it up for us?

i will try and thank you for going back in the thread and digging up the stuff.

You can't just make it go away by not adressing it.

well i did address somewhat by pointing out that it really can't be taken as the AR view. now if you say that some ARists maintain that view then we can ask those how they would explain the 'contradiction'. perhaps, dissident dan would be willing to elaborate on it further.

in any case, i will take a different stab at it in my next post so rest assured that i am not trying to avoid it - in fact, quite the contrary.

but first ...

Why should we ignore suffering caused by animals? [/quote]
i'm not sure we do ignore it - but it may depend on what that suffering is. for instance, if a cheetah kills for food it would seem inappropriate to stop it unless you could get it a large supply of veg catfood. if a human kills for sustenance as may happen in situations where it may be impossible to find suitable crops then again it would seem inappropriate to stop this. however, the vast majority of humans who eat meat don't kill for food (though many may kill themselves with it) - in fact, they get the factory farms to do the whole dirty thing for them. this is probably why AR groups (and small farmers in fact) target this sort of killing especially in light of the reality that this same majority of humans have no need whatsoever to eat meat since there are so many alternatives available. (i hope this also answers the fish-eagle and mice-cat questions - and btw we do stop our cat from catching mice or birds since around here we are not supposed to let cats stray).

you have done a good job of avoiding answering it.

i hope it is clear to you that your 'it' is not being avoided at all. if you find an answer insufficient, please say why and i'll try again.

in friendship,
prad

 

[Dissident Dan]

This "contradiction" has already been discussed before, if I remember correctly.

The case is that humans and other animals have very similar capacity for experience-pleasure and suffering, and, regardless of how similar our experiences are, we all do experience. That similarity is why we should treat other species of animals similarly to how should treat other humans, in that we should respect them as beings that can experience and take their interests into consideration.

The differences between humans and other animals that are relevant here are that we are so much more intelligent and that we, being humans ourselves, can communicate with each other much better than we can with other species. This means that we have better ability to consider the ethical effects of our actions upon others (including other species) than do members of other species. We can discuss amongst ourselves and try to persuade each other. We cannot do that with members of other species, except perhaps in very limited ways with other primates (and maybe dolphines, porpoises).

To sum up, we (humans and other animal species) are similar in that we all have the ability to experience. We are different in that we have much greater cognitive ability. This gives give rise to the differences in hopes that AR people have for the behavior of humans and the behavior of other animals--not arbitrary discrimination, but discrimination based on relevant differences.

(Note: I know that there are some organisms that are technically animals that do not experience, such as sponges. I am not including them when I refer to "animals" in this post. The term "animal" is used for simplicity.)

 

[physicsisphirst]

the contracontradiction

My representation of the contradiction

so let's look at the 'contradiction' you created:


(1) Humans are merely another kind of animal, but
(2) humans are not allowed to behave like any other animal,
(3) animals are not obliged to behave like humans, and
(4) humans have a moral responsibility to all animals which is unique in the animal kingdom," is a self-contradicting arguments. Point (1) is completely contradicted by points (2) through (4).


your statements just don't jive together as you'll see.

(1) says that humans are part of the set of animals and therefore a subset of the set animals
(2) says that the particular subset of animals, known as humans should not, for whatever reason, behave like other subsets of the set animals such as cats or whales

both the above are quite reasonable and logical because humans can be considered part of the animal kingdom and there is no reason to expect that anyone subset of the set animals should behave like another (even individuals don't)

(3) results in a problem, because it is rather meaningless to say that the set of animals are not obliged to behave like its own subset humans - that's a roundabout way of saying that humans aren't obliged to behave like humans. what i think you need to say is that all subsets of the set animals that are not the subset humans are not obliged to behave as humans.

so, after the modification, this too makes sense and is quite consistent with (1) and (2)

(4) now is perfectly ok too because the subset humans has been given a particular behavioral criteria that is different from other subsets and it still remains within the set animals.

the problem that created your 'contradiction' stemmed from

a) making humans part of animals then
b) giving humans behavioral criteria distinct from other members also part of animals then wanting
c) that all animals (which must therefore include humans) not have that behavioral criteria

if you say that all animals are not obliged to follow the human behavioral criteria, then you must also accept that humans (since they are part of animals) don't need to follow the same criteria you gave them in the first place.

alternatively, you say humans, who are part of animals, must behave a certain way. then you say that animals don't need to behave in that same way somehow removing humans from being part of animals at that moment. but since humans are part of animals (by your first statement), you must either accept that as animals they do not need to behave the way they used to or you must modify your "animals are not obliged to behave like humans" to "non-human animals are not obliged to behave like humans".

so it is really your inconsistent formulation that made you think there was a contradiction.

in friendship,
prad

 

[learningphysics]

I think the discussion will go along better if we can rewrite this statement more specifically:
1) Humans are merely another animal.

with another. The statement is trying to say something more than just "Humans are animals" but what exactly...

It is like saying "1 is merely another positive integer". The statement is trying to say something more than just "1 is a positive integer", but what exactly?

I believe something like "Humans are not unique in their awareness of pain and morality." (or something of this sort, that is more specific)

 

[OneEye]

I think the discussion will go along better if we can rewrite this statement more specifically:
1) Humans are merely another animal.

with another. The statement is trying to say something more than just "Humans are animals" but what exactly...

It is like saying "1 is merely another positive integer". The statement is trying to say something more than just "1 is a positive integer", but what exactly?

I believe something like "Humans are not unique in their awareness of pain and morality." (or something of this sort, that is more specific)

I am glad to see you working your way through this. Others might give up. Stick to it!

