Scientists Bridle at Lecture Plan for Dalai Lama [NY Times]

[hypnagogue]

The Dalai Lama, the exiled leader of Tibet who is revered as a spiritual teacher, is at the center of a scientific controversy.

He has been an enthusiastic collaborator in research on whether the intense meditation practiced by Buddhist monks can train the brain to generate compassion and positive thoughts. Next month in Washington, the Dalai Lama is scheduled to speak about the research at the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience.

But 544 brain researchers have signed a petition urging the society to cancel the lecture, because, according to the petition, "it will highlight a subject with largely unsubstantiated claims and compromised scientific rigor and objectivity."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/19/national/19meditate.html?incamp=article_popular

 

[DocToxyn]

I say, let the man talk! I would certainly attend the presentation, if I were going to the meeting, and view it against the same criteria for sound scientific process that I view all such issues. It is a very interesting topic and is sure to spark some good debate. As the article states, this is a new area of research and one can't expect it to be perfected before one starts sharing the obervations with the neuroscience community as a whole.

I admit I dabble in Eastern philosophy and mediation on occasion and it does strike certain cords that rail against my science training. It's similar to the dogma of animals not being capable of complex emotion/human behaviors and the anaethema of anthropomorphizing animal behavior if one is doing such research.

 

[Moonbear]

Now I somewhat wish I was going to the conference (I decided not to attend this year since I'll already be attending a pre-conference workshop that will probably leave me burnt out for the rest of the week). I agree with DocToxyn, let him speak, and the audience can judge for themselves whether there is scientific merit. If there isn't, they can challenge him directly. It would be pretty boring to attend a conference where only the old tried-and-true research was presented; the whole point is to learn about new things that are not as proven and that are open areas to investigate.

 

[Ophiolite]

I must admit to a sense of sadness that scientists are, once again, behaving so unscientifically. Based on the linked article (which of course is incomplete) it seems the only 'valid' objection is that the research carried out so far is inconclusive.
Wow! That has to be headline news.
"Research generates more questions than it answers."
"Research does not provide all the answers."
"Preliminary research leaves room for improvement in methodology."
And on this basis 544 scientists take off their lab coats and don their petty primate minds long enough to bring into disrepute the very science they claim to be protecting. Yes, I am definitely saddened.

 

[Moonbear]

I must admit to a sense of sadness that scientists are, once again, behaving so unscientifically. Based on the linked article (which of course is incomplete) it seems the only 'valid' objection is that the research carried out so far is inconclusive.
Wow! That has to be headline news.
"Research generates more questions than it answers."
"Research does not provide all the answers."
"Preliminary research leaves room for improvement in methodology."
And on this basis 544 scientists take off their lab coats and don their petty primate minds long enough to bring into disrepute the very science they claim to be protecting. Yes, I am definitely saddened.

When you consider that this conference usually has attendance of over 20,000 scientists, that you can find 544 of them (about 2%) that have a knee-jerk reaction like this is not overly surprising...there are bad scientists out there too who may have a political agenda other than science in mind. I think we need to keep in focus that the fact that the Dalai Lama was invited to speak, and that means that the scientists most held in esteem by our society who have been elected as officers and to the programming committee do think this subject has merit, whether because it opens up some interesting questions that do remain inconclusive and warrant further study, or because a high profile speaker will raise public awareness of the society and neuroscience research in general. That 2% of the membership is too short-sighted to appreciate this does not overly concern me, nor does it surprise me.

 

[PerennialII]

Yes, more than anything feel envious towards the lucky ones able to attend and listen to the lecture. In addition to being a huge awareness & relations boost think many of the attending scientists will gain a lot from the lecture themselves, as such the event in the end turning out as a "big plus" for the society.

 

[Ophiolite]

When you consider that this conference usually has attendance of over 20,000 scientists, that you can find 544 of them (about 2%) that have a knee-jerk reaction like this is not overly surprising...there are bad scientists out there too who may have a political agenda .

Ah. That sounds much better. I did not appreciate the size of this conference (I'm a simple geologist by training and an engineer by profession). Your clarification certainly puts this in perspective.

 

[Moonbear]

Ah. That sounds much better. I did not appreciate the size of this conference (I'm a simple geologist by training and an engineer by profession). Your clarification certainly puts this in perspective.

