Conversation about defensive behaviour?

In summary: The other person I know who does that simply LOVES to argue. I have no idea what the underlying cause might be, but I know she simply wants to argue and feel like she's smarter than everyone else. She won't even let you finish your statement before she starts yelping at you. I don't even bother, I just belittle her for even trying to make an argument out of nothing as I have lost all patience for that crap. It hasn't effected our friendship because I think it's like a drug, if she can't get her fix from me, she'll get it from someone else eventually.
  • #1
GeorginaS
236
1
Does anyone have any suggestions about how to engage someone in a conversation about defensive behaviour? How do you talk to them about it?

Here are a couple of small examples, but not the totality of what I’m dealing with:

I say – I have red hair; Kelly has brown hair.
They say – Well that’s not a bad thing, you know!

Or

They say – I think X, Y, and Z.
I say – That’s really interesting. I hadn’t thought of X, Y, and Z before. That reminds me of an instance when someone said K,L, and M to me.
They say – I didn’t say that or mean that. That’s not what I said!

Largely the cases being that I’m offering a statement that has no value judgement attached to it whatsoever and getting my head bit off for it.

It's been my experience that, when I've identified that someone is responding defensively with me in conversations, I check first to see if it’s something I’m doing. I make reasonably certain that a) I'm not attacking or threatening them, b) I’m adhering to good communication practises by acknowledging what they say and their ideas prior to introducing my own, c) I’m not lecturing/talking down to/humouring them, and d) I’m not being critical of what they’re saying.

Once I’m pretty sure it’s not me, it’s them, then I need to ask them what’s up. I’ve not figured out a way to do that yet without that person getting defensive with me about it and then the issue doesn't get resolved.

Ideas?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2


I have a friend who is like that. She likes to argue. I have a feeling someones defensiveness is so closely linked to how much they like to argue that it basically comes down to trying to turn someone who likes to argue into someone who doesn't, which is a nearly impossible task in my opinion.

I personally side-step the situation in a rather insulting manner. If I were in the situation like you described with the X,Y,Z and K,L,M, I would simply say "whatever, whatever, so K, L, M, blah blah blah...". I feel like people are trying to bait you into an argument. They WANT to argue. It might even be a self-esteem issue. Giving it a little thought, the people I know who do that are the ones who have some issue like that. For example I have a friend who use to be like that and I think it came down to the fact that she mistakes people not agreeing with her with people not listening to her. So when I have a situation come up with her per your example, she would take it as me not listening and thus, marginalizing her feelings (in a sense, saying she's wrong for bringing up X,Y,Z and not K,L,M). Of course, in reality, I simply get side-tracked or may just want to inject some relevant information into the conversation or what have you.

The other person I know who does that simply LOVES to argue. I have no idea what the underlying cause might be, but I know she simply wants to argue and feel like she's smarter than everyone else. She won't even let you finish your statement before she starts yelping at you. I don't even bother, I just belittle her for even trying to make an argument out of nothing as I have lost all patience for that crap. It hasn't effected our friendship because I think it's like a drug, if she can't get her fix from me, she'll get it from someone else eventually.

The polite thing, of course, would be to tell the person that you don't like conversing with the person because of what they do and tell them that it makes you not want to talk to them. However, I have the ever so sneaking suspicion that the response will be akin to your "Well it's not a bad thing that I do that! ROAR!".
 
  • #3


Ugh, what a difficult person you're dealing with, Georgina :frown:! Doesn't sound pleasant at all.

Perhaps they feel threatened, for some reason. What might happen if you pay them a few compliments, kind of out of the blue? Not fawning of course, and nothing made up. If the core of this person's problem is an feeling of inferiority, perhaps that could help.
 
  • #4


In the first example
I say – I have red hair; Kelly has brown hair.
They say – Well that’s not a bad thing, you know!

This suggests to me that the use of the 'I' word here has agitated the other person; perhaps because at some unconscious level the topic of conversation wasn't about the other person.

One way to get through people is by good and intent listening accompanied by subtle body gestures, nods, and yeses to what they are saying. Keep compliments to minimum. Just hear them out.

Once the person in question senses that you are good listener, they might feel better about themselves and they might start to use you as a shrink to unload their stuff. At this stage, gradually start to withdraw listening, but still don't use the 'I' word until they ask something about you, or show interest in you. If they do, then take two steps backward and go back to listening mode. Then repeat.

In this example,

They say – I think X, Y, and Z.
I say – That’s really interesting. I hadn’t thought of X, Y, and Z before. That reminds me of an instance when someone said K,L, and M to me.
They say – I didn’t say that or mean that. That’s not what I said!

