Is Chi Real? Exploring the Concept of Chi in Chinese Philosophy

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    Chi Force
In summary: Anyway, I'm not sure what to call it.At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.In summary, an electrical current runs through your body and everything around you. Chi may be what the Chinese were referring to when they talked about a force called Chi. Chi is supposedly an electrical current that runs
  • #176
Ivan Seeking said:
These stunts are performed on a regular basis. Our own Doc Al personally witnessed a highly trained martial artist take a hard blow to the throat, as he stated earlier.

So what? I saw Dave Copperfield move the statue of liberty. I guess he really did it, then? Because I can't think of a normal way it could have been done, therefore he is God.

PROTIP: That's now how it works.

This is why I suggested Randi's Challenge. If any of dozens of apparently legitimate stunts can be duplicated, then I fail to see how Randi could provide a scientific explanation that is supported by published works. Less cases of obvious fraud, so far the ONLY explanations that I've seen are arm waiving.

The hell you did. I explicitly told you that a combination of adrenaline and tensing your muscles is all it takes. I gave you examples of people bending HAMMERS AND WRENCHES for fun, not claiming any supernatural ability.

And now you even have the proponent of this garbage claiming it's just adrenaline.

Open your eyes, man. Did you even go to Bullshido like I told you to? You'd have learned a lot from there.

EDIT: You ever hear of people getting their arms blown off during war and still carrying on? Not even noticing that it happened? Yeah, it's called adrenaline and the right mindset. There is nothing magical about it.
 
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  • #177
Poop-Loops said:
So what? I saw Dave Copperfield move the statue of liberty. I guess he really did it, then? Because I can't think of a normal way it could have been done, therefore he is God.

PROTIP: That's now how it works.

First of all, what is your background in all of this? What qualifies you to make any assertions whatsoever? Next, I have seen enough of this to be convinced that although tricks are used, there are still perplexing aspects of some of these demonstrations. Of course that is only my opinion, but I have yet see a detailed scientific analysis of the most impressive feats. What I have seen is arm waiving based on expectations.

The hell you did.

Watch your tone.

I explicitly told you that a combination of adrenaline and tensing your muscles is all it takes. I gave you examples of people bending HAMMERS AND WRENCHES for fun, not claiming any supernatural ability.

And now you even have the proponent of this garbage claiming it's just adrenaline.

Open your eyes, man. Did you even go to Bullshido like I told you to? You'd have learned a lot from there.

EDIT: You ever hear of people getting their arms blown off during war and still carrying on? Not even noticing that it happened? Yeah, it's called adrenaline and the right mindset. There is nothing magical about it.

I am familiar with all sorts of stunts, but what interests me are not the ones that are easy to understand, it is the stunts that seem to defy logic. Pointing fingers at stunts easily explained is a red herring.

Also, "adrenaline and tensing your muscles" is not an explanation. This is about limits and whether we understand how those limits are achieved.
 
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  • #179
Ivan Seeking said:
It's not the pain, it's the lack of soft tissue damage that interests me. And the trachea has very little protection via muscles.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/1118.htm

I was once clothes-lined while playing football, which amounts to a hard blow to the throat. This is not something to be taken lightly.

The same goes for some of these breaking stunts. Alright, there are tricks to help make these stunts possible, but to me that doesn't explain how this is ever done more than once by anyone person. I would expect the physical damage to be too severe for the stunt to be repeated. In some cases I don't see how we could even have enough muscle and bone to withstand these stunts without the arm snapping like a twig.

One can waive arms and claim that this is nothing but muscle control, but I still want to know how that is possible.

How can this be quantified?

One way to quantify one explanation is dp/dt (impulse)

You ever throw a hardball back and forth with a friend without a mitt? You very quickly (and naturally) learn that you have to drop your hand as you catch it, so that you slow it down more gradually. It stings a lot less this way than if you took the full impact, holding your hand solid against it (or imagine how moving toward the ball as you caught it would hurt more and possibly cause more damage).

When I was in martial arts, we did a similar trick for getting punched in the stomach (solar plexus, really) in which we'd tense and hold strong stomach muscles, and then let out a bit of air with the impact (which has the same effect as the technique for throwing balls without mitts). Of course, with this one you have to be careful not to let out too much air or you'll get winded.

I can contest that this did actually work for the stomach, and we all know about Muhammad Ali who would roll his head away from punches for the some effect.

As for the throat, It's possible (pot not probable, imo) that someone learned a technique where they could somehow flex their throat (or swallow) in a fashion that more gradually absorbed the impulse.
 
  • #180
Thanks for deleting my posts by the way. I actually provide good evidence and explanations and you dismiss (although I don't know who actually deleted them) them because why exactly? So much for open discussion.
 
