Radioactive materials irrational fears

[roy2008]

I know this will sound nuts, because it kind of is, but I though maybe someone could talk some sense into me. I suffer from ocd and irrational fears about radioactive substances. I realize that we are surrounded by and constantly bombarded by radiation. That doesn't bother me. Nor does having x-rays taken bother me. I do however, have a constant nagging fear of coming into contact with a radioactive substance and not knowing it. Thus, then contaminating my home , children, etc. Logically I know this is pretty unlkely but would appreciate some other opinions. I know there are "orphan" sources out there and this frightens me. It seems that I am obsessed with coming into accidental contact with this stuff. Is this likely? And would I be ableto see contamination on my skin like a dust or powder? I have gotten to the point where my life revolves around this fear, and would really appreciate any ideas someone has to get over this. It is so bad now that sometimes just sitting in my home or office I think maybe sometyhing radioactive is on me or is touching me, and I can't escape this though and/or fear. Please help! Thanks!

 

[Vanadium 50]

You're already radioactive. The potassium in your body is partially composed of K-40, which is radioactive. Remove the potassium, and you die. So there's nothing you can do, I'm afraid.

One often unappreciated fact is that, unlike most chemical toxins, we can detect radiation at levels millions or billions of times smaller than it takes to kill you. This can skew one's perceptions of relative risks.

 

[daschaich]

Not to mention Carbon-14. K-40 is the larger source of radioactivity, but C-14 may seem more familiar and less threatening if you've heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating" .

 

[Alex6200]

You could keep reminding yourself that sunlight itself is a form of radiation, and that even the atoms in your own body give off radiation.

Moreover, you could look at government Environmental Impact Statements for nuclear power plants and see how safe the radiation actually is.

 

[Astronuc]

I know this will sound nuts, because it kind of is, but I though maybe someone could talk some sense into me. I suffer from ocd and irrational fears about radioactive substances. I realize that we are surrounded by and constantly bombarded by radiation. That doesn't bother me. Nor does having x-rays taken bother me. I do however, have a constant nagging fear of coming into contact with a radioactive substance and not knowing it. Thus, then contaminating my home , children, etc. Logically I know this is pretty unlkely but would appreciate some other opinions. I know there are "orphan" sources out there and this frightens me. It seems that I am obsessed with coming into accidental contact with this stuff. Is this likely? And would I be ableto see contamination on my skin like a dust or powder? I have gotten to the point where my life revolves around this fear, and would really appreciate any ideas someone has to get over this. It is so bad now that sometimes just sitting in my home or office I think maybe sometyhing radioactive is on me or is touching me, and I can't escape this though and/or fear. Please help! Thanks!

It is very unlikely to come in contact with anything but ordinary background radiation, like the C-14 or K-40 in the body. But that is very low activity.

Artificial (radioactive) isotopes are strictly controlled in production, distribution and use, but some do get mismanaged or misplaced occasionally. But they are not a form that can easily get in the environment.

I've worked around plenty of radioactive sources, and I have not ill effects.

Radioactive sources (radionuclides) are not used in the production of consumer products which you would find in your home or office.

 

[vanesch]

And would I be ableto see contamination on my skin like a dust or powder? I have gotten to the point where my life revolves around this fear, and would really appreciate any ideas someone has to get over this. It is so bad now that sometimes just sitting in my home or office I think maybe sometyhing radioactive is on me or is touching me, and I can't escape this though and/or fear. Please help! Thanks!

I don't know if this is good advice or not (should ask a psychiatrist!), but if this really bothers you, why don't you just buy a hand-held electronic dosimeter, with which you can check regularly that there is no contamination ? If you really want to get rid of all doubts - but it is going to cost you quite some money - buy a contamination scanner for feet chest and hands like the things that are installed at the entrance of a nuclear installation, which scans in 10 seconds or so whether you have any contamination on you.

Then you could also ask - I don't know if this is done for the public - to undergo regularly (once a year or so) a whole-body scan in a radiological medical center. This is the kind of examinations I regularly undergo for instance, just to see whether I didn't ingest something radioactive or so. I work regularly with radioactive sources, with beams, and with lightly activated materials, and never got any problems - very rarely there's such an incident, and if it is, it is of very low severity.

If you're interested in that kind of stuff, a random googling brought me this:
http://www.directindustry.com/indus...r-73876.html?gclid=CN7YmrHR5pMCFQRfugodNkNxWg

I couldn't find any pricing information.

 

[Haelfix]

This reminds me of an old joke people used to play on students (prohibited nowdays alas). For the physics 101 class or something like that, the lecturer would bring in a lump of depleted uranium in a container, and show it around to the students.