I would act like it's no big deal, and show through body language, and posture that this response hasn't affected me at all.

It takes time to work through a person like that. But it's also possible that the person has some really deep issues and there is nothing you could do.
 
  • #5


Being on the opposite side of this problem in certain cases, I hope I can shed a little insight. It seems to me, that I become defensive when tactless statements are made: even when they happen to be true. I have quite a few friends who lack tact; to their minds, truth trumps all social proprieties. Therefore, they often make observations about people which they think are perfectly true and reasonable, but are actually somewhat offensive. It gets even worse when I try to explain that their statement was offensive, and they cannot understand because "it was just an observation". I am aware that you think the statement has no value judgement, but people form irrational attachments of values to things which you might believe are free of such associations. I remember that I used to hate my freckles, and so whenever anyone brought them up I immediately became defensive; there are things, even to this day, to which I attach a value unshared by others. I think it's best that one withhold statements (unless they are of utmost importance) which could be interpreted as anything but praise. To you, it may seem that people are being irrationally defensive, but to them it may seem that you are being blunt.
 
  • #6


I couldn't see the problem with either of those scenario's given no contextual tone. I work in an area that has constant differing opinions, and those lines seem like a valid discourse.

I say – I have red hair; Kelly has brown hair.
They say – Well that’s not a bad thing, you know!

They have an interest in keeping the conversation going and are saying something generic in an attempt to get a feel for your point of view. They could also be confused as to why you made a generic statement, and want to put a feeler out for your point of view so they don't say something stereotypical about either color hair and offend you.

They say – I think X, Y, and Z.
I say – That’s really interesting. I hadn’t thought of X, Y, and Z before. That reminds me of an instance when someone said K,L, and M to me.
They say – I didn’t say that or mean that. That’s not what I said!

They perhaps think that you misunderstood what they said and may potentially misquote them, and are correcting the problem before it becomes one?

For males: Since you have concluded that there is no reasonable way someone could be offended by what you said, apologize to the person since they actually are offended, and ask them what you did to offend them so you either don't do it again or you understand whether they're just being overly sensitive and you should write it off as eccentricity and work around it.

And buy them a beer. Beer always helps!

For females: Be professional, roll your eyes privately and ignore them. Females are kinda emotionally weird and unpredictable at the best of times, let alone after you have already insulted them for unpredictable reasons.
 
  • #7


Pengwuino -- you made me laugh, as usual. But no, this isn’t a situation in which the person in question is arguing because they enjoy and argument. Although I entirely understand what you mean, having met more than one person during my lifetime who thought that “playing devil’s advocate” in each and every situation was a good thing to do. This person isn’t like that, though. This is a purely knee-jerk reaction to input I haven’t yet been able to consistently nail down. And yes, it certainly seems to be a form of this person not feeling as if she’s not being listened to. The issue I’m having with dealing with it is that I’m a very good active listener. I know the skills very well. Once you’ve given someone all of the acknowledgment you possibly can, where do you go from there?

What’s currently happening is that I’m just beginning to shut down rather than respond at all, and that’s unfortunate, because this person is rather important to me.

Lisa, it’s not pleasant and pretty frustrating. It’s a fairly recent development, though, so I think there are other factors playing on this person, and I’m bearing the brunt of it. Or something. And maybe I’m carrying over experiences from trying to deal with other people when they’ve been irrationally defensive with me, and possibly I should just meet this thing head-on with a “wtf”?! I’m not sure. I know that wouldn’t have worked in previous situations, but maybe this one.

You’re absolutely right, though, that this person feels threatened in some way, and I don’t think it has to do with me directly. Maybe I’m stepping too carefully; I don’t know.

waht, that’s all good advice and all demeanour I deploy regularly. It’s behaviour that I’ve learned so well that it’s ingrained in me and automatically how I respond to people. The examples I used were exactly that: examples that weren’t exact to actual conversations. There well may not have been an “I” involved anywhere in anything that I said. But something, that was merely a statement of fact, set the person off. That’s what I was trying to demonstrate. So, but, yeah. Again, maybe I should just try going in head-on and see what happens. I mean, truly, what’s the worst thing that can happen, huh?

Homophone, that’s a really interesting insight. I can well see why and how, when tactless statements are being made, that people can be defensive about them when the people around them don’t notice they are being tactless. Generally, what I’ve found, is that saying something to the aforementioned tactless people usually nets good results. Absolutely, sometimes people don’t know when they’ve stepped in it. If you let them know point blank, it saves everyone all kinds of grief.

