Is Chi Real? Exploring the Concept of Chi in Chinese Philosophy

[WarPhalange]

SoleKundalite seems to think it is.

 

[Evo]

SoleKundalite seems to think it is.

And that has to do with what?

Ivan, why is this thread still open?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am satisfied that we haven't gone astray. And even if we did stray too far, I would just delete the derail.

The word "Chi" encompasses an extremely broad range of claims.

 

[rcgldr]

I try to explain "chi" as being similarly realistic as gravity in cartoons, where if the cartoon characters don't look down, they won't fall.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am asking for scientific studies of the most capable martial arts masters, that measure and account for the forces observed; in particular, for the world record breaks, with and without spacers. [this gets back to your question, Evo. We can't debunk by arm-waiving.]

I will eventually get around to seeing what I can find on all of this, though I think that I posted something fairly early in the thread about the world's records. Sometimes if I wait long enough, someone will do it before I have to. , but of late I just haven't had the time to really dig into it.

We are looking for solid references and not just more internet drivel. If we don't have real data, then the conjecture is meaningless.

 

[WarPhalange]

[this gets back to your question, Evo. We can't debunk by arm-waiving.]

That makes sense, but isn't the onus of proof on the people claiming chi is real?

I mean, in order to debunk astrology all you have to do is let the person make some detailed predictions and check if they match up or not.

Wouldn't a similar test be easy enough to do in this case? Maybe something like more force exerted than possible the the body or something?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

People break bricks all the time. The onus of proof is to show that these feats can be explained using conventional mechanics. And Chi Masters cannot be expected to be good physicists, so we can hardly hold them accountable for the physics. If we say it is Newton and not Chi, we have the liability.

As a part of the exploration of this subject, we also need the most credible references to the most impressive feats. Arguing in a vacuum of the most impressive evidence, is useless.

Debunking by pointing to the least impressive evidence is also useless.

 

[WarPhalange]

People break bricks all the time. The onus of proof is to show that these feats can be explained using conventional mechanics.

So if I run 100m in 20 seconds and claim it's Chi, the onus of proof is on someone else to tell me I'm wrong? Becuase people run 100M in 20 seconds all the time.

I was under the impression that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

If people break bricks all the time, then it's not exactly extra-ordinary evidence, now is it? :tongue:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How do we know if we don't check? You are arguing for science by assumption.

What is "extraordinary"? Is that a scientific term that can be quantified? Please give a quantified definition.

Are you saying that we don't learn new things about the body daily; that there is nothing more to learn? Have researchers stopped studying human physiology because we know everything?

 

[WarPhalange]

I guess I don't know. I'm just saying that "they do it all the time" seems like it would be evidence for it being something mundane.

Guys bench press 400lbs all the time, even though I can't. But I wouldn't say there is anything out of the ordinary there. They just practice a lot and have experience.

I'd be more interested in testing the guy who lit the newspaper and apparently shocks people by touching them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How many people can walk up to a pile of brickes and break them with one chop?

Granted, these are all subjective calls, but we have a certain range of expectations, and for all that we know, there are special things going on martial arts masters, as well as for weight lifters, that we don't fully understand. For all that I know, "Chi" may be a word for an unrecognized set of physiologic conditions in the body. But one way or the other, the only way to see if there is any credibility to the claims is to study the most extreme examples that can be found. If there is no mystery, then done. If there is, then there is an opportunity.

I suspect that the data already exists, but so far everyone is far more interested in blindly denying the claim and arm-waiving, than they are doing a little homework.

 

[jostpuur]

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=29618

This guy is awesome! I'm not at his level yet, but hopefully one day in the not too distant future. :-)

I think the trick where he pushes the stick through a bench was done so that the hole was drilled from below in advance. If there had not been a hole in advance, the hole wouldn't have been left so clean when something is pushed through. The hole is shown from below in the video.

 

[SoleKundalite]

I guess I don't know. I'm just saying that "they do it all the time" seems like it would be evidence for it being something mundane.

Guys bench press 400lbs all the time, even though I can't. But I wouldn't say there is anything out of the ordinary there. They just practice a lot and have experience.

I'd be more interested in testing the guy who lit the newspaper and apparently shocks people by touching them.

