- #36
Schrodinger's Dog
- 835
- 7
Ms Music said:Pardon me for interrupting. I will stay out of the discussion now.
Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, just pointing out the flaw in the analogy.
Ms Music said:Pardon me for interrupting. I will stay out of the discussion now.
CEL said:This can be a cultural phenomenon. New agers claim that the soul can travel astrally away from the body and see things very far away, or simply see the inanimate self body laying on a bed. The media has diffused it so much that hardly anybody has never heard of it. In a state of stress one can hallucinate and see things that are in his cultural unconscious.
Schrodinger's Dog said:How reliable is this information, has a study been done? I mean it's possible that the auditory area of the brain is feeding the brain with stimulus, even close to the point of death, and like we do in dreams it is constructing a visual record according to outside stimulus. In order to test this you'd have to see just how reliable these witness testimonies are, and whether the information could have been picked up pre-op or at the time of the NDE.
W3pcq said:The one thing I always wondered is, when people die, leave the body, see other people they knew, jesus, or angels; do they see clothes on these people? When you see your grandma, do you see her face, just sense her presence, just here her voice? Some people claim seeing people wearing clothes and all. If this is the case, then I would say that what those people saw came from their own brain and its memory because a soul couldn't wear clothes.
Schrodinger's Dog said:I attended a lecture by a guy doing research into this at Cambridge. He said he had managed to achieve the same in patients as NDE by using various tranquillisers. Pity it was about 10 years ago and I can't remember most of it. Suffice to say he speculated that this was nothing more than a state readily achievable given certain stimuli conditions or lack there of. Probably the fact that it relates to our images of death is some sort of coincidence, but I can see how not fearing death would be a comfort to people anyway.
But none of the people that had these hallucinations are dead. No matter how close to death they were they are still alive. Our definition of death changes as medical technology advances.moonstroller said:I'm a very skeptical person but I'm not sold on life ends with death.
W3pcq said:Maybe when your "soul" leaves the body, you can see through the eyes of alive people. That would be cool. You could like see through everyones eyes at once.
Do you have some examples of atheists that sensed this God presence?moonstroller said:I belonged to a group of people who investigate NDE. I admit, most descriptions of the "Heaven bound" event, including mine, tended to be towards the cultural. However, some descriptions by atheists inferred "God presence," which I thought odd.
He could be honestly deluded or a prankster. If he was a prankster no explanation is needed. If he was honestly deluded, he could be unconsciously remembering images he saw in movies or photos, or facts he read or heard about.In the Army, I met a person who could astral project at will (during sleep). He impressed me often by describing situations I'd been in, and listing details only an observer could know.
Your posts are not of a skeptical person.I'm a very skeptical person but I'm not sold on life ends with death.
CEL said:Do you have some examples of atheists that sensed this God presence?
No. Not at this time.
He could be honestly deluded or a prankster. If he was a prankster no explanation is needed. If he was honestly deluded, he could be unconsciously remembering images he saw in movies or photos, or facts he read or heard about.
Remember the Bridey Murphy case, when a woman of Colorado in the mid twentieth century remembered under hypnosis a previous life as an Irish woman of 19th century.
Further investigation showed that what she remembered were facts of her childhood, when she lived across the street from an Irish woman named Bridie Murphey Corkell.
Of course there is a third hypothesis: he could really travel astrally.
I had my doubts.
Your posts are not of a skeptical person.
Ms Music said:That possibly the wave nature of a particle is the same (in a way) as the consciousness is of a human. I think that analogy was even made in one of the articles listed by the OP. I think the thought of a human having a soul is too often seen as having religious connotations, so not accepted as a posibility in the scientific world.
Evo said:But none of the people that had these hallucinations are dead. No matter how close to death they were they are still alive. Our definition of death changes as medical technology advances.
"medically dead" is the catch here. They apparently were not dead to the point where they could not be revived. Like I said previously, as technology and our understanding increases, the definition of death changes.moonstroller said:This is true as long as death is a place that you can step into but not back from. There is no evidence to support this assumption. In most of the strong cases for NDE, the patient was declared medically dead.
a2tha3 said:But back to the topic--Consciousness after Death isn't possible scientifically...unless you are defining death as your heart stopping.. SO I guess I am saying that It is like 99% bogus. I don't know for sure, but I am pretty sure there are some exaggerations that happen when someone says they have had an "out of body experience" (mainly due to the fact that their brain probably created it)
moonstroller said:T
I think this is a good argument that the consciences and brain are one and the same. It still does not answer the question of what is the force of consciences. It could rule out the heart as the seat of emotion :)
:)
Evo said:"medically dead" is the catch here. ...Like I said previously, as technology and our understanding increases, the definition of death changes.
W3pcq said:I don't think that rules out the idea that the consciences is just attached to the brain.
moonstroller said:Attached in what way?
Noone said:Physics needs logical and reasonal pruff and your theory about enterneity or anything of the matter isn't proven or will be so please once again see post number 2
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Noone said:Physics needs logical and reasonal pruff and your theory about enterneity or anything of the matter isn't proven or will be so...2
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Ms Music said:Just out of curiosity, do you guys believe quantum mechanics? That matter has particle and wave properties?
W3pcq said:I don't think that rules out the idea that the consciences is just attached to the brain.
Ivan Seeking said:Conclusion: It ain't heaven if you can't see grandma naked?
Why would you even see bodies? Why would you see? Even if we assume that the mind somehow exists beyond the brain and after death, anything that you experience would by definition all be in your mind.
moonstroller said:There was a medical operation where they transplanted a monkeys head( including the brain) to another monkey's body. The operation was a success and the monkey appeared to have the "consciences" transplanted as well (Seen on the discovery channel). Such operations have since been declared as illegal.
I think this is a good argument that the consciences and brain are one and the same. It still does not answer the question of what is the force of consciences. It could rule out the heart as the seat of emotion :)
I suspect that the brain ( I am an amateur radio operator) may be nothing more than a receiver of sorts; if we suspect that there is a force present that can transmit to it. Then again, perhaps it is nothing more that a computer with a predefined algorithm embedded within. Who knows these things?
:)
gareth said:this is more of an 'artificial intelligence' question really.
If a computer can not replicate a real living organism in it's entirety then no comparisons or analogies can be made by replacing humans as machines.
Sure if we had the technology we could make a robot that looks and acts just like us, but everything it does we have told it to do in some discrete way.
Would these robots have NDE's?
I doubt it.
Ms Music said:I do remember back in college, in psych we talked about being able to electrically stimulate a part of the brain to create the "light at the end of the tunnel" syndrome. But I think there is much more to be learned than that experiment alone.