Zryn, good point about the listener possibly being confused about why I’d posit the generic statement in the first place. Your point, given that example, makes perfect sense. I wonder the same thing myself and have a similar response trying to sort through what the potential relevance might be and what the point of view might be to give me some sense of where the whole thing is leading. (I’ve actually had this exact conversation with that very same person. They fed me a bunch of information on a topic about which I hadn’t inquired. I tried really, really hard to find out what their point was, exactly. What was their point? What did it mean to them? Did they place any sort of value judgement on it? What relevance did it have to their life? How did they feel about the information they’d imparted on me? That, too, was a frustrating conversation, from my perspective, because they didn’t seem to be focused on anything beyond information sharing about something that I hadn’t expressed an interest in. Not that I mind hearing and learning new stuff – quite the contrary – but I couldn’t put what they were telling me into any meaningful perspective or context. And I really wanted that; what did they think or feel about the information they’d given me? Surely they had a point of view of some sort.)

That’s not the case, though, Zryn, if I gave you more specific examples. I was only trying to illustrate something that’s so entirely innocuous that I’m having trouble figuring out why someone would have a, not just any sort of response to it, let alone a vehement one. And then, what do I do with it?

Zryn, you said this: “They perhaps think that you misunderstood what they said and may potentially misquote them, and are correcting the problem before it becomes one?” And, yes, absolutely I understood that, totally and entirely. And I said that to them, very specifically, and more than once. I said, point-blank, “Yes, I understand that you said “blah” [and reiterate in a paraphrase what they said] and that it wasn’t what I’m saying now at all. Yes, I got that. What I’m saying now is that what you said made me think of something else, and this is what it made me think of…” And they repeated how they hadn’t said “that”. “That” being the offshoot idea that I offered to them.

I was only making conversation and relaying connecting ideas. You know, the way one thought flows to the next and connects to various other ideas? Like that. But I was certain to, repeatedly, acknowledge that I heard and understood entirely what they said and that what I was talking about was something totally detached from that.

Your observation, Zryn, about females made me laugh. I’ll have to hold that in my mind.

I’m still left with how to best approach someone about their defensiveness without causing a purely defensive response.
 
  • #8


how about something direct and simple - "have i said something that has upset you ?"
 
  • #9


GeorginaS said:
Does anyone have any suggestions about how to engage someone in a conversation about defensive behaviour? How do you talk to them about it?

Here are a couple of small examples, but not the totality of what I’m dealing with:

I say – I have red hair; Kelly has brown hair.
They say – Well that’s not a bad thing, you know!

Or

They say – I think X, Y, and Z.
I say – That’s really interesting. I hadn’t thought of X, Y, and Z before. That reminds me of an instance when someone said K,L, and M to me.
They say – I didn’t say that or mean that. That’s not what I said!

Largely the cases being that I’m offering a statement that has no value judgement attached to it whatsoever and getting my head bit off for it.

It's been my experience that, when I've identified that someone is responding defensively with me in conversations, I check first to see if it’s something I’m doing. I make reasonably certain that a) I'm not attacking or threatening them, b) I’m adhering to good communication practises by acknowledging what they say and their ideas prior to introducing my own, c) I’m not lecturing/talking down to/humouring them, and d) I’m not being critical of what they’re saying.

Once I’m pretty sure it’s not me, it’s them, then I need to ask them what’s up. I’ve not figured out a way to do that yet without that person getting defensive with me about it and then the issue doesn't get resolved.

Ideas?

Can you give a real example of the behavior ? The situations you describe are ambivalent and the hair example is somehow surreal IMO, not very conclusive for me. For example try something like:

1: I am very serious at work. Kelly just kiss her boss's ***.
2: Kissing your boss *** is not a bad thing to do.

This has substance. Hair color example is nothing, it contains no load to defend. The answer is just as general as the statement. "So what?" would be the best answer to an statement like the one with the hair. Saying "Thats not I am talking about" is the nice way to answer in this case :P In fact any answer whatsoever is fit for such a statement. It is so substance-less that it doesn't worth a real answer. In the boss example, even if you are not attacking Kelly or judge her the answer has a lot of relevance. And it is not defensive. The person is simply telling something about them, about what they are. That they agree with a tactic of kissing your boss *** at the work to gain a foothold. Second, introspection is known to fail humans time and again. It can be you. I am not saying it is you, but it can.

Third, do you lately talk to that person in generalities avoiding substance in conversation ?

I was only making conversation and relaying connecting ideas. You know, the way one thought flows to the next and connects to various other ideas? Like that. But I was certain to, repeatedly, acknowledge that I heard and understood entirely what they said and that what I was talking about was something totally detached from that.