________


For some, instead of being able to light a newspaper/shock people they have enhanced strength/stamina/pain thresholds. They can go past their normal limits at the gym and seem to have inifinite energy stores. Such a person could possibly become a very dangerously competitive world class boxer given their skill is fairly descent. Talk about quick KO's and going through 10 rounds as if it was just 1 round... while looking upon a gased out De La Hoya.

 

[jostpuur]

For some, instead of being able to light a newspaper/shock people they have enhanced strength/stamina/pain thresholds. They can go past their normal limits at the gym and seem to have inifinite energy stores. Such a person could possibly become a very dangerously competitive world class boxer given their skill is fairly descent. Talk about quick KO's and going through 10 rounds as if it was just 1 round... while looking upon a gased out De La Hoya.

Who?

 

[WarPhalange]

I don't know, it seems like these "Chi masters" are a lot like "psychics". Claims of supernatural powers, but for one reason or another never cash in on it big time.

The guy who burns paper with his thoughts decided to simply run a health clinic. Not even to have students so that maybe he can heal even more people with his amazing powers, but just by himself, healing people's eyes.

 

[WarPhalange]

How many people can walk up to a pile of brickes and break them with one chop?

Granted, these are all subjective calls, but we have a certain range of expectations, and for all that we know, there are special things going on martial arts masters, as well as for weight lifters, that we don't fully understand.

If you think there is a link between amazing feats the human body can do, such as lifting 400lbs and breaking a stack of bricks, then this should be easier to figure out. Lots of testing has been done on weight lifters, power lifters, Olympic lifters, etc. I'm not deep enough into it to know any detailed results, but I've never heard of anything out of the ordinary happening.

Basically weight lifting happens in a few stages. When you first start out, you're not really gaining any muscles or anything. Your body is actually just learning to recruit more nerves from your muscles so that the entire muscle gets used in the lift. It's only several weeks to months later that the body starts actually making more muscle to adapt to the higher weight.

That's why you can have skinny people lifting a lot. Their bodies are just being used more efficiently.

Anyway, this doesn't really apply to "high end" lifting like what we're talking about, just saying that weight lifting is pretty well-understood and if we can't find anything on brick breaking and you think brick breaking is related to lifting and running fast, etc., we could look into those sports instead and see if anything out of the ordinary is happening.

 

[seycyrus]

strength/stamina/pain thresholds. They can go past their normal limits at the gym...

Not if that person going beyond HIS normal limits is still stuck in the low end of mediocrity compared to others who train using conventional methods.

and seem to have inifinite energy stores. Such a person could possibly become a very dangerously competitive world class boxer given their skill is fairly descent. Talk about quick KO's and going through 10 rounds as if it was just 1 round... while looking upon a gased out De La Hoya.

To this day, the people who talk about having such skills, lack the simple energy to do anything but post on the internet.

 

[Pythagorean]

Here's a science-based video on martial arts (in multiple parts, using biomechanics, sensors, etc)

 

[WarPhalange]

Fight Science is notorious for, well, being garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Science#Criticisms
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62218
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/fight-science-417530/
You can watch the first one here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51158 with some comments.

I remember watching the first one. They simply didn't know what "balance" even was. They showed the Ninja jumping on the poles and the Thai Boxer said "That's completely different than having a guy trying to throw you and you trying to stay on your feet." and the people on the show (the crew) were like "What?"

 

[seycyrus]

Fight Science is notorious for, well, being garbage.

Actually, the show does an exceptional job at doing what it aims to do. It illustrates the techniques and effects of common MMA skills using modern technology to good effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Science#Criticisms
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62218
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/fight-science-417530/

I see some silly discussions about who *really* was the most powerful puncher/kicker/striker etc. on BOTH sides of the argument.

I remember watching the first one. They simply didn't know what "balance" even was. They showed the Ninja jumping on the poles and the Thai Boxer said "That's completely different than having a guy trying to throw you and you trying to stay on your feet." and the people on the show (the crew) were like "What?"

Perhaps that is from another show than the one linked to by Pythagorean? I did not see any such ninja involvement in part 1. Could you point to a certain time stamp?

On the other hand, I can fully visualize the crew saying "what?" as in (enlighten us further on the obvious, oh master) when faced with such wisdom.