  • #181
interesting
 
  • #182
Ivan Seeking said:
These stunts are performed on a regular basis. Our own Doc Al personally witnessed a highly trained martial artist take a hard blow to the throat, as he stated earlier.

This is why I suggested Randi's Challenge. If any of dozens of apparently legitimate stunts can be duplicated, then I fail to see how Randi could provide a scientific explanation that is supported by published works. Less cases of obvious fraud, so far the ONLY explanations that I've seen are arm waiving.

I've just gone through this whole thread and can't find reference to a blow to the throat. What evidence is there that it has happened (i.e., not just a trick) and how is it performed (i.e., where exactly on the throat has the blow been placed, and with what part of the opponent's body?) A wide enough blow, such as might occur by the full palm of the hand, or side of the hand, or a foot, could likely be stopped in a very muscular person by the sternocleidomastoid muscle, which is one that can be worked out and developed (it's the very prominent muscle in those thick-necked body builders). Combine tensing that muscle (a subtle tucking of the chin would do it) and then relaxing and bobbing the head back slightly, and you might be able to absorb a pretty substantial blow (still might hurt like heck, but hey, the bruises won't show up until the camera is off). There are a few other muscles running up to the larynx (Adam's apple), that might provide a little protection from a blow slightly below it. If it were more like 2 fingers dead center to the Adam's apple, that might be harder to explain.
 
  • #183
I am assuming this is the blow to the throat that everybody is thinking of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Or at least, the guys who are famous for it. The blows to the nuts are interesting, but notice how nobody ever punches the guy to the throat with a real punch? Some muscled guys do it, but if you've ever thrown a punch you know those things are pretty weak.

Hey, here's a Ki master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&NR=1
 
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  • #184
Poop-Loops said:
I am assuming this is the blow to the throat that everybody is thinking of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Or at least, the guys who are famous for it. The blows to the nuts are interesting, but notice how nobody ever punches the guy to the throat with a real punch? Some muscled guys do it, but if you've ever thrown a punch you know those things are pretty weak.

The only blow to the throat I see in that clip glances off to the left, and doesn't follow through direct to the throat at all. Looks more like the stunts staged for WWF than any real blow.
 
  • #185
The problem with a lot of these Karate types is that their punches aren't proper. The fact is, they don't know how to throw a punch.

Yes yes, I'm insulting a lot of people, but let me explain. A lot of Karate/Tae Kwon Do/Kung Fu schools are garbage pure and simple. Again, go to www.bullshido.net to see the kind of frauds being exposed.

The point is that Karate has been tainted with bad teachers and it's hard to find a good school. A lot of them teach you improper punches (proper being a boxing type punch) that don't really do much damage.

Moreover, you take untrained people, and they are equally as unskilled at punching.
 
  • #186
Moonbear said:
I've just gone through this whole thread and can't find reference to a blow to the throat. What evidence is there that it has happened (i.e., not just a trick) and how is it performed (i.e., where exactly on the throat has the blow been placed, and with what part of the opponent's body?)

Whoops, Doc Al made a comment that he had personally witnessed this and I thought it was here.
 
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  • #187
Poop-Loops said:
I am assuming this is the blow to the throat that everybody is thinking of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Yes, this is all based on some YouTube video from unknown sources. :rolleyes:

Or at least, the guys who are famous for it. The blows to the nuts are interesting, but notice how nobody ever punches the guy to the throat with a real punch? Some muscled guys do it, but if you've ever thrown a punch you know those things are pretty weak.

Hey, here's a Ki master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&NR=1

Going back to the basics: The simple fact is that there are worlds records for breaking bricks, and I have yet to see these demostrations explained by science. The breaks are done with and without spacers, and being that these are public demonstrations that require verification, I fail to see why arm waiving is needed to explain these feats.

In fact I would strongly urge any true experts out there who can perform these extreme feats to take-on Randi's Challenge. I don't think there is anything supernatural involved, but I seriously doubt that the mechanics of some of these feats can be explained, and if true, you could make a quick million bucks. Of course Randi may decline the offer.
 
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  • #188
Ivan Seeking said:
Going back to the basics: The simple fact is that there are worlds records for breaking bricks, and I have yet to see these demostrations explained by science. The breaks are done with and without spacers, and being that these are public demonstrations that require verification, I fail to see why arm waiving is needed to explain these feats.

I thought that all had to do with the way the bricks were made, placed, and the particular location and way they were struck so the bricks more easily gave way (and a lot of broken hands with misplaced breaks while learning)? I don't have any links or references, but seem to recall it being explained that way by someone doing a martial arts demo (actually, I recall it was someone giving a self-defense lecture making the point that martial arts wouldn't make us super-human, just buy us the time to get away and run).
 
