Relationship between expanding universe and time

[00Svo]

Some background: I am a senior in high school taking astronomy, so admittedly i do not know much about the structure and physics of the universe. However this is something that I've come up with on my own. I spend a lot of time just thinking about the universe, and this is one thing that just came to me a few days ago. No other explanation for it really. Is there any sense in my path of thinking and the connections i make? Are there some things that i am misunderstanding? Any types of opinions are appreciated.


To begin, something i learned in class and from reading;
The most popular model of the expansion of the universe is a balloon being blown up. The surface of the balloon is our 3 dimensional world being projected onto the 2 dimensional surface. We cannot leave the surface of this balloon. As the balloon expands, our world expands in all directions at the same time. This is why there is said to be no center of the universe, since the surface of the balloon is round there is no middle point, no point of origin.

This i believe i understand, but I am not really 100% on it. The big bang happened and our universe is inexplicably expanding/accelerating in all directions. Great, but there's something missing about the balloon model. I begin to wonder, what does the interior of the balloon represent? I will return to answer this question.

I’ve read before somewhere that time is considered a dimension in itself. However time as a dimension behaves differently from the other three dimensions that we live in. Time, for some reason, is that only dimension that we can only travel forwards through, and cannot change our position or go back on. All other dimensions can be altered, but time seems to be this overseeing unchanging rule. It is relative to each point in the universe, and seems to be unstoppably ever-changing.

So the conclusion i came upon is what if there is a connection between time and that internal dimension of the balloon? What if the expansion of the universe is what is causing us to perceive time itself? What if the same reason we can't go back in time is why the universe continues to accelerate? The interior of the balloon is the dimension of time, the same way that time is relative to every point in the universe, the universe is expanding at every point simultaneously, the expansion of the universe and the passage of time itself are one and the same thing.

Or maybe I am just thinking too much. Where can i find more information about the topic? What do you geniuses think? Where did i go wrong? :P

Thanks for your time and for reading.

 

[alexg]

The big bang happened and our universe is inexplicably expanding/accelerating in all directions. Great, but there's something missing about the balloon model. I begin to wonder, what does the interior of the balloon represent? I will return to answer this question.

That's where your error lies. It's not a model. It's an analogy. In this analogy, only the surface of the balloon is considered. It is using a two dimensional ANALOGY of the three dimensional universe. So for the purpose of the analogy, there is no inside of the balloon.

 

[Mark M]

Svo, as alexg said, the balloon analogy is just an analogy. General relativity allows for a space to be similar to the surface of a 3-sphere, but not be embedded in 4-dimensional space.

Think of a one dimensional universe, the line making a circle. This circle has a circumference of 10 meters. Consider a single point x. If a 1-dimensional being on this circle traveled 10 meters from point x, it would find itself back at the position x. This essentially represents the same thing as a universe that repeats after 10 meters, but without being embedded in any extra dimension.

 

[00Svo]

I see. I had a feeling that may be where i was going wrong. Where can i read more about the expanding of the universe? I feel as though I am not grasping it properly.

@Mark that doesn't really help me because there is a center to the circle the same way there is a core to the balloon. What exactly do you mean?

Im not understanding how the universe could repeat itself without being folded in on itself. What would be a proper model of the universe if not a balloon? I don't see any other way to make sense of it.

 

[alexg]

I would suggest The Inflationary Universe by Alan Guth.

Mark that doesn't really help me because there is a center to the circle the same way there is a core to the balloon.

Again, he's just using an analogy to show how something (the universe) can be finite and unbounded.

 

[00Svo]

I would suggest The Inflationary Universe by Alan Guth.



Again, he's just using an analogy to show how something (the universe) can be finite and unbounded.

i understand the word analogy but i don't understand how it can be possible.

 

[phinds]

I see. I had a feeling that may be where i was going wrong. Where can i read more about the expanding of the universe? I feel as though I am not grasping it properly.

@Mark that doesn't really help me because there is a center to the circle the same way there is a core to the balloon. What exactly do you mean?

Im not understanding how the universe could repeat itself without being folded in on itself. What would be a proper model of the universe if not a balloon? I don't see any other way to make sense of it.

Your posts are thoughtful but you are overlooking some things.