 

[WarPhalange]

Different episode, I mean, sorry. The MMA episode Pythagorean linked to was I believe the 2nd one, and I hear they have one on Spec Ops martial arts. The one I am referring to was the original one where they did some very hand-wavy things, like assuming that jumping around is the same as wrestling with someone. I've done some wrestling before and by the end of it (it wasn't that long) I was getting a feel for my opponent's weight and where my own weight is. I'm sure that crosses over to jumping around and vice versa, but being good at one doesn't automatically mean you are good at the other.

The climax of the show was when the Ninja did a weird side-ways hammer-fist attack at the chest of a crash-dummy. They claimed that since it compressed the chest so much, a person would have died if struck like that. Cool. That much makes sense. The problem is that the move was so ridiculous that nobody would pull it off in real life, and that's not something they even bothered to account for.

This is similar to how professional wrestling moves are still VERY dangerous, even if fake. Dropping someone on their head can never be good for them. The problem is that nobody would let you do that to them and in pro wrestling you cooperate with your opponent to pull off the moves, vs. say Greco-Roman (Olympic) wrestling where the moves aren't pretty but they have a much higher success-rate.

 

[jostpuur]

Those document makers seem to be confusing science with computer animations.

 

[seycyrus]

Different episode, I mean, sorry.
...

Hey War, perhaps we are totally discussing different video series, or perhaps they have been recut and re-arranged?

I watched the first three or four of them on youtube. The one Pyth linked to has Bas Rutten punching stuff. Another one has Coutre grounding and pounding etc.

I don't see no ninjas...wait...aww man! Do you have to a ninja to see them?

 

[seycyrus]

Those document makers seem to be confusing science with computer animations.

These animations are created with feedback from sensors positioned on an actual practictioner.

The computer animations are very useful in that they allow precise measurements of they dynamics of key points of the human body.

Measurement after all, is a key component of science.

 

[WarPhalange]

Hey War, perhaps we are totally discussing different video series, or perhaps they have been recut and re-arranged?

I watched the first three or four of them on youtube. The one Pyth linked to has Bas Rutten punching stuff. Another one has Coutre grounding and pounding etc.

I don't see no ninjas...wait...aww man! Do you have to a ninja to see them?

One of the links I posted has the first episode in parts similar to how Pyth linked. Check those out.

It was definitely called "Fight Science". What I'm thinking is that basically they are jumping on the bandwagon of what's popular. It happens to be MMA now.

And even though they are using motion sensors and stuff to take data, there is a considerable amount of fluff going on to gain viewers. Some people would be content with the numbers, others are only looking for pretty pictures. They had to find a middle-ground.

 

[seycyrus]

One of the links I posted has the first episode in parts similar to how Pyth linked. Check those out..

Ahh, well that link told me I had to join bullshido to view it. I clicked on Pyth's link and watched the next few episodes on youtube.

This series is called Fight Science of the *mixed martial arts masters*. Perhaps it is a subgroup of the series you refer to.

And even though they are using motion sensors and stuff to take data, there is a considerable amount of fluff going on to gain viewers. Some people would be content with the numbers, others are only looking for pretty pictures. They had to find a middle-ground.

Well sure. They are going to get every last nickel out of it they can. But I for one, would much rather numbers and an animation, than listen to tai-chi guy say "trust me, my strike is the most powerful, trust me."

 

[DrClapeyron]

At 1:21 the Chi force is unleashed.

Honestly I think good technique not internal spirits give great athletes their ablities.

 

[WarPhalange]

This series is called Fight Science of the *mixed martial arts masters*. Perhaps it is a subgroup of the series you refer to.

No, the series is just called "Fight Science". MMA was just 1 episode, and the first one had several different martial arts featured.

 

[Stevedye56]

I know how to answer this. NO.

 

[bassplayer142]

Has anyone seen this video?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qWCn8PkHeuk

 

[WarPhalange]

It's called lye.

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/qigong-demonstration-zhou-ting-jue/

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's called lye.

Is that what they use? I thought it was a little more complicated, but I have seen hollywood special effects experts duplicate this trick by treating the foil with chemicals.

 

[WarPhalange]

These tricks have been around literally for centuries, so it makes sense that it would be something very simple.

 

[thomasxc]

from a purely scientific standpoint, it is possible? i think maybe, but probably not.

 

[WarPhalange]

How is that scientific at all? All you did is give a very vague opinion.