Then right when he/she is about to retrieve it ... oops it falls out of its container and the lecturer jumps back.

Works everytime, at least a few students will go white and think they've just been Hiroshima'd. Probably about the most effective tool to make the point about relative scale(s) in radioactivity.

 

[vanesch]

I would like to follow up on what I wrote in my previous post. I think that the OP suffers from being influenced by a lot of anti-nuclear talk (maybe he read too many books by Helen Caldicott :uhh:): radioactivity is invisible, and kills you without you noticing. Well, so do chemical poisons, and worse, biological agents like viruses or bacteria. So if you are affraid that, say, your desk is contaminated with radioactive substances, well, it could be also contaminated with deadly poisons, or with biological agents. In fact, the last thing is much more probable!

However, although we, as humans, don't notice radiation, compared to chemical or biological threats, radioactive substances are EASILY detected with instruments. It is much easier to detect the presence of radioactive materials (even in tiny and non-dangerous amounts) than it is to detect an unknown virus, for which you need a specific anti-body test.

So by all means, if this can relieve you, buy a dosimeter and check for yourself.


Oh, BTW, I moved this thread to nuclear engineering - I was hesitating between that, and medical sciences

 

[roy2008]

I really appreciate everyone's input and time with htis "quirk" of mine. I am feeling a little bit better and I just keep telling myself that logically, there is no way I would encounter any of these types of materials. I guess what scares me the most is the fact you can't see/detect it without instruments. But again, normal everyday people who don't work with these materials don't give radiation a second thought and neither should I.

 

[Astronuc]

Normal people who don't work with radioactive materials don't need to worry about them.


Normal people who do work with radioactive materials respect the fact that radiation exposure is a serious matter, and they use care in what they do, based on my experience. We are taught in school to be careful, and industry, people are constantly reminded to be careful.

When I visited sites where nuclear fuel is manufactured, the areas where there was hands on work on the nuclear fuel pellets was physically separated from areas where there was no radioactive material. Access was strictly controlled, and everyone would get scanned going out of the area - so no one would go out with contamination. In nuclear power plants, we got scanned going in and out.


Try not to worry. Like Bobby McFerrin sings - Don't worry. Be happy.

 

[daveb]

One other thing to remember is that it takes a great deal of radioactivity for most substances you might encounter as an orphan source, which is a sealed source, and not a dust/powder. Now, if you were to encounter one of these sources, open up the shielding to expose the source inside, and try to break it apart, such as what happened in Goiania, Brazil (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident" )

 

[roy2008]

Ok-one more nutty question/concern. Perhaps I just need to see a psychiatrist-but here goes. Sometimes at home or at work-I worry that plutonium or some other harmful radioactive material has found its way onto my desk, and then I don't want to touch things on my desk. other times, when I go to restroom to wash my hands, I can't get over the thought that radioactive material may be in the sink, and I am just spreading the contamination all over my hands as I wash. Is this insanity? Are these things even remotely possible? Your responses are greatly appreciated. Also-does anyone have any good ideas how to overcome irrational fears of radioactive substances? Again, anything is appreciated.

 

[Astronuc]

Radioactive substances are controlled during production and manufacture. One needs a license in order to obtain and use radioactive materials. When I was a student working with radioactive sources, we were required to check out and check in any radioactives source, which were kept in a locked cabinet in a locked room.

In the lab area, we passed a radiation detector that was present to detect any radiation on anyone coming and going into the lab area. Most of the time, it detected very low background, less than 1 count every few seconds. Even when sources were present several feet away, the activity was low, and we were careful when we handled sources.


Pu was produced in a limited number of places, and which are tightly controlled. One is very unlikely to be exposed to Pu in one's home, even if one worked with Pu, which is done with remote handling for the most part. There was hands on work done in assembling and disassembling of nuclear warheads, but that was done under strict security and control.

Just don't worry about it.

 

[roy2008]

Astronuc-I really appreciate your knowledge and expertise. You are helping me and I appreciate greatly. You seem extremely knowledgeable-what is your background?

 

[roy2008]

One other question too. I also always have a fear when washing, etc that the water is running through a smoke detector and being contamintaed with amercicium. Is this possible? What would happen if water was run through a smoke detector and then you came into contact with it?

 

[russ_watters]

How would water run through a smoke detector? Just don't put your smoke detector in a blender and make a smoke detector flavored milkshake out of it and you'll be fine.

Anyway, just to make sure one thing is clear, radioactive materials in nature don't come in macroscopic clumps, they come in relatively evenly distributed concentrations of particles per billion. So it isn't really possible to come across, say, a flek of dust composed entirely of uranium.