First, you are mistaken about there being a center to the circle because you insist on continuing to regard the balloon as a 3D object when the analogy ONLY allows you to consider the 2D surface. To get to the "center" that you insist on for a great circle (or any other circle) on that 2D surface, you HAVE to leave the 2D surface and that is not allowed in the analogy. This is where everyone who has trouble with the balloon analogy has their problem. We live in 3D and find it difficult to truly conceptualize a spherical flatland. You would do well to check out the concept of a geodesic. A great circle on the balloon is a geodesic, and in some very real senses, a geodesic is a "straight line" even though our senses tell us it is curved. That is, on the 2D surface, the "circle" is NOT a circle, it is a straight line.


Another thing is that the concept of tying time to spatial expansion just doesn't work. Time is a linear flow (forgetting for the moment about relativity and time dilation, which don't apply here) but the expansion of the universe is not at all linear. In the first tiny fraction there was amazing inflation, then there were some 8 or so billion years of slowing expansion, and then for the last 5 billion years or so there has been an accelerating expansion. If the dimension of time varied widely as have the dimensions of space, there are observations that would not have their known values. It just doesn't work.

 

[Octavianus]

So the conclusion i came upon is what if there is a connection between time and that internal dimension of the balloon?

One way of looking at it:
The inside of the balloon is the past, with the Big Bang in the center. The surface of the balloon is the present, while outside the balloon is the future.

 

[phinds]

One way of looking at it:
The inside of the balloon is the past, with the Big Bang in the center. The surface of the balloon is the present, while outside the balloon is the future.

I think you're taking the analogy WAY beyond where it can comfortably go. Just stick to the surface of the baloon. There is nothing else in the analogy.

 

[Some Slacker]

The balloon analogy can be easily represented on a 2d surface that's right in front of you... Time for me to show my age (or not) but the analogy I think can still work if you think of a (computer) game like asteroids, if you go off the left side, you "wrap" around to the right side, if you wish to expand space (though not exactly right, its close enough) simply increase the resolution of the screen. This represents a finite universe that doesn't have an edge (so to speak).

 

[Chronos]

Actually, Octavianus, that is a very good portrayal. The current surface of the balloon represents the present. The balloon was smaller in the past and will be bigger in the future. Any observer at any particular time can only see the surface of the balloon. Now here's the weird part. When you look deep into space you are seeing the past surface of the balloon so it does not even look like a balloon, more like the graph of some exponential function that approaches zero as t approaches zero.

 

[phinds]

The balloon analogy can be easily represented on a 2d surface that's right in front of you... Time for me to show my age (or not) but the analogy I think can still work if you think of a (computer) game like asteroids, if you go off the left side, you "wrap" around to the right side, if you wish to expand space (though not exactly right, its close enough) simply increase the resolution of the screen. This represents a finite universe that doesn't have an edge (so to speak).

NO, that is not correct. The balloon analogy is NOT intended to represent a finite universe. It is ONLY for the purpose of showing how things all move away from each other. It is a very unfortunate analogy because it causes all kinds of misunderstandings, such as yours.

 

[Clever-Name]

The balloon analogy can be easily represented on a 2d surface that's right in front of you... Time for me to show my age (or not) but the analogy I think can still work if you think of a (computer) game like asteroids, if you go off the left side, you "wrap" around to the right side, if you wish to expand space (though not exactly right, its close enough) simply increase the resolution of the screen. This represents a finite universe that doesn't have an edge (so to speak).

I really don't like this analogy for another reason than what was pointed out by phinds. Your example suggests that the universe wraps around on itself, hence implying *positive curvature. But we know to high precision that our universe is flat and so this 'wrapping around' effect that you're describing is impossible.

*edit - said negative initially when I meant positive.

 

[phinds]

I really don't like this analogy for another reason than what was pointed out by phinds. Your example suggests that the universe wraps around on itself, hence implying negative curvature. But we know to high precision that our universe is flat and so this 'wrapping around' effect that you're describing is impossible.

Actually, that's not true. As you say, we know to high precision that our universe is flat but that does NOT say that it IS flat, so on a huge scale, it's possible that it does wrap.

 

[Clever-Name]

Actually, that's not true. As you say, we know to high precision that our universe is flat but that does NOT say that it IS flat, so on a huge scale, it's possible that it does wrap.

I suppose, but by that logic it's equally possible the universe is negatively curved and so it still wouldn't wrap around on itself. If the 3 options are equally likely, even though we currently measure flat, then there's 66% chance it won't wrap around on itself. I guess we'll never know though.

edit - I said positive when I meant negative. Got the terms mixed up. Negative = hyperbolic, Positive = spherical.