Yes, it's a shame the news story didn't point that out as well, as they give the impression of much more controversy than there really is. I'd also be curious to know if those petitioning against it are even attending the conference. There are of course far more members of the society than actually attend the conference every year.

 

[Vast]

It is ironic for neuroscientists to provide a forum for and, with it, implicit endorsement of a religious leader whose legitimacy relies on reincarnation, a doctrine against the very foundation of neuroscience. The present Dalai Lama explicitly claims the separation of mind and body, which is essential to the recognition of the Dalai Lama as both a religious and a political leader.

http://www.petitiononline.com/sfn2005/"

It’s good to know that the Society for Neuroscience is against entertaining any serious investigation into reincarnation. Like they say, this is the wrong forum for the Dali Lama to present his views.

 

[Moonbear]

http://www.petitiononline.com/sfn2005/"
It’s good to know that the Society for Neuroscience is against entertaining any serious investigation into reincarnation. Like they say, this is the wrong forum for the Dali Lama to present his views.

The topic he is presenting is not reincarnation, it is meditation. Those who are opposed and claiming his conclusions are incorrect are not offering any counter-evidence to refute this. I saw no studies cited to refute the claims. Thus, while the topic is controversial, there is nothing wrong with presenting to a group of scientists a topic that is open for debate; indeed, it makes for much more interesting discussion than the majority of presentations at the conference which too often include work that has already been published sometime between the April abstract submission and the late October/early November meeting. I got fed up last year with attending talks that presented NO new data, only findings from already published studies. The entire purpose of a scientific conference is to share new ideas and raise awareness of areas that remain unstudied, and to present the newest data that may still be in preliminary form. If you want to get information on fully completed experiments that are totally uncontroversial, you can read old journal articles. I want to know what the latest, cutting edge news is, the stuff that scientists know is preliminary and conclusions are tentative, because that's the exciting part of science, the discovery side.

Having read the full petition, it is even more clear now that this is entirely politically or religiously motivated, and has nothing to do with the actual topic of the talk. If the talk does turn out to be a bunch of nonsense, do you want to know the easiest way to tell? There will be no questions. If there is no scientific merit to the presentation, the scientists will grow bored and restless and walk out. If there is an inkling of a good idea, even if the first studies are flawed, as they often are when beginning investigation into something totally new (it's difficult to control for all the variables when you're still trying to identify those variables; initial studies are typically observational, not experimental), there will be a flurry of discussion and debate, and you'll hear murmurings and discussion all throughout the meeting. If someone wants to challenge the current studies and thinks they are poorly designed or flawed, they most certainly should design a better study and justify their claims with data and evidence, not just baseless assumptions, or else they are not being scientific in their approach. Starting out with a closed mind on a topic is a poor way to approach science. Would they be able to conduct any less flawed of a study if their initial bias is so strong against a neural effect of meditation? There are a lot of people in the world who practice meditation and claim it helps them remain more relaxed or positive; isn't it worth finding out if those claims have any basis?

 

[Vast]

Yes, I know the topic has to do with meditation, but I was expressing a point of view that has to do with a whole other level of influences, namely that much of eastern meditation makes references to such things as prana and charkas, and mentions the separation of mind and body. To be honest I’m neutral to whether meditation has positive effects or not, that’s not what I or the scientist petitioning this are opposed to. The Dalai lama is a very well known religious figure, and the message this sends to the public may be one that says neuroscience favors a particular brand of religion. This can only undermine the integrity of the organization.

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, I know the topic has to do with meditation, but I was expressing a point of view that has to do with a whole other level of influences, namely that much of eastern meditation makes references to such things as prana and charkas, and mentions the separation of mind and body. To be honest I’m neutral to whether meditation has positive effects or not, that’s not what I or the scientist petitioning this are opposed to. The Dalai lama is a very well known religious figure, and the message this sends to the public may be one that says neuroscience favors a particular brand of religion. This can only undermine the integrity of the organization.