Now, I don't want to scare you, but perphaps to redirect your ocd toward something real: depending on where you live, there is a very real issue with radon gas. I happen to live near Limerick, PA, perhaps the most radioactive area in the country. Radon gas was discovered when a worker at the Limerick nuclear plant arrived at work radioactive.

If you have a basement, where there may be stagnant air, and you live in the eastern US (there are maps that show common areas where there is some concentration) it would be a good idea to test for radon. If it is found, it can easily be mitigated by a fan.

 

[roy2008]

Thank you Russ-I appreciate your comments. It helps show the absolute ridiculousness of my disorder which helps. Funny thing is radon gas wouldn't bother me. My father had it in his basement, and I have no problem going into his basement. Its been taken care of, of course, but neverthe less it doesn't scare me. I guess it is just the though or obsession of touching something radioactive or having it "on me" that bothers me. On another note, you and I share a hobby with our astronomy. Lemme ask you this, I am a beginner and use a $100 telescope that is very basic. It has brought me great joy, but I would like to upgrade to something bigger yet easy to use. Any recommendations? Say $1000 or under? Thanks!

 

[CarlB]

Roy, I think your fears are perfectly normal human fears and you shouldn't worry too much about them. We're supposed to be careful and crafty creatures and there is a lot out there that can hurt us. I'm afraid of heights, but I do my job anyway.

I had a friend in grad school who nuked himself. He was a grad student in biology. Their lab was using radioactive iodine as a tracer for some experiments. They had the sloppy biologist habit of eating in the lab. They checked him for radiation and discovered that he'd ingested radioactive iodine. The cure for this is to eat lots of iodine so that your body has lots of it and it turns over faster. Eventually you excrete it and no problem.

The problem with iodine is that it gets concentrated in only a single spot in the body and so exposure can hurt that spot (thyroid if I recall). The cure is iodine pills. I don't think they sell them (I haven't looked), but you can eat iodine-rich foods. If this makes you feel a little calmer, then great, here's some food choices:

kelp, yogurt, milk, eggs.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=69

And make sure you have iodized salt.

 

[Astronuc]

Astronuc-I really appreciate your knowledge and expertise. You are helping me and I appreciate greatly. You seem extremely knowledgeable-what is your background?

Nuclear engineering.

I've worked with a variety of radioactive sources as a student, both undergrad and grad. I've done different experiements with a research reactor, and visited several nuclear power plants. I've had several years of experience auditing the manufacture of nuclear fuel, including handling of the ceramic fuel pellets.

The amount of Am-241 in smoke detector is very small, and water should not be running through a smoke detector.

What would happen if water was run through a smoke detector and then you came into contact with it?

One would get wet.

CarlB's example is unique. Some folks to use radioisotopes, but realize that the student was checked. When using radioactive sources, we observed restrictions on food and drink, i.e. we did not take food or beverages into areas where we used radioactive sources. We had to put our hands, shoes and clothes near a detector when we left the lab area in order to ensure we were not walking out with radioactive particles.

 

[CarlB]

CarlB's example is unique. Some folks to use radioisotopes, but realize that the student was checked. When using radioactive sources, we observed restrictions on food and drink, i.e. we did not take food or beverages into areas where we used radioactive sources. We had to put our hands, shoes and clothes near a detector when we left the lab area in order to ensure we were not walking out with radioactive particles.

Yes, and I should add that I entered grad school in 1979. Since then people are probably more careful. The grad students back then were warned and they knew that eating in the lab was forbidden, but they ignored the rules. They didn't have the cool equipment Astronuc describes, which eliminates some of the need to have people follow the rules by catching them if they don't.

When I was younger, I could never figure out why my hands were so much more filthy than everybody else's. I always washed my hands before meals, and again afterwards. My friends didn't do either. I just chalked it up to my hands being naturally greasy or something.

Then I began making stuff out of glass as a hobby (kiln work). It turns out that my friends leave huge, greasy fingerprints whenever they pick up art glass. I no longer believe that their hands are clean. I suspect that if my buddy graduate student had washed his hands before eating, his contamination problems would not have happened.

I don't like heights and when I first was faced with going up a scissors lift I refused to work and insisted on going right back down. The thing swung from side to side about 6 inches. I was scared it would tip over and I would fall fifty feet to my death. So I went and did internet research and found that scissor lifts are involved in accidents, but they happen due to incredibly stupid maneuvers which we certainly were not going to do. I.e., you tie your scissor lift to a structure at the top, and then drive off still fully extended, but forget to untie it. Ooops. In fact, tying your scissors lift will reduce the amount it swings around, but is forbidden by OSHA rules because of this problem. And I learned that scissor lifts do not tip over without a reason because their very heavy batteries are at the very bottom of the lift. After learning about them, understanding made my fear mostly went away, but I still don't like going up them and if I have to wait, and don't have something to do for a while, I will think morbid thoughts about earthquakes.