First, as to your complaint, "This is not an animal rights position": Yes, I know that this statement of contradicition is not an animals rights statement. No-one wants to knowingly hold a self-contradictory position. But I am not misrepresenting the animal rights position if I use facts which came from the animal rights database and show that they produce a self-contradicting view. (BTW, I have written Dr. Singer about this, and am awaiting a reply.)

My method is simple syllogism - freshman logic techniques which we all should be aware of. I am not engaging in misdirection here. I am simply arranging propositions syllogistically, and showing that they produce a self-refuting thought system. Rather than complaining that I am not using a "real animal rights position", I would like you to deal with the logic in the usual way: Either demonstrate that the premisses are not true, or show that the syllogism is badly-formed. So far, you have agreed with all of the premisses, so you will have to show that my construct is invalid - unless you want to go back and revisit the premisses (which you seem want to do in this latest message). You cannot show that my constuction is invalid by observing that some of the premisses contradict each other, since this would simply be agreeing with my conclusion.

I would like you to either agree or disagree with the following:

Humans are merely animals.​

That is to say, "Humans are nothing more and nothing less than members of the kingdom Animalia (i.e., there is no reason to believe the 'speciesist' claim that humans are fundamentally different from the animals.)"

Second, observe the following syllogism, the converse of previous syllogisms:

1. Humans are merely another kind of animal.
2. Some animals kill and eat other animals.
   ----------------------------------------------------------
3. Humans may kill and eat other animals.

I welcome your reflections on this.

P.S. We are now entering into the "drudgery" stage of the discussion. I will endeavor to make this stage as interesting and entertaining as I can.

 

[learningphysics]

I would like you to either agree or disagree with the following:

Humans are merely animals.​

That is to say, "Humans are nothing more and nothing less than members of the kingdom Animalia (i.e., there is no reason to believe the 'speciesist' claim that humans are fundamentally different from the animals.)"

This is still unclear to me. Is this statement equivalent to "Humans are animals". If so then yes I agree with the statement. Check out physicsphirst post. If the first statement is taken as this then there is no contradiction.

What exactly is a "fundamental difference"? Every species is unique and can be taken to be fundamentally different.

Also, what exactly does it mean to be "more than another species" or "less than another species"?

I'm restating your argument here:
"
(1) Humans are merely another kind of animal, but
(2) humans are not allowed to behave like any other animal,
(3) animals are not obliged to behave like humans, and
(4) humans have a moral responsibility to all animals which is unique in the animal kingdom," is a self-contradicting arguments. Point (1) is completely contradicted by points (2) through (4).
"

Until 1) is rewritten, I'll take it to say: "Humans are animals". As physicsphirst points out 2, 3 and 4 don't contradict 1.

I'm enjoying discussing this. Seems like we're getting to the nuts and bolts of the issue.

 

[physicsisphirst]

My method is simple syllogism - freshman logic techniques which we all should be aware of. I am not engaging in misdirection here.

...

P.S. We are now entering into the "drudgery" stage of the discussion. I will endeavor to make this stage as interesting and entertaining as I can.

i don't know who you directed this to oneeye, since you quoted learningphysics, but i presume it was directed to me. there is no need to be entertaining though it is thoughtful of you to want to be and thanks for your encouragement for my 'sticking with it'.

i also don't see why you didn't respond to my post #765 (where i do 'deal with the logic in the usual way' as you ask) which shows that you have a problem in the way you interpret your creation. please take a second look at that post which shows you 2 ways the contradiction you claim really doesn't exist - it is your interpretation that is at fault.

here's another way to look at it that may be simpler to see.

let's start with your statements again:

(1) Humans are merely another kind of animal, but
(2) humans are not allowed to behave like any other animal,
(3) animals are not obliged to behave like humans, and
(4) humans have a moral responsibility to all animals which is unique in the animal kingdom," is a self-contradicting arguments. Point (1) is completely contradicted by points (2) through (4).

now let us ask if the 'animal' in (1) is the same as the 'animal' in (3) and look at both possibilities.

A. NO. The animal in (1) is the set of all animals (ANIMALS) whereas the animal in (3) is the subset of all animals that are not human (animals). we can visually represent this as

ANIMAL
- humans
- animals
also let C be the characteristic that humans must behave morally

now let's follow your creation more concisely:

(1) Humans belong to ANIMAL
(2) humans possesses C
(3) animals do not possesses C
(4) humans have a moral responsibility to all animals which is unique in the animal kingdom.

as you can see there is no contradiction here since it is perfectly ok for humans to possesses C, animals not to possesses C and have animals and humans both be part of ANIMAL.


B. YES. Let's say that the terms are the same. now we have to consider that animals is the entire set of animals which include human and non-human animals ie ANIMAL

so let's try it again:

(1) Humans belong to ANIMAL
(2) humans possesses C
(3) ANIMAL do not possesses C

at this point humans also do not possesses C because you have said that the entire set ANIMAL (of which humans are a part of) no longer possesses C. this of course prevents (4) from even appearing since you have taken the moral responsibility away from humans by (3). [note that (3) must override (2) or you create your own contradiction between the two, thereby mangling the whole thing]. again there is no contradicition.

here is why you thought there was a contradiction:
you left (4) in after you removed the moral responsibility via (3).


i hope this as well as post #765 shows you that your contradiction only exists if you commit 'logical heresy' as explained in point B. if you do not see this, say so and i'll try again.

in friendship,
prad

ps i'd be happy to get to your 'speciesist claim' and 'converse syllogism' (both which suffer from the ambiguity of what is meant by 'animals') after we clear up this present issue.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Please, let's skip all this and just read my post again.