And wouldn't prohibiting his lecture also say our opinion is prejudiced by the religious affiliation of the person speaking? If I give a talk at the meeting, is the society saying they favor atheism? If what he has to say is relevant to neuroscience, then his religious affiliation should not be of significance. Perhaps they should just attend his talk and see what he has to say before judging it? If he is talking about meditation and its influence on the brain, without regard to the religious reasons for the practice of meditation (one can meditate without believing in religion, but simply as a way of calming their thoughts), then there is no reason it would not be acceptable. I didn't hear of anyone protesting when Christopher Reeves spoke a few years ago even though he is no scientist either; it was simply a "pep rally" of sorts promoting the need for more spinal cord/spinal injury research. I wouldn't expect much different of this talk by the Dalai Lama, except the topic would be meditation and the need to address mind and brain issues, very much as this forum here was started to address the converging disciplines of biology, philosophy and psychology, the field of neuroscience as a whole is recognizing this direction as a very open area of inquiry.

The way I predict the lecture will go is that the Dalai Lama will issue the challenge, and it will be up to the scientists to meet the challenge of finding ways to study these mind/brain issues.

Also, note that the lecture topic is listed under the category of "Dialogues Between Neuroscience and Society." It is not billed as a "pure science" talk. Here's the SFN website with the list of featured lectures, including the description of the one by the Dalai Lama. http://web.sfn.org/am2005/index.cfm?pagename=featured_lectures

 

[Vast]

And wouldn't prohibiting his lecture also say our opinion is prejudiced by the religious affiliation of the person speaking?

Apart from being a religious figure he is also a political figure, I’m not sure his intentions are solely the interests of science, but his own religious/political agendas.

If I give a talk at the meeting, is the society saying they favor atheism?

What if we viewed science as a whole, as an individual person, with the scientific method being way of looking at the world? Wouldn’t it already seem to be very much an atheist? So I wouldn’t say they favor atheism, rather that science in itself as it pushes the boundaries of knowledge, strips away all religious beliefs.

I didn't hear of anyone protesting when Christopher Reeves spoke a few years ago even though he is no scientist either; it was simply a "pep rally" of sorts promoting the need for more spinal cord/spinal injury research. I wouldn't expect much different of this talk by the Dalai Lama, except the topic would be meditation and the need to address mind and brain issues,

While spinal cord injury is an important area of research to promote, the claims made for meditation at the moment seem to be largely unsubstantiated. The Dalai Lama’s presentation would go a long way to promote research into meditation, however it would be better to promote another field of research with a more valued and serious goal.

 

[hypnagogue]

While spinal cord injury is an important area of research to promote, the claims made for meditation at the moment seem to be largely unsubstantiated.

What unsubstantiated claims do you mean, and who is making these claims?

The Dalai Lama’s presentation would go a long way to promote research into meditation, however it would be better to promote another field of research with a more valued and serious goal.

Who decides what is to be valued? And what is a 'serious' goal?

 

[Vast]

What unsubstantiated claims do you mean, and who is making these claims?

From the link I gave above and stated in the link Moonbear gave:

6) In the SfN announcement of the Featured Lectures regarding the talk by the Dalai Lama, it is stated that “meditation, a practice of mental discipline that Western neuroscience has shown to change neural states in circuits that may be important for compassionate behavior and attentional and emotional regulation”. This is a misleading statement. This claim was made by believers of meditation and Buddhism and the experiments were performed by a team led by Richard Davidson, a long time believer. This study published in PNAS was flawed, ranging from experimental design to conclusions. It is too premature for SfN to support the statement on the basis of such experiments by believers.

Who decides what is to be valued? And what is a 'serious' goal?

Why the SfN of course.

 

[Moonbear]

What if we viewed science as a whole, as an individual person, with the scientific method being way of looking at the world? Wouldn’t it already seem to be very much an atheist? So I wouldn’t say they favor atheism, rather that science in itself as it pushes the boundaries of knowledge, strips away all religious beliefs.

But here you're confusing scientific method/science with the people who do the science. Scientific method should not include any "beliefs," whether they be for or against the existence of one thing or another. One has to accept whatever the data tell you. It is just as bad to assume something does not happen as it is to assume it does happen. Since it is impossible to completely remove human bias, the next best thing is to have dissent among the scientists, so that both sides challenge the ideas from two different perspectives, until balance is found.

While spinal cord injury is an important area of research to promote, the claims made for meditation at the moment seem to be largely unsubstantiated. The Dalai Lama’s presentation would go a long way to promote research into meditation, however it would be better to promote another field of research with a more valued and serious goal.