This is pretty much annoying. When someone makes statements completely detached of the conversation at hand it usually tries to avoid the conversation and steer it in a different direction. DOn't start talking about weather if you are engaged in a talk about money, before the conversation run its course. Else it may be interpreted as an avoidant behavior. You simply avoid to talk about the subject. They say something, and you jump somewhere totally unrelated. Surely, someone will sooner or later remember you that this is not the discussion he is trying to have. If I want to talk about X, Y, Z I am not really interested in K,L and M , unless they are connected in a very solid way to the events. If they are detached, why even bother to bring them in ? To try to shift focus from X,Y,Z? Or use them to avoid the discussion on X,Y,Z entirely ? Sure we can talk about them too, after we finish the conversation at hand, and should you want to talk about K, L and M for your benefit.

same person. They fed me a bunch of information on a topic about which I hadn’t inquired. I tried really, really hard to find out what their point was, exactly. What was their point? What did it mean to them? Did they place any sort of value judgement on it? What relevance did it have to their life? How did they feel about the information they’d imparted on me? That, too, was a frustrating conversation, from my perspective, because they didn’t seem to be focused on anything beyond information sharing about something that I hadn’t expressed an interest in.

Ask questions. Direct and unequivocal questions.
 
Last edited:
  • #10


Physics-Learner said:
how about something direct and simple - "have i said something that has upset you ?"

Good point. There's a good chance I'm over-thinking this.

DanP said:
Second, introspection is known to fail humans time and again. It can be you. I am not saying it is you, but it can.

Thanks, Dan.
 
  • #11


Have you tried personality tests, Georgina? Like Myers Briggs for instance. Would that help understanding social interaction?
 
  • #12


GeorginaS said:
Good point. There's a good chance I'm over-thinking this.

And another thing. While I am agreeing that asking unequivocal questions is a good way to fish information out of someone, you have to be careful, and also not hope that you will get a straight answer out of them Humans may (but not necessarily) play mind games even if they pretend they are giving straight answers to straight questions. The ability to see through does not comes easy :P

This is one of the best scenes which comically illustrates the effort of humans to understand others in their social relations:



This scene may be exaggerated and comical, but in essence this is what we humans do on a daily basis in figuring others socially.Your predicament reminded me of it. Psychology calls it "theory of mind"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #13


such people may be hopelessly insecure. in my experience nothing can be done to have a normal conversation with them. one can only listen and nod, or ask mild questions and listen attentively. i am not at all good at this.
 
  • #14


mathwonk said:
such people may be hopelessly insecure. in my experience nothing can be done to have a normal conversation with them. one can only listen and nod, or ask mild questions and listen attentively. i am not at all good at this.

My friend was hopelessly insecure. Divorce + biweekly drinking at a bar seemed to fix that though. I'm not sure how... it just worked for some reason.
 
  • #15


Pengwuino said:
My friend was hopelessly insecure. Divorce + biweekly drinking at a bar seemed to fix that though. I'm not sure how... it just worked for some reason.

Alcohol: the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.*

*Homer Simpson
 
  • #16


I read somewhere that Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. Possibly in the bible?
 
  • #17


This reminds me of an old soviet joke; an American is in the subway in Moscow in 1960 waiting for a train. After a couple of hours he asks a soviet citizen "when does the train come?" the response is:" And what about your black people!"
 
  • #18


mathwonk said:
This reminds me of an old soviet joke; an American is in the subway in Moscow in 1960 waiting for a train. After a couple of hours he asks a soviet citizen "when does the train come?" the response is:" And what about your black people!"

:rofl:...sigh...
 
  • #19


mathwonk said:
This reminds me of an old soviet joke; an American is in the subway in Moscow in 1960 waiting for a train. After a couple of hours he asks a soviet citizen "when does the train come?" the response is:" And what about your black people!"

Yes, what about them ? :wink:
 
  • #20


mathwonk said:
This reminds me of an old soviet joke; an American is in the subway in Moscow in 1960 waiting for a train. After a couple of hours he asks a soviet citizen "when does the train come?" the response is:" And what about your black people!"

Are there some words missing from that joke? It's as if I almost get it but not quite.

Yes, some people are astoundingly insecure. That's true. And in this case, that appears to be the driving force of the responses I get.
 
  • #21


GeorginaS said:
Does anyone have any suggestions about how to engage someone in a conversation about defensive behaviour? How do you talk to them about it?

Here are a couple of small examples, but not the totality of what I’m dealing with:

I say – I have red hair; Kelly has brown hair.
They say – Well that’s not a bad thing, you know!