 

[George Jones]

I really don't like this analogy for another reason than what was pointed out by phinds. Your example suggests that the universe wraps around on itself, hence implying negative curvature. But we know to high precision that our universe is flat and so this 'wrapping around' effect that you're describing is impossible.

I suppose, but by that logic it's equally possible the universe is positively curved and so it still wouldn't wrap around on itself. If the 3 options are equally likely, even though we currently measure flat, then there's 66% chance it won't wrap around on itself. I guess we'll never know though.

A closed spatially homogeneous and isotropic universe has positive spatial curvature.

 

[Some Slacker]

NO, that is not correct. The balloon analogy is NOT intended to represent a finite universe. It is ONLY for the purpose of showing how things all move away from each other. It is a very unfortunate analogy because it causes all kinds of misunderstandings, such as yours.

Okay, I get it, I am certainly not of the mind that the universe is finite. I am of the mind that the universe has always been infinite.

But you are right I should have ignored the wrap, the analogy would still work then right? It seems like a simpler explanation than the balloon one, where the same wrapping occurs and has a 3rd dimension that can lead to confusion.

(and as far as the wrap is concerned if it happened sufficiently far enough away isn't it possible we could still see the observable universe as flat even though in the far far distance (far beyond our observability) that it does indeed wrap?)

 

[phinds]

(and as far as the wrap is concerned if it happened sufficiently far enough away isn't it possible we could still see the observable universe as flat even though in the far far distance (far beyond our observability) that it does indeed wrap?)

That would be a function of our ability to measure it. It is certainly conceiveable to me that it could occur that the universe was so close to flat that it was beyond our ability to measure it within the observable universe.

I don't believe that is likely to be the case and, further, I am not a big believer in coincidence so I am of the opinion that the fact that the universe is flat within out ability to measure it means that it IS flat. This IS just an opinion, thought, not substantiated by any facts.

EDIT: It alread IS beyond our ability at the moment, but what I meant was that it is conceivable that it will ALWAYS be beyone our ability.

 

[Clever-Name]

A closed spatially homogeneous and isotropic universe has positive spatial curvature.

Really? I've been under the impression that under those assumptions we use the FLRW model of the universe, which permits positive, negative, and 0 curvature in the universe.

 

[Garth]

So the conclusion i came upon is what if there is a connection between time and that internal dimension of the balloon? What if the expansion of the universe is what is causing us to perceive time itself? What if the same reason we can't go back in time is why the universe continues to accelerate? The interior of the balloon is the dimension of time, the same way that time is relative to every point in the universe, the universe is expanding at every point simultaneously, the expansion of the universe and the passage of time itself are one and the same thing.
.

00Svo you are not the first to come up with that suggested model:

Self Creation Cosmology - An Alternative Gravitational Theory , published in 'Horizons in World Physics, Volume 247: New Developments in Quantum Cosmology Research', Nova Science Publishers, Inc. New York, 2004.

9 A novel representation of space-time geometry
In the Einstein Frame, on the other hand, consecutive space-like slices produce a series of hyper-spheres whose radii are proportional to the age of the space slice chosen, whereas a timelike slice produces a conical model. The series of hyper-spheres that steadily increase may be re-arranged into a series of concentric hyper-spheres. The model is now that of a radial time universe. Treating time as a radial coordinate has several attractions. As a radial coordinate it has an origin but no negative values, time just did not exist before t = 0, the Big Bang. A child-like question may be, ”What is the universe expanding into?” The answer may be given, ”The future”. In such a model the expansion of the universe and the passing of time may be seen as two different experiences of the same phenomenon, yet what that phenomenon may be still remains a mystery.

Garth

 

[00Svo]

00Svo you are not the first to come up with that suggested model:

Self Creation Cosmology - An Alternative Gravitational Theory , published in 'Horizons in World Physics, Volume 247: New Developments in Quantum Cosmology Research', Nova Science Publishers, Inc. New York, 2004.


Garth

Hahaha, that is pretty awesome. I was shot down pretty hard in this thread.

What would be an actual model of the universe then if the balloon is only an analogy?

And I do not see why we would use a balloon analogy, and then say there is no center, and then in the same breath claim that the universe does not wrap in on itself.

Imagining it as a four dimensional structure just confuses the hell out of me.

 

[phinds]

And I do not see why we would use a balloon analogy, and then say there is no center, and then in the same breath claim that the universe does not wrap in on itself.

BECAUSE IT'S AN ANALOGY !

It's not intended to describe/explain ALL of the characteristics of the universe. That's what makes it an unfortunate analogy. It is open to all kinds of silly misinterpretations by folks who do not take the time to actually understand the analogy as it is intended.