Actually, I heard a lot of criticism of Chris Reeve's talk, mainly because the scientists viewed it as "preaching to the choir." There was nothing new, exciting, controversial, or challenging about being told we need more spinal cord research. Of course, it wasn't that long ago that much of what we now know about spinal nerve regeneration was thought to be unsubstantiated nonsense. Had nobody dared to put forward the incredible claim that nerves could regenerate, we wouldn't know very much of what we do know now.

If meditation can have an influence (positive OR negative) on brain structure and function, why would that not be important to study given the large percentage of the population that engages in some form of meditation? What if some methods are harmful? We don't even know that much. Just because the Dalai Lama is likely to present an argument that there are positive effects of meditation, it doesn't mean that's the only possibility. Many people who don't believe in meditation probably take the stance that "well, it doesn't hurt," but if it can lead to actual physical changes in the brain, then what if it can hurt if not done right?

If something has an impact on human physiology and/or health, why is that not a valued and serious goal? It seems you may be injecting some of your own bias against meditation into this argument. Too often people want scientists to all focus on curing diseases, no matter how rare, and ignore the work that may help simply promote health, or add to our understanding of what is normal and healthy.

Keep in mind, this audience will be packed full of scientists. This isn't going to be a case of someone preaching to the believers, but more of someone who will need to provide a convincing argument to a lot of non-believers and skeptics. If everything he speaks of is complete nonsense, this is the audience to challenge it. I would challenge those 500 or so people signing the petition to attend the talk and raise their criticisms there, for the whole audience to hear, with all the claims on the table, rather than trying to censor the talk without ever hearing what there is to say. They could be wrong, and if they aren't open to the possibility of being wrong, then they don't belong in science.

 

[Vast]

Okay, it’s unclear what benefits meditation has on its subjects, for instance, from reading the Dalai Lama’s statement, I gather he’s saying significant neurological changes occurs over months or years. But from my own personal opinion, I would say that meditation is similar to a hypnotic state, or moving through different brain frequencies. Something very different from producing significant permanent neurological changes.

But then, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4770779"

But once again, meditation is not the real issue here, his presence alone suggests an endorsement by the SfN of a particular brand of religion and worse helps him promote his crazy beliefs associated with the separation of mind and body.

 

[hypnagogue]

The Dalai Lama’s presentation would go a long way to promote research into meditation, however it would be better to promote another field of research with a more valued and serious goal.

Who decides what is to be valued? And what is a 'serious' goal?

Why the SfN of course.

I hope you appreciate the circularity of that response. You argue that the Dalai Lama's presentation will promote meditation research, but that research should be focused on 'valued and serious' goals. But if the SfN (and in general, researching neuroscientists as a whole) is what decides what is a valued and serious goal, and if these scientists would take up the task of researching meditation further, then by your own criterion meditation research would be validated as a 'valued and serious' goal.

 

[hypnagogue]

But once again, meditation is not the real issue here, his presence alone suggests an endorsement by the SfN of a particular brand of religion and worse helps him promote his crazy beliefs associated with the separation of mind and body.

Moonbear has already explained why this view is nonsensical. In this situation, it doesn't matter what the man's beliefs are; all that matters is what he claims in his prospective talk. When Reeves gave his talk, did that constitute a tacit SfN endorsement of Superman movies, or horseback riding, or whatever? I realize that analogy is a stretch, but hopefully it goes a ways towards illustrating what is wrong with your objection.

More generally, if scientist X gives a talk and X is religious, does the fact that X is allowed to speak constitute an endorsement of X's religion? Of course it is the case that the Dalai Lama's belief systems will be more conspicuous than some random scientist, but that should not be held against him. The basic idea is the same, and the standards should be the same.

 

[Vast]

Moonbear has already explained why this view is nonsensical. In this situation, it doesn't matter what the man's beliefs are; all that matters is what he claims in his prospective talk. When Reeves gave his talk, did that constitute a tacit SfN endorsement of Superman movies, or horseback riding, or whatever? I realize that analogy is a stretch, but hopefully it goes a ways towards illustrating what is wrong with your objection.

More generally, if scientist X gives a talk and X is religious, does the fact that X is allowed to speak constitute an endorsement of X's religion? Of course it is the case that the Dalai Lama's belief systems will be more conspicuous than some random scientist, but that should not be held against him. The basic idea is the same, and the standards should be the same.