Or

They say – I think X, Y, and Z.
I say – That’s really interesting. I hadn’t thought of X, Y, and Z before. That reminds me of an instance when someone said K,L, and M to me.
They say – I didn’t say that or mean that. That’s not what I said!

Largely the cases being that I’m offering a statement that has no value judgement attached to it whatsoever and getting my head bit off for it.

It's been my experience that, when I've identified that someone is responding defensively with me in conversations, I check first to see if it’s something I’m doing. I make reasonably certain that a) I'm not attacking or threatening them, b) I’m adhering to good communication practises by acknowledging what they say and their ideas prior to introducing my own, c) I’m not lecturing/talking down to/humouring them, and d) I’m not being critical of what they’re saying.

Once I’m pretty sure it’s not me, it’s them, then I need to ask them what’s up. I’ve not figured out a way to do that yet without that person getting defensive with me about it and then the issue doesn't get resolved.

Ideas?

Hi Georgina, :smile:

The hypothetical situations you've presented seem to indicate, as others have mentioned, that you're facing a significant amount of insecurity. I can't find any error in your responses, introspective considerations, or reasoning. The responses you're getting are awkward and illogical, so attempting to find a reasonable explanation and/or solution might prove to be frustrating and fruitless. :frown:

Some people, whether they're aware of it or not, validate their world-view's by seeking out offense. I've not been successful in navigating this type of person's convoluted and dangerous relational interactions. Frankly, I find it exhausting and highly frustrating. I feel like I'm trying to cross a river by stepping on stones that constantly move, leaving me vulnerable to an involuntary bath at any second.

You're an adept communicator and have no reason to doubt yourself. Quite frankly, I'm honored that you're asking us for advice! You're usually the person with the answers! :wink:

My conclusion?

Fortunately, yes, fortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do. Keep being yourself! I know you're looking for some specific ideas, but, sometimes, finding out that there's nothing you can do is quite liberating. :smile:
 
Last edited:
  • #22


Dembadon said:
Hi Georgina, :smile:

I can't find any error in your responses, introspective considerations, or reasoning.

We have no idea what is actually going on there because she refused to disclose the actual dialog, but one thing which I find very annoying is to have to talk to someone who always switches the discussion to something else. If its a serious discussion ofc. If its gossip or a free for all nobody really cares.

As I said, if I talk seriously about X, Y, Z with someone I find it annoying to have a reply "you know, K, L, M" where K,L,M are completely unrelated and the person knows that. It's XYZ who I am interested in talking, not to have sidetrips in l avoidance filled with KLM.

Im not saying that this happens there, I don't know what happens there. We only have her perception of events, not even a real dialogue sample and we have no idea of the social context of the discussion.

Another interesting remark is that I came for the first time in serious contact with the term "defensiveness" in the anglo-saxon world. It seem to me overused. Chicks liked it a lot. In fact what happened was than no one listened to no one else, and everybody talked alone, and so they liked to call each other defensive.
 
Last edited:
  • #23


DanP said:
[...]

Im not saying that this happens there, I don't know what happens there. We only have her perception of events.

[...]

And I think Georgina has the self-awareness and social intelligence to give us perceptions that are very accurate.

At any rate, she didn't ask whether or not the person had the right to be defensive, she asked for ideas about how to deal with someone who's being defensive. Addressing the former is missing the point, in my opinion.
 
  • #24


Dembadon said:
And I think Georgina has the self-awareness and social intelligence to give us perceptions that are very accurate.

Might be. Might not. Cognitive biases and a special kind of self serving biases which can't be explained cognitively hit even the most aware of the humans. Introspective biases are dime a dozen. Nobody is immune.

Dembadon said:
At any rate, she didn't ask whether or not the person had the right to be defensive, she asked for ideas about how to deal with someone who's being defensive. Addressing the former is missing the point, in my opinion.

From the scenarios she painted I cannot say if that man is defensive or not. It appears so,
and she says it occures time and again, which is also hinting in this direction.

But you can't say for sure whithout the social context and a verbatim of the exchange.
 
Last edited:
  • #25


Georgina, would the joke have been clearer if the punchline had been, :"and so's your old man!"?
 
  • #26


Dembadon said:
Hi Georgina, :smile:

The hypothetical situations you've presented seem to indicate, as others have mentioned, that you're facing a significant amount of insecurity. I can't find any error in your responses, introspective considerations, or reasoning. The responses you're getting are awkward and illogical, so attempting to find a reasonable explanation and/or solution might prove to be frustrating and fruitless. :frown:

Some people, whether they're aware of it or not, validate their world-view's by seeking out offense. I've not been successful in navigating this type of person's convoluted and dangerous relational interactions. Frankly, I find it exhausting and highly frustrating. I feel like I'm trying to cross a river by stepping on stones that constantly move, leaving me vulnerable to an involuntary bath at any second.