 

[daveb]

I also imagine that the activity of I-131 handled was quite small. It typically takes 100 - 250 millicuries (depending on body mass) to completely ablate the thyroid, usually taken in 1 - 3 doses as sodium iodide. The activity they were handling was probably somewhere in the microcurie range, if even that (if the lab did not have an authorized user on hand to supervise, then it would have been below the exempt quantity, which is currentl 1 microcurie). Granted, since this was way back when, the regulations may have been a tad different, but that just means that nowadays, you wouldn't be able to get away with handling licensed unsealed amterial without strict rules being followed, and MAJOR headaches if you don't follow them and get caught.

 

[Andrew Mason]

There is a growing body of evidence that exposure to low levels of radiation can not only not hurt you but it can actually help. Exposure to radiation may actually "vaccinate" one against damage caused by higher doses of radiation. The phenomenon is called radiation hormesis. See: http://tech.snmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/31/1/11"

Since we evolved in an environment with background radiation, the cells in the body have an elaborate DNA repair mechanism that checks for DNA damage and repairs it correctly. A radiation event within a cell will simply break some molecular bonds. If the molecular bond is in the DNA chain, the cell has to detect and repair it. A poorly functioning or overwhelmed DNA repair mechanism will make more mistakes and could introduce mutations that could result in cell death or cancer. (The radiation itself cannot cause mutations but it can induce mutations due to improper DNA repair).

Just as a person's viral or bacterial immune system needs exposure to viruses and bacteria in order to function well, a person who is not exposed to radiation may have a poorly functioning DNA repair mechanism. Experiments on rats have shown that rats exposed to non-lethal levels of radiation will subsequently survive exposure to radiation levels that are lethal to rats that were not first exposed to lower levels of radiation. See: Section 1.2 in http://www.angelfire.com/mo/radioadaptive/inthorm.html"

If you are worried about radiation exposure, you can wear a dosimeter and have it checked regularly. See, for example this http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/occup-travail/radiation/dosim/res-centre/form/agreement-entente-eng.php"

AM

 

[russ_watters]

On another note, you and I share a hobby with our astronomy. Lemme ask you this, I am a beginner and use a $100 telescope that is very basic. It has brought me great joy, but I would like to upgrade to something bigger yet easy to use. Any recommendations? Say $1000 or under? Thanks!

Bang for the buck-wise, an equatorial mounted Newtonian is probably your best bet. Meade has some, but Orion is better in terms of price vs performance. For example: http://www.telescope.com/control/pr...ctors/~pcategory=telescopes/~product_id=24731

 

[DaveC426913]

On another note, you and I share a hobby with our astronomy. Lemme ask you this, I am a beginner and use a $100 telescope that is very basic. It has brought me great joy, but I would like to upgrade to something bigger yet easy to use. Any recommendations? Say $1000 or under? Thanks!

If you go shopping on your own: remember the one rule: aperature over mag. Ignore scopes that advertize high mag; mag is nothing. What you want is the most aperature (widest opening) for your buck.

 

[Homer Simpson]

I wonder if roy2008 is still out there? If you are, have you left your house lately?

 

[NUCENG]

One other question too. I also always have a fear when washing, etc that the water is running through a smoke detector and being contamintaed with amercicium. Is this possible? What would happen if water was run through a smoke detector and then you came into contact with it?

Irrational fears may be OCD but could be bordering on paranoia. Mental illness is a diseasse and can be treated. If you are concerned with the effect these fears are having on your life, do not try to fix them on your own. Please, at least seek professional help to evaluate your condition. In your initial post you already understood the concept of background radiation and were not frightened of that. That tells me that your fears may not just be about radiation. Intellectual information about how low the risk is from orphan sources and the rest may only result is shifting your fears to some other uncontrollable threat. Again, if you think it is a problem, it is.

 

[jakekazoo]

I know this will sound nuts, because it kind of is, but I though maybe someone could talk some sense into me.

you're not irrational, your fears are well founded concerning toxic radionuclides and other radioactive substances. and the radioactive plumes now being delivered to north america and the northern hemisphere. listen to the experts, they know everything, and if they don't they will promptly admit it and give you a reasonable explanation. it's not hard to spot the sellouts and those that try to greenwash every issue into the unknown grounds.