This is why it’s so controversial. The Dalai Lama is a spiritual man, which means at the end of the day he’s going to be preaching his beliefs about reincarnation, body and mind separation and whatever else is part of his religion. (Not part of his lecture hopefully, but then again he might choose to do so) It matters very much what his beliefs are, for if you haven’t noticed this is neuroscience, and you could say that he has his own ideas about “mind” that don’t necessarily fall into this particular field of science, which means he really has no interest in science, especially neuroscience.

Similarly, do you suppose it would be appropriate if the SfN invited Pope Benedict XVI to give a talk about the positive power of prayer? How praying daily produces significant changes in ones compassionate behavior and love for all? Hypothetically, say such a situation occurred, would the Pope be contributing to science valuable research to do with the neurological changes induced by praying, or would he be encouraging people to pray more? You might say the Pope is contributing to science, but at the same time encouraging people to still pray which in effect dose absolutely nothing in the whole scheme of things, but then you might say it has the same effect as meditating, and thus considered valuable research, but at the end of the day he’s still going to be preaching the wrong things about mind, brain and philosophy.

 

[Gold Barz]

I don't understand why they are trying to block the Dalai Lama from giving this lecture...?

 

[Moonbear]

This is why it’s so controversial. The Dalai Lama is a spiritual man, which means at the end of the day he’s going to be preaching his beliefs about reincarnation, body and mind separation and whatever else is part of his religion. (Not part of his lecture hopefully, but then again he might choose to do so) It matters very much what his beliefs are, for if you haven’t noticed this is neuroscience, and you could say that he has his own ideas about “mind” that don’t necessarily fall into this particular field of science, which means he really has no interest in science, especially neuroscience.

Why do you assume he will be preaching and not just talking about meditation as it relates to neuroscience? You're pre-judging without knowing what he and organizers have agreed would be the topic of his talk, or what he actually does talk about. Do you think he doesn't know who his audience is? By the way, attendance is voluntary. There are plenty of things going on at the meeting, and plenty of people opt to skip these evening lectures in favor of going out to dinner unless the topic is especially compelling, so it's not like people can't decide to not attend it if they are not interested.

One of the complaints in the petition was that the audience would not be allowed to openly ask questions, but questions would be written on cards and staff members would read them. They made the accusation that this was to stifle questions. I've since received emails from the organizers with detailed instructions regarding security for the Dalai Lama's visit. Not allowing audience members to get up and move toward the microphones is part of the State Department's security measures...it's not even the Dalai Lama's request, but our own government's security rules. Every audience member will be handed a card upon which they can write questions, so there is nobody limited who can write questions. I don't expect there will be much selection by the organizers other than to leave out any that are not scientific questions but political statements. There is always some selection of who asks questions, though typically, it's just who raises their hand first or is seen first.

Similarly, do you suppose it would be appropriate if the SfN invited Pope Benedict XVI to give a talk about the positive power of prayer? How praying daily produces significant changes in ones compassionate behavior and love for all? Hypothetically, say such a situation occurred, would the Pope be contributing to science valuable research to do with the neurological changes induced by praying, or would he be encouraging people to pray more? You might say the Pope is contributing to science, but at the same time encouraging people to still pray which in effect dose absolutely nothing in the whole scheme of things, but then you might say it has the same effect as meditating, and thus considered valuable research, but at the end of the day he’s still going to be preaching the wrong things about mind, brain and philosophy.

If he actually was involved in scientific studies and could speak to the science directly, yes, it would be just as appropriate. The point is that it opens up the question for study. The claim by the Dalai Lama is that there are studies on the effects of meditation on actual neurological changes by the person doing the meditating. Current studies on the effect of prayer are not addressing neurological changes, but outcome of major medical procedures based on someone else doing the praying, thus not neuroscience.

Is it not reasonable to think that someone actively thinking about something (be it meditation or intense concentration or prayer) might be experiencing some neural changes during that process? Something very definitely testable is being presented here. This is taking something that originated in religion and moving it into the realm of science, seeking a physical explanation rather than only a mystical one. There is nothing wrong with doing that, and I would even say it should be encouraged. This may not be just meditation-related, but any positive thinking (yes, including prayer).

 

[Gold Barz]

"This is taking something that originated in religion and moving it into the realm of science, seeking a physical explanation rather than only a mystical one" - So true, and it says in the article that they agreed that the lecture will ONLY be on meditation, so what's the problem?

 

[Moonbear]

I've already identified a few friends and colleagues who will be attending the lecture. I'll let you know if he stayed on the agreed topic when I hear back from them next week.