  • #189
Yes, I quoted a grand-master earlier in the thread, but even he admits that some of these are still feats to be appreciated. Allegedly genuine world's record would require good controls, and in fact the only measurments that I've ever seen of the forces involved were I think in the range of 2000 lbs or more. Whatever the number was, it was difficult to understand how an inch of bone and a pound of muscle could sustain such forces.

IMO, some of this stuff gets rationalized away when there is no need for it.

Edit: In other words, just because some fudging is done that make the feat seem even more impressive than it really is, it may still be quite legitimately impressive.
 
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  • #190
Ivan Seeking said:
Yes, I quoted a grand-master earlier in the thread, but even he admits that some of these are still feats to be appreciated. Allegedly genuine world's record would require good controls, and in fact the only measurments that I've ever seen of the forces involved were I think in the range of 2000 lbs or more. Whatever the number was, it was difficult to understand how an inch of bone and a pound of muscle could sustain such forces.

What do you mean only an inch of bone? The way I've seen it done, the forces would be transferred up the length of the bones of the forearm. Even on a fairly short person, that gives you 12 inches of bone, at least. (Not sure if the upper arm is much involved or just the lower arm.) I think, if anything, the awe-inspiring part is that the human body can take such impacts and remain intact more than that there's anything mysterious happening.
 
  • #191
Ivan Seeking said:
Yes, this is all based on some YouTube video from unknown sources. :rolleyes:

LOL you're a riot Ivan. Combat Ki is pretty well-known and was in at least one mainstream documentary. Look at all the Google hits you get:

http://www.google.com/search?q=comb...=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a

You should actually be thanking me for supporting your case with this video, but whatever.

Going back to the basics: The simple fact is that there are worlds records for breaking bricks, and I have yet to see these demostrations explained by science. The breaks are done with and without spacers, and being that these are public demonstrations that require verification, I fail to see why arm waiving is needed to explain these feats.

Let me see them without spacers. All you've shown me is a grainy photo.

In fact I would strongly urge any true experts out there who can perform these extreme feats to take-on Randi's Challenge. I don't think there is anything supernatural involved, but I seriously doubt that the mechanics of some of these feats can be explained, and if true, you could make a quick million bucks. Of course Randi may decline the offer.

[annoying comments deleted by Ivan]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=208
 
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  • #192
Ivan Seeking said:
Yes, I quoted a grand-master earlier in the thread, but even he admits that some of these are still feats to be appreciated. Allegedly genuine world's record would require good controls, and in fact the only measurments that I've ever seen of the forces involved were I think in the range of 2000 lbs or more. Whatever the number was, it was difficult to understand how an inch of bone and a pound of muscle could sustain such forces.

Difficult for you doesn't mean difficult. Ever here of a "wave"? The shock travels through the body. Again, you're talking to someone who's actually done this, just in a lesser degree.

Did you watch the video I posted?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Av9bJ_6VSGc

Here's a boxing punch in slow mo:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3BzSkb6IbGs

Look for some others. You'll see the hit travels through the recipient's body.

PROTIP: There is no world governing body for "martial arts". Anybody can declare themselves a grand master and start their own school, and many do.

IMO, some of this stuff gets rationalized away when there is no need for it.

Edit: In other words, just because some fudging is done that make the feat seem even more impressive than it really is, it may still be quite legitimately impressive.

Impressive, but not magic like you seem to be implying.
 
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  • #193
Poop-Loops said:
Impressive, but not magic like you seem to be implying.

I said specifically and at least several times that I'm not claiming anything supernatural. If you continue to imply that I have said otherwise, you will be banned.
 
  • #194
I thought there were already some links in this thread... But I am talking about records that already exist. In case you aren't aware of it, not all of history is found on YouTube. And no photo or video is proof of anything, so I will have to so some looking for best sources. I will dig up some references when time allows.
 
  • #195
Ivan Seeking said:
I said specifically and at least several times that I'm not claiming anything supernatural. If you continue to imply that I have said otherwise, you will be banned.

If you're not implying anything supernatural, then what is it you are implying? You say regular physics isn't an explanation and even suggest that these people take up the Randi challenge. I'm really not understanding your viewpoint here.
 
  • #196
There is a big difference between claiming that there may be a mystery and claiming the mystery is explained only by supernatural forces - supernatural meaning [I guess] that something can't be explained, even in principle. The entire point of science is to explain mysteries. So to say that we have a mystery is not a call for the supernatural.