Imagining it as a four dimensional structure just confuses the hell out of me.

Yes, as it does for most of us. That is why the attempts have been made to find analogies that explain SOME (or even just one) of the characteristics of the universe (such as expansion, no center, etc). The problem is mostly that some people INSIST on ignoring the limitations of the analogies (baloon, raisin bread, etc) and imposing nonsensical results which are impossible if you just pay attention to exactly what the anology is intended for.

 

[Garth]

Hahaha, that is pretty awesome. I was shot down pretty hard in this thread.

What would be an actual model of the universe then if the balloon is only an analogy?

And I do not see why we would use a balloon analogy, and then say there is no center, and then in the same breath claim that the universe does not wrap in on itself.

Imagining it as a four dimensional structure just confuses the hell out of me.

We can imagine such spaces by reducing down by one spatial dimension.

The balloon analogy only illustrates the spherical space curvature possibility of the Friedmann models, in which the cosmological density is greater than the critical or closure density, in which space is closed and unbounded.

If the universe has critical density then space is flat, open and unbounded, with a less than critical density it is hyperbolic (like a saddle, only the saddle point is everywhere).

These are the possibilities for a homogeneous and isotropic universe, which one actually applies is a matter of observation not conjecture.

The radial atomic time model also requires a linear expansion rate, but that isn't the consensus model.

I hope this helps,
Garth

 

[00Svo]

The radial atomic time model also requires a linear expansion rate, but that isn't the consensus model.

I hope this helps,
Garth

Im not sure about that. If we have a 4 dimensional universe then something we experience as acceleration in our third dimension here can be seen as a linear change when another dimension is removed. Can it not?

On the other hand the same way we see time as a linear change, whos to say its not an exponential change? What difference would it make to our lives? If it was accelerating, would we even be able to perceive it as human beings? We would continue to accelerate along with it, we would never notice a change. Would we?

Maybe we experience the universe as accelerating because time itself is accelerating. Our perception of the grand scheme of the universe is anchored down by the assumption that time is linear, which we have no real way of proving.



Phinds, i do not appreciate the indirect name calling. I said from the start that I am only a high school student, so please overlook my naivety.

 

[phinds]

Phinds, i do not appreciate the indirect name calling. I said from the start that I am only a high school student, so please overlook my naivety.

Fair enough. I get carried away sometimes. Apologies.

 

[Garth]

The radial atomic time model also requires a linear expansion rate, but that isn't the consensus model.

I hope this helps,
Garth

Im not sure about that. If we have a 4 dimensional universe then something we experience as acceleration in our third dimension here can be seen as a linear change when another dimension is removed. Can it not?

No it cannot, not from an inertial frame of reference.

On the other hand the same way we see time as a linear change, whos to say its not an exponential change? What difference would it make to our lives? If it was accelerating, would we even be able to perceive it as human beings? We would continue to accelerate along with it, we would never notice a change. Would we?

You have to define how you measure space and time, i.e. what rulers and clocks you are using. Time can only pass at a tautological one second per second. However you can compare different clocks and one system of measuring time, one clock, may suffer from a time dilation when compared with that time measured with another clock. This is what happens when one clock at the bottom of a gravitational potential well is compared with another at the top of the well.

Maybe we experience the universe as accelerating because time itself is accelerating. Our perception of the grand scheme of the universe is anchored down by the assumption that time is linear, which we have no real way of proving.

It would not be time that accelerates but the clock that measures it. If you can develop a comprehensive and consistent alternative cosmological that makes accurate predictions of the universe 'out there' in which atomic clocks behave (perhaps by atomic masses varying) in the way you want them to behave to produce your model then you would be onto a viable alternative to the standard model. This is what I have tried to do with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology . It can be hard work!

Garth

 

[00Svo]

It would not be time that accelerates but the clock that measures it. If you can develop a comprehensive and consistent alternative cosmological that makes accurate predictions of the universe 'out there' in which atomic clocks behave (perhaps by atomic masses varying) in the way you want them to behave to produce your model then you would be onto a viable alternative to the standard model. This is what I have tried to do with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology . It can be hard work!

Garth

Or maybe the clocks that measure it exponentially fall behind such that we have created the illusion of linearity. Also I do not plan on doing anything as extreme as that. (At least until i finish my college education) It was great talking to you though, you are very helpful and informative.

Alsoalso Phinds, other than that thank you very much for your help too. you are great :)

I am liking these forums very much so far.