 

[franznietzsche]

This is why it’s so controversial. The Dalai Lama is a spiritual man, which means at the end of the day he’s going to be preaching his beliefs about reincarnation, body and mind separation and whatever else is part of his religion.

You're just making stuff up at this point. Or do you not realize that the Dalai Llama is the only religious leader to concede that if a major tenet of his religion were proven impossible by science, then that religion would have to change to accommodate that? (yes, even if reincarnation were disproven, though he pointed out it would be pretty hard to disprove that).

Similarly, do you suppose it would be appropriate if the SfN invited Pope Benedict XVI to give a talk about the positive power of prayer? How praying daily produces significant changes in ones compassionate behavior and love for all? Hypothetically, say such a situation occurred, would the Pope be contributing to science valuable research to do with the neurological changes induced by praying, or would he be encouraging people to pray more?

Depends on the talk he gave. If he gave a talk on the neurological and psychological affects of prayer, then that is what he gave the talk on.

You might say the Pope is contributing to science, but at the same time encouraging people to still pray which in effect dose absolutely nothing in the whole scheme of things, but then you might say it has the same effect as meditating, and thus considered valuable research, but at the end of the day he’s still going to be preaching the wrong things about mind, brain and philosophy.

I think you are guilty of blind prejudice against religious parties for no real reason.

To Moonbear:

Do you think it would be possible for us to get a transcript of this talk after the event?

 

[Dayle Record]

I once heard the Dalai Lama speak. This was in Provo Utah, of all places. Starting in two cars, my daughters in one, and I in another, we traveled on torn up freeways, and were very late getting there. We had nosebleed seats. He was late too, so by the time we took our seats, the event started. The Dalai Lama, would discourse at length in Tibetan, perhaps 5 minutes at a stretch, then his interpreter, would say about two sentences, and call it good. Then the Dalai Lama would discourse again for about 5 minutes, which the interpreter would whittle down to two sentences. I found it amusing. However at the end of his speech, my 13 year old daughter, who has no training in religion at all, and is not a Budhist, stood up as if in a trance, and asked, "Mom, can I go down there and touch the carpet, where his feet were"? We were really high up, and I said, "Sure honey", we went all the way down, and she stood there and stroked the carpet, and I asked her how it was? She said, "I knew it would be really soft"!

 

[Moonbear]

To Moonbear:

Do you think it would be possible for us to get a transcript of this talk after the event?

I don't know if transcripts will be made available, or even a video. If I hear of one, I'll let you know. I know they were set up to televise it to a second room if there were too many people to fit into the main lecture hall, so they probably did record it...knowing SFN, they'll sell videos.

 

[Gold Barz]

I want to hear HH Dalai Lama speak so much, he came through here in Toronto a couple of years ago but at the time I had no interest in Buddhism.

 

[Integral]

In my former life I was a Buddhist, we received instruction from a man who had been the interpreter for, and was a personal friend of the Dali Lama. At one time we were attending a audience with the Dali Lama in Seaside Ore, unfortunately we had 2 boys less then 5yrs old who were getting very restless before the talk began. I chose to take the boys out for a walk on the beach rather then attempting to force them to sit quite for a talk they could not appreciate. I would have like to heard him talk.

Another time, I recall driving to Portland to pick up Mr. Kazi, our instructor, he was very interested in Modern Physics, asking questions about the Strong Force, glueons etc, while I was attempting to negotiate Portland traffic. Not sure if I was able to make any sense or not. I was struck with just how curious he was with the state of Physics, and concerned that Buddhism was in agreement with Physics. This was not a unique event, in fact nearly every time we spoke he was probing for more information about Physics.

It is not clear to me how the Dali Lama could contribute to a scientific study of Meditation, but also it is not clear to me how one could possibly conduct a study of Meditation without consulting the Dali Lama or someone capable of, and very familiar with deep meditation. If indeed someone wishes to do a scientific study of meditation they need to hear what the Dali Lama has to say about it. What ever you think, you must understand that a talk by a Buddhist monk has nothing in common with a sermon by a Fundamentalist Preacher.

 

[Highlander]

Article

I found this article and thought to share it with you guys. Vast, I wouldn't be that judgmental and prejudiced!