What's more, saying "tense muscles and adrenalin", or making vague references to waves is meaningless. This does not explain the biomechanics of the event. Now, I am at a disadvantage here because most of what I have seen took place twenty-five years ago, so I can't just pull references out of a hat, but I have seen enough to have serious doubts about the arm-waiving dismissals of some of these feats. And the records that I have seen online are in-line with what I remembered. So, as I said, I will have to spend a little time looking for the best references available.

Hoaxes and frauds are easy to find - they are everywhere - but a few or even a million hoaxes do not discredit the entire subject; nor does the fact that tricks are used to amplify the results. To me the questions are: What is the most credible evidence for the most extreme feats, and have they been properly studied or evaluated?
 
  • #197
As for Randi's Challenge, that is the obvious problem with the challenge: What is "supernatural"? There is no way to prove that something unexplainable is fundamentally unexplainable. It is a meaningless challenge. Or, he means anything that can't be readily explained. In the former case it is a fraudulant challenge because the words are meaningless, in the latter case he should be liable to pay-up for any of dozens of mysteries of science.

The simplest example of what I mean is our very existence. This cannot be explained by science, nor can we prove that a God made the universe, but unless Randi can explain the Big Bang, I think he owes me a million bucks. I submit it as proof of the supernatural - it clearly happened, and he can't explain it with the laws of physics.
 
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  • #198
In that case do you think this can be explained using simple Newtonian mechanics?
 
  • #199
I can't see the "magic" here at all.

This could be moved to General Discussion.

I would like this chat continue though.

We can't do the math, nobody strikes another with their full capacity, unless their life depends on it.
How do you measure that? It could be done but would, I figure, be unethical.

I'm with Ivan. There is a mystery for us to work on.
 
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  • #200
Jase said:
We can't do the math, nobody strikes another with their full capacity, unless their life depends on it.
How do you measure that? It could be done but would, I figure, be unethical.

Watch MMA matches like UFC. They get some nasty hits in there sometimes, and yes, they are going full force. The gloves they use are there to protect their own hands, so they can punch even harder.
 
  • #201
not everything that be is explained yet or ever will be explained scientifically spool poop.
 
  • #202
If you can't explain it scientifically then it is supernatural. Ivan is saying it is not supernatural. If it is not supernatural, can it be explained by simple Newtonian Mechanics? If not, then how can our bodies make use of non-Newtonian Mechanics?
 
  • #203
Poop-Loops said:
If you can't explain it scientifically then it is supernatural. Ivan is saying it is not supernatural. If it is not supernatural, can it be explained by simple Newtonian Mechanics? If not, then how can our bodies make use of non-Newtonian Mechanics?

Supernatural means beyond scientific understanding. This does not imply magic or anything, just not understood by science. Something can technically be supernatural now, and then become scientific later after science has advanced. Some things may be so far beyond the reach of science that they may never be understood scientifically yet that doesn't mean that it is magic.

Well actually I guess it depends on definitions and which one you want to choose. Firstly, nature, what is natural, and what is the limits of nature as we know it. Perhaps things can be above nature as we know it, but when science catches up, we will just extend the range of the word nature, and then it is no longer supernatural.
 
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  • #204
I don't really think there's something such as chi. It's usually something they don't know how to explain, so they use the mystery word -chi force or whatever. You might as well call it butt force.

It reminds me of taoist theory, they really thought that if you do not ejaculate, you'll acccess universal invisible energies, and that if you do ejaculate, right after, you'll fell weak, and in time you'll start to go bald and develop a gut . Anybody who has minimum knowledge of chemistry, hormones and biology, nutrition, etc, will disagree with "the universal energy theory" .

They thought that if you press on a point between the anus and scrotum, when you ejaculate, you will block a channel that let the energies come out. They had no idea that you are really pressing on the prostate, so the semen pretty much stays within the body cause you physically block it.
 
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  • #205
You bring up a good point. A lot of teachers these days simply explain chi as being proper body mechanics. This is seen in plenty of Aikido as well as Judo and Karate schools. The teachers who want to inject some mystical Oriental religion into it will still insist on it being magic, but it's becoming more common to just hear people explain chi as proper body mechanics, breathing, etc.
 
  • #206
Who wants to learn body mechanics and breathing technique, I'll skip all that thank you very much and jump right to learning the magic.
 
  • #208
So chi is electricity.
 
  • #209
This should be really easy to falsify if it really can be seen so easily as electricity as the video seems to claim. Why hasn't it?
 
  • #210
WarPhalange said:
This should be really easy to falsify if it really can be seen so easily as electricity as the video seems to claim. Why hasn't it?
Because the video isn't real?
 

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