You're an adept communicator and have no reason to doubt yourself. Quite frankly, I'm honored that you're asking us for advice! You're usually the person with the answers! :wink:

My conclusion?

Fortunately, yes, fortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do. Keep being yourself! I know you're looking for some specific ideas, but, sometimes, finding out that there's nothing you can do is quite liberating. :smile:

Hi Dembadon, :smile:

All of that was high praise indeed, thank you! I have no idea what I’ve done to warrant that.

And yes, you’re quite right, I was specifically looking for potential approaches or solutions, having already identified the problem. Taking my own pulse first is always the step when I’m curious about someone else’s behaviour. And when someone is important to you, it’s in everyone’s best interest to be absolutely honest with yourself. Navigating their behaviour, though, as you pointed out, is tricky, and sometimes one has to wonder whether or not it’s actually worth it. (Your crossing a river metaphor was both apt and excellent.)

And also, yes, there really isn’t a whole lot you can do, because the issue isn’t yours – or mine, in this case – but that person's. I can’t cure their insecurities, nor do I want to try; that’s absolutely something they have to handle for themselves. I cannot fix it for them, no matter the encouragement I give them. Nor can I undo the damage inflicted on them by so many people before me. One particular line sprang to mind while trying to sort through this, and I have no idea whether or not it’s original to me, but I thought, “When do we get to stop paying for the sins of others?”

We’re each of us the sum of our experiences, and sometimes other people leave such deep marks on a person that I’m not certain one lifetime is sufficient for those marks to be undone. It’s a bit of a puzzle for me at the moment, because, while I acknowledge that I too have marks left on me by other people, and I know that, periodically, I’ll respond to someone based on learned behaviour from experience with someone else, I can generally recognise it pretty quickly. It’s impossible, I think, to wipe the slate entirely clean between various sorts of relationships with people, and not anticipate a like response to similar stimuli, even though the response came from another person. Granted, people react differently, but we sometimes become conditioned to responses so when we’re exposed to new people, or getting involved with a new person, we draw on experience to tell us what’s happening or what may happen next. I’m fairly certain we all do it. The degree to which we do it, and how quickly we separate one person from the next, is a question.

The only idea that has really occurred to me, at this point, and was pointed out to me in this thread, was the point-blank approach of asking. History has taught me that attempting to discuss defensive responses leads to more defensive responses, but I’m willing to give it a go with a new person. Perhaps their response will be different.

And I discovered, in quite a round about way, that I wasn’t wrong in my assessment of the situation. They eventually, and spontaneously told me about something else that someone else had said/done had provoked a defensive response from them, because they felt personally attacked (although that wasn’t actually at all what was going on with that situation either, and I’d witnessed it, but I could certainly understand where they were coming from). I was taking the brunt of their reaction to that perceived personal attack until they discussed it with me, and that diffused all of their behaviour with me without my doing a thing about it. I’m hazarding a guess that any future repeats of this can, therefore, likely be met with, “Who has upset you?” and I think that might short circuit the whole process. I think.

Gads people are a lot of work.

At any rate, again, thank you, Dembadon, for your kind words. I really appreciate them.
 
  • #27


DanP said:
We have no idea what is actually going on there because she refused to disclose the actual dialog, but one thing which I find very annoying is to have to talk to someone who always switches the discussion to something else. If its a serious discussion ofc. If its gossip or a free for all nobody really cares.

As I said, if I talk seriously about X, Y, Z with someone I find it annoying to have a reply "you know, K, L, M" where K,L,M are completely unrelated and the person knows that. It's XYZ who I am interested in talking, not to have sidetrips in l avoidance filled with KLM.

Im not saying that this happens there, I don't know what happens there. We only have her perception of events, not even a real dialogue sample and we have no idea of the social context of the discussion.

Dan,

I realize that without more specific context it’s difficult to assess what behaviour I’m being presented with. I will not present, in a public forum, verbatim conversations coupled with specific context, because, while the person in question does not frequent this site, it would be inappropriate for me to lay public our personal conversations. I therefore need to ask you to trust me that I’d performed a full run-down on my own behaviour and potential contribution to their behaviour prior to asking for help with solutions.

Sorry for not being more revelatory, which you indicate would better assist you in responding, but respect for someone else’s words shared with me prevents me from being more precise.