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer

The Dalai Lama, believed by millions to be the 74th manifestation of Avalokiteshvara, the enlightened Buddha of compassion, made his way across the stage of DAR Constitution Hall yesterday more as the peasant he was born than the international icon he has become.

He walked slowly and half-bowed, smiling broadly and with a playful glint in his eye. And why not: The audience of several thousand -- scientists, meditators, spiritual seekers and monks in scarlet robes -- had gathered for a tutorial that has been going on for him since he was a young boy. Tibetan religious teachers began the process, but for almost 20 years the Dalai Lama has actively sought to expand his knowledge of several disciplines of science by attracting top researchers from around the world to his Indian mountain home to discuss their latest work.

Yesterday's gathering was the second time his sessions with scientists have gone public -- a kind of living-room gathering for thousands to watch and listen. The 70-year-old Dalai Lama, aka His Holiness, perched at the lectern, spoke briefly about his boyhood love of technology and science in faraway and then-closed Lhasa, and hinted at the high-minded and sometimes complex scientific and philosophical discussions to come.
"After these sessions, sometimes I cannot really remember what has been said," he said, a humility that his writings tend to dispute. "But I think it leaves an imprint in my brain."
How much of an imprint has become a surprisingly controversial issue on the Dalai Lama's 10-day visit to Washington. The Dalai Lama already is a major religious, political and literary figure, but his emerging role as a scientific leader has for the first time encountered some significant pushback.
Not at the Constitution Hall gathering, sponsored by the Mind and Life Institute, a group that he helped found. (The official topic for the three days of discussion will be meditation, and how cutting-edge science is beginning to understand more about its highly active nature and how it can enhance and heal the human mind and body.)
But trouble looms this weekend at the Washington Convention Center, where the Dalai Lama is scheduled to give an hour-long keynote address Saturday to the annual convention of the Society for Neuroscience.

A petition drive, begun primarily by Chinese American researchers, seeks to have the Dalai Lama's appearance canceled. The protesters, who argue that a religious leader should not be given such a prominent role at an important scientific conference, say they have gathered at least 600 signatures. There have also been competing letters and an editorial in the journal Nature.

"The presentation of a religious symbol with a controversial political agenda may cause unnecessary controversies, unwanted press, and significant divisions among SFN members from multiple geographic locations, and with conflicting religious beliefs and political leanings," reads the petition, which was signed by several hundred non-Chinese researchers and academics as well.

"Inviting the Dalai Lama to lecture on 'Neuroscience of Meditation' is of poor scientific taste, because it will highlight a subject with largely unsubstantiated claims and compromised scientific rigor and objectivity at a prestigious meeting attended by more than 20,000 neuroscientists."

That anti-Dalai Lama effort quickly gave birth to a counter-petition in favor of his address, as well as speculation about the motives of the original group of petition writers. Relations between China and once-independent Tibet have been badly strained for half a century, and the Dalai Lama is at the center of the dispute.

"Chinese protests against high-profile visits of the Dalai Lama are routine wherever he travels," said John Ackerly, president of the International Campaign for Tibet and one of the sponsors of the Dalai Lama's Washington visit. Ackerly said that the speech is part of a series called "Dialogues Between Neuroscience and Society" and that architect Frank Gehry is scheduled to be next year's speaker.

"The Dalai Lama has had a long interest in science and has maintained an ongoing dialogue with leading neuroscientists for more than 15 years," said Carol Barnes, the society's president. "Which is the reason he was invited to speak."

Speaking to reporters before the Mind and Life conference sessions began yesterday, the Dalai Lama said he understood the controversy: "When people heard that I would be speaking, that meant that the Dalai Lama -- from a 500-year institution that symbolizes Tibetan Buddhism -- would be meeting with scientists," he said. "Yes, it's a little bit strange. But on the other hand, when scientists come into our Tibetan monastic institutions, that also looks a little strange."

During yesterday's sessions, the Dalai Lama sat cross-legged in a chair onstage as he listened with other presenters. Each presenter wore a headset microphone. (The Dalai Lama blew his nose constantly, sometimes into his own mike.)

The Dalai Lama can't simply attend a convention. He requires no Hello-My-Name-Is badge. He is religious leader, student, attendee, celebrity, exile.

Adam Engle, the president of the Mind and Life Institute, announced that today's afternoon session would start late, as the Dalai Lama has back-to-back meetings with President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. This pleased audience members, who cheered -- it's always a good thing for the Tibetan cause when the Dalai Lama gets into the White House.

