Change in Entropy for Irreversible Processes

In summary, the conversation discusses the proof of dq = TdS for irreversible processes, which was proven to be incorrect. The conversation considers both reversible and adiabatic processes, and general processes, and concludes that the equation is not valid for irreversible processes. The conversation also mentions the need to invoke irreversibility in order to prove the equation.
  • #1
nayanm
31
4
I was following along in my Thermodynamic textbook and began playing with some definitions. In the following formulation, I somehow managed to prove (obviously incorrectly) that [itex]dq = TdS[/itex] for even irreversible processes. I was hoping someone could point out where in the proof I'm going wrong.

First, consider a both reversible and adiabatic process.

Since [itex]dw = -p_{ext}dV[/itex] for all processes and [itex]dq = 0[/itex] for adiabatic processes: [itex]dU = -p_{ext}dV[/itex]

We also know for a reversible and adiabatic process, U is a function of V only and not S, so: [itex]dU = \frac{∂U}{∂V}dV[/itex]

Setting the coefficients equal: [itex]\frac{∂U}{∂V}=-p_{ext}[/itex]

This equation involves only state variables and is therefore valid for all process, reversible or irreversible.Next consider a general process (either reversible or irreversible).

As before [itex]dw = -p_{ext}dV[/itex] but now U is a function of S and V, so: [itex]dq = dU - dw = (\frac{∂U}{∂S}dS + \frac{∂U}{∂V}dV) - (-p_{ext}dV)[/itex]

Simplifying: [itex]dq = \frac{∂U}{∂S}dS + \frac{∂U}{∂V}dV + p_{ext}dV[/itex]

Finally, since we know [itex]\frac{∂U}{∂V}=-p_{ext}[/itex], the last two terms cancel, leaving: [itex]dq = \frac{∂U}{∂S}dS = TdS[/itex] for any processes, reversible or irreversible.

But clearly, this is not true since [itex]dq >TdS[/itex] for irreversible processes.

At which point, then, should I have needed to invoke irreversibility?

Thank you in advance.
 
Science news on Phys.org

1. What is entropy and how does it relate to irreversible processes?

Entropy is a measure of the disorder or randomness in a system. Irreversible processes are those that cannot be reversed to their original state without some loss of energy. Entropy is often used to quantify the amount of energy lost during an irreversible process.

2. How is the change in entropy calculated for irreversible processes?

The change in entropy for an irreversible process is calculated using the equation ΔS = Q/T, where ΔS is the change in entropy, Q is the heat transferred during the process, and T is the temperature at which the process occurs.

3. Why is the change in entropy for irreversible processes always positive?

The change in entropy for irreversible processes is always positive because these processes always result in an increase in disorder or randomness. This increase in disorder leads to an increase in the system's entropy.

4. Can the change in entropy for irreversible processes be reversed?

No, the change in entropy for irreversible processes cannot be reversed. This is because irreversible processes involve a loss of energy, and it is impossible to completely recover this lost energy and reverse the process.

5. How does the change in entropy for irreversible processes affect the second law of thermodynamics?

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase over time. The change in entropy for irreversible processes contributes to this increase, as it leads to an overall increase in the system's disorder and randomness.

Similar threads

  • Thermodynamics
Replies
3
Views
797
Replies
1
Views
634
Replies
56
Views
3K
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
1K
Replies
16
Views
843
Replies
4
Views
819
Replies
22
Views
2K
Replies
31
Views
1K
Back
Top