I can say, though, that social context was entirely private and personal conversations between two people who were simply engaging in conversation for the sake of enjoying each other’s company.

And I can certainly appreciate what you’re saying when you talk about feeling annoyed when you are trying to discuss X, Y, Z and someone flings off into K, L, M. X, Y, Z is the subject at hand – and possible even entails questions – so shooting off into K, L, M isn’t helpful or desirable or anything. I’m entirely with you there. I have a young co-worker who I’m teaching, very directly, not to do that. I ask her specific questions, it reminds her of something else, so she tells me about that instead, rather than answering my specific question. That’s just how her mind works, though, and we’ve learned to laugh about it. While she still does it, she’s at least aware of it, and I won’t have to smother her out of frustration any time soon.

The example I was giving in my current situation, though, isn’t like that at all. It’s just a normal conversation flow. I even tried it out, experimentally, with other with whom I have casual, comfortable, friend-conversations. They tell me about X, Y, Z and we discuss that. I acknowledge it, we chew on it for a bit, and then, in the natural course of a conversation, wherein one idea leads to another, I can insert, “Your X, Y, Z reminds me of something similar that went K, L, M” and they didn’t take issue with the introduction of new or segued ideas at all. They eagerly listened to the idea associations that were being made.

From that I understood _-- what I’d already known but apparently needed to test again – that conversations flow that way, without upsetting anyone.

Your points are well taken, Dan, and I apologise for offering this concept so abstractly. I hope my explanation for why I’m careful with the precise disclosure of words spoken by another person suffice. I appreciate, though, that you’re saying the examples I’m offering are specific to illustrating the conclusion I’d arrived at, which is a accurate observation.
 
  • #28


mathwonk said:
Georgina, would the joke have been clearer if the punchline had been, :"and so's your old man!"?

I think my brain's not functioning properly, mathwonk. Sorry. I'm certain what you said was funny. I'm just not connecting the dots. Perhaps if I weren't so tired when I read here. :smile:
 
  • #29


GeorginaS said:
Dan,
Your points are well taken, Dan, and I apologise for offering this concept so abstractly. I hope my explanation for why I’m careful with the precise disclosure of words spoken by another person suffice. I appreciate, though, that you’re saying the examples I’m offering are specific to illustrating the conclusion I’d arrived at, which is a accurate observation.

You really don't have to apologize for anything, Georgina. You was always nice to all ppl around here.

If you want then my opinion on this scenario, it goes like this.IMO Ppl change very hard in some behaviors. Just look around you: ppl have the choice to stop overeating, stop smoking, start to exercise. How many of them succeed such a change, even when they have all the reasons in the world to doit ? 2 in 10 ? God knows, just a number, but when you look around you you see that the number is small.

The same is with social behavior. The vast majority of ppl won't change their behavior.

So I don't try to change ppl. ( I am biased. I've been told that I actually tried several times :P )

If they are not close social relations (like work and so on), I don't bother, I simply try to circumnavigate them.

If they are close social relations, I usually tell them what bothers me several times, but I don't expect change. If it comes it's welcome. If not:

1. A person is a total package. A trait of X bothers me, but all his others traits are great so I go utilitarian and keep the relation (and I am very well "at peace" inside me after I've reached the decision). I won't insist on change anymore.

2. Trait X is that annoying that it bothers me to no end. I won't stay near that person. I won't expose myself to chronic stress just for the sake of someone's company. I seen something in that person someday, I don't seeit anymore, so beit. We where friends once, there is no rule t say friendships must hold for a lifetime. BYEEE =)

3. Family. Blood is blood. You never turn blood from your life IMO. Some relations may get colder in time due to differences in behaviors, but you never turn blood out of your life. When the time comes, blood will be near you. I pretty much accept and love them anyway they are, unless they would turn directly against me.

This is just how I do, but I am not a very fond of subtle manipulations in life. Others are. Their mileage may vary. My opinion: go utilitarian if he doesn't change on it;s own, thing which IMO has a low chance of happening. The gray is not bad as long as you are happy with it :P
 
Last edited:
  • #30


I appreciate your insights, Dan.

Honestly, I don't expect or demand or even contemplate change from other people when it comes to their basic personality quirks. As you said, people are a whole package, and you have to decide for yourself what outweighs what.

Sometimes there are better or different ways to cope with other peoples' behaviour that I may not be aware of. That's why I ask. :smile: One's own reaction to other peoples' behaviour can frequently make a huge difference in how a situation plays out.
 
  • #31


GeorginaS said:
Sometimes there are better or different ways to cope with other peoples' behaviour that I may not be aware of.