His recent book, "The Universe in an Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality," tries to make the case that modern science and Buddhist thought have surprisingly similar aims, methods and sometimes conclusions -- though he resists efforts to see the world in purely material terms. (Some of his thoughts about limits to the theory of evolution when it comes to how life and consciousness began earned him a rather harsh book review in the New York Times, including a suggestion that he was proposing a Buddhist version of intelligent design.)

During yesterday's session, some of those parallels between Buddhist thought and cutting-edge science were on display.

Wolf Singer, director of the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research in Frankfurt, explained how his research has found that neuronal coordination within the brain is key to human understanding and performance -- a conclusion that Buddhist thought intuited long ago.

Richard Davidson, a research psychologist at the University of Wisconsin whose pioneering (and peer-reviewed) work on meditation was also criticized by the petition writers, described research into how "plastic" the brain actually is and how meditation has been found to change the nature and intensity of brain waves. Stanford's Robert Sapolsky explained research into the harmful physical and mental effects of stress, and how lab rats given constructive outlets to relieve their stress suffered fewer problems.
By day's end, it was more clear why the Dalai Lama finds his scientific explorations to be so compelling. What the scientists were discussing -- and with the help of the Mind and Life Institute are increasingly researching -- is the most current biological, chemical and psychological findings about how certain kinds of human suffering can be understood and alleviated. Precisely what might appeal to the man known as the present-day Buddha of compassion.

While politics and religion are always important to the Dalai Lama, aides say, his involvement with science is especially significant to him. Given the frequent hostility between religious and scientific thought in the United States, many find the Dalai Lama's explorations into such subjects as quantum physics, or the neuroscience of consciousness, or evolution and the physical nature of emotions to be remarkable.

And he has been known to back that up: He often says -- and affirmed again in front of yesterday's audience -- that when science proves that Buddhist scriptures are incorrect, then the scriptures should be rejected.

 

[Moonbear]

Well, I asked the folks who returned from the conference today. They were fairly disappointed with the talk...okay, they were VERY disappointed with the talk. It was neither about neuroscience nor meditation, nor much of anything anyone predicted. He apparently just rambled on for a while about the first time he opened a physiology textbook and saw how difficult it was, and telling all these stories of growing up, and if he had it to do over, he'd be a scientist. Of course, he did this all through a translator. Apparently he'd mumble a bit, and the translator would talk on for 5 minutes, or the Dalai Lama would talk for 5 min, and the translator would say two words. They suspected the translator was making it up as he went along. One student reported in an astonished tone, "He didn't prepare his talk! That's rude!" :rofl: So, controversy closed, nothing much to report, everyone would have been better off using the hour to go get dinner (but the room was packed, so it seems those 500 were in the vast minority compared to those interested in hearing the talk).

 

[Highlander]

I wouldn't expect everyone to have a same opinion on his talk as people vary but yes, it's unfortunate for those who didn't enjoy it. I checked and we could buy the video but I'd love to find a free video clip for it. About his translator, if he's making up stuffs, wouldn't the Dalai Lama know because he does speak English quite well.

 

[Moonbear]

I wouldn't expect everyone to have a same opinion on his talk as people vary but yes, it's unfortunate for those who didn't enjoy it. I checked and we could buy the video but I'd love to find a free video clip for it. About his translator, if he's making up stuffs, wouldn't the Dalai Lama know because he does speak English quite well.

If the Dalai Lama speaks English well, why was he using a translator?

 

[Highlander]

If the Dalai Lama speaks English well, why was he using a translator?

For such audience of scientists, having his translator speak seems rather more effective than going by his "quite well" English in which, he tends to ask for that certain word he has a difficulty coming up with.

 

[Moonbear]

For such audience of scientists, having his translator speak seems rather more effective than going by his "quite well" English in which, he tends to ask for that certain word he has a difficulty coming up with.

I guess that gets back to the one student's dismay that "he didn't prepare his talk." If he planned his talk ahead, he would know what word would come next. Nobody would have objected if he had to read parts of the talk to help him with the English. This is a society with international membership, so it's not at all unusual that people present who struggle with English. They just ensure they've practiced sufficiently and bring along notes if needed to know what words to use when. They got the impression he just rambled on without any forethought to where he was going with his talk.