So true. Many different ways and what works for me will probably not work very well for someone with a different personality.

GeorginaS said:
One's own reaction to other peoples' behaviour can frequently make a huge difference in how a situation plays out.

Yes. But in the end, I prefer to be myself and not copy other;s ppl behavior, no matter the consequences. I like to recognize myself when I look in a mirror, no matter that sometimes I royally screw things up :P

You can all go to hell…I’m going to Texas
Col. Davy Crockett
 
  • #32


I suppose, then, we have different approaches, Dan. I think of asking for ideas from other people, because I regard ideas as tools, techniques, and skills to learn. I don't consider learning new approaches to various situations as not being myself. I'm learning new skills. It's all information.
 
  • #33


GeorginaS said:
I suppose, then, we have different approaches, Dan. I think of asking for ideas from other people, because I regard ideas as tools, techniques, and skills to learn. I don't consider learning new approaches to various situations as not being myself. I'm learning new skills. It's all information.

Turns out, some of the ideas you get from others are very cool, but to apply them would require to changes your behavior as well, because you are different by them. Similar tools work well for similar people. It really depends how open you are at changing yourself for the sake of others. And even if you are open and willing , how successful will you be at actually implementing those changes.

Why do you think in so many cases marital consultants are left with the task to get ppl accustomed with the idea they will get divorced ? :devil: And they are experts in teaching tools and techniques.

Luckily, there are many ways to skin a cat. Hope you find yours. just my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
  • #34


From my experience, I now approach conversations with a gentle, but blunt attitude. That is because, like many others have posted here, you will never be able to understand the inner workings of other people. However, you do know how you feel (to a certain degree), and generally what is causing the confusion for yourself.

So, if a person becomes defensive because of what I said, I would first acknowledge that I felt (for I don't know) that they were offended, and I would ask. If they become silent or more defensive, I will simply apologize and acknowledge that I still do not know what they were defensive about, but I would like to know so I try not to speak about the trigger that bothers them again. Then we can steer the conversation elsewhere or I leave that person be. If there is too many issues that they have with regards to my conversation patterns with them, then chances are I would decrease my time with them or it would just be too difficult to maintain close-contact with the said person (I would also let them know about it, for it isn't any of our problems, it's just a problem of compatibility). The rest is their problem.

If I went about the route I did before, I would be in a situational crisis, playing out every single detail and scenario that for my entire time I would just spend thinking about how to deal with people, and less time just being myself. Putting a mask on yourself is one of the worst things you can do, especially for close-relationships.

If they like to change topics, and if the topic I was discussing was important for me, I would insist that we continuing talking about XYZ because I felt that I needed more time on it. If they go to KLM, I would just stop the conversation there, apologize, and tell them I will need to figure XYZ myself or talk to others about it, for it is still something that troubles me.

Even if I end up hurting them, I've already made effort to acknowledging my feelings and thoughts about the situation. I was being truthful to myself, while trying to acknowledge their possible feelings as well to the best of my ability. If I wore the said-mask to deal with others and dwell on it, it usually ends up with blowing up the situation to unnecessary proportions.

Another note that probably helps with what bothers you is by expecting more of yourself and less of others (as you can never be in their shoes). Every individual has their unique way of doing things, and by acknowledging that will most likely save you a lot of trouble in the long run.
 
Last edited:

1. What is defensive behaviour?

Defensive behaviour is a psychological response to perceived threats or attacks. It is a way for individuals to protect themselves and their self-esteem from criticism, rejection, or failure.

2. Why do people exhibit defensive behaviour?

People exhibit defensive behaviour as a way to cope with feelings of insecurity, vulnerability, or fear. It can also be a learned behaviour from past experiences or a result of low self-esteem.

3. How does defensive behaviour impact communication?

Defensive behaviour can hinder effective communication by creating barriers between individuals. It can lead to misunderstandings, defensiveness, and a breakdown in trust and openness.

4. How can we manage defensive behaviour in conversations?

To manage defensive behaviour in conversations, it is essential to approach the situation with empathy and understanding. Avoid using accusatory language and focus on active listening and finding common ground.

5. Can defensive behaviour be unlearned?

Yes, defensive behaviour can be unlearned through self-awareness, therapy, and practicing healthier communication habits. It takes time and effort, but it is possible to change defensive patterns and improve relationships.

Similar threads

  • General Discussion
2
Replies
43
Views
2K
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • General Discussion
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
5
Views
309
  • General Discussion
Replies
19
Views
781
Replies
30
Views
2K
Replies
14
Views
374
Replies
13
Views
895
  • General Discussion
Replies
4
Views
605
Back
Top