Can we measure absolute velocity?

[Ian]

Is there a method of determining exactly how fast the Earth is moving through space? By this I mean the overall velocity with the galaxy/galactic group.
I know we can measure changes in the parallax motions of the stars, but can we measure our absolute velocity without looking outside the Earth's sphere?

Thanks,
Ian.

 

[russ_watters]

We can measure our speed with respect to the cosmological background radiation by adjusting for redshift/blueshift, but we can't really be sure that's an "absolute" reference frame. According to Einstein, such a concept is unnecessary.

 

[HallsofIvy]

No, we can not measure "absolute velocity" for the very good reason that there is no such thing as "absolute velocity"!

 

[dlgoff]

No, we can not measure "absolute velocity" for the very good reason that there is no such thing as "absolute velocity"!

What about the universe expansion rate? Wouldn't its instantaneous velocity be absolute?

 

[marcus]

Originally posted by dlgoff
What about the universe expansion rate? Wouldn't its instantaneous velocity be absolute?

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=137931#post137931



you suggest looking at the "instantaneous velocity" of expansion
but the distant galaxies are all receding at different rates depending on how far away they are
the more distant they are the faster they recede away from us.

so this is not a good way to get an absolute standard of speed
(recession speeds being all different)
but we don't need another absolute speed standard besides the one we alreay have----we already got c.

-------------
from your question I can filter out two questions actually
A. is there an absolute standard of speed? (answer is Yes)
B. is there a special distinguished frame of reference
that can be used to measure speeds?
an intrinsic idea of being "at rest" in the universe?
-------------

cosmologists often use the expansion of the universe ("Hubble flow") to define an absolute rest frame

this corresponds to the one russ_watters mentioned: the CMB frame

the solar system is said to be moving 370 km/s in the direction of the constellation Leo with respect to the Microwave Background and that is the same as saying that it is moving 370 km/s in the direction of Leo with respect to the Hubble flow.

I can get some links, the speed was measured by COBE satellite and before that by a Lawrence Lab U-2 airplane observatory.

This is the 1996 report of the COBE project
that determined our speed to be 370 km/s
http://arxiv.org/astro-ph/9601151


This shows a starmap with the hotspot in Leo made by the U-2 airplane:
http://aether.lbl.gov/www/projects/u2/


If you are at rest with respect to Background that means that there is no doppler hotspot in one part of the sky caused by your moving towards it and no doppler coldspot the other way caused by your moving away from it-----in all directions the Background looks the same wavelength mix, the same temperature.

if you are at rest with respect to the Hubble flow that means in all directions you see the distant galaxies are receding at the same rates (which are greater the more distant they are)
so the expansion around you looks uniform or symmetrical or as they say "isotropic". If there are people living in other galaxies then they also have access to this simple universal idea of being at rest

and being at rest with respect to expansion process (Hubble flow) is the same as being at rest with respect to Backgound.

it is a very useful reference frame for cosmologists so in their papers you will see velocities given sometimes relative to this frame

I will try to find a link to illustrate.

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0210165
this says our local group of galaxies is moving 627 km/s
with respect to Background (CMB)

 

[dlgoff]

Thanks marcus. I didn't realize

...distant galaxies are all receding at different rates depending on how far away they are

 

[marcus]

Originally posted by dlgoff
... I didn't realize

lots of wonderful things in store then

BTW did you look at this?
http://aether.lbl.gov/www/projects/u2/

it shows the hotspot in the cosmic microwave background
against the star-map (to give landmarks)

if you can locate Orion in the sky tonight then you
can see the direction of our absolute motion

face south
around 8PM Orion should be overhead (on meridian)
and to the left of Orion , more to the east, is the
constellation Leo where the doppler hotspot is.

later in the evening Orion should be moving to the right,
more to the west, and Leo should rise some and be
more overhead

by midnight Leo should be on the meridian (the dividing
centerline between east sky and west sky)

I'm assuming you are in northern hemisph otherwise right and
left are mixed up

the cold spot in the microwave background
(cold because we are fleeing from it and the freqs get
doppler downshifted) is in constellation Aquarius

wont be seeing that until summer or fall

catch Leo while you can

 

[marcus]

Don, of course youre in N. hemisphere, Kansas I see!

Well the big story in astronomy in the past 10 years is
they finally measured the Hubble parameter
Wendy Freedman's team did it with the Hubble Space Telescope

all the other stuff you hear about (dark energy, accelerating expansion, and so on) mostly depends on inferences and
knowing the Hubble parameter (the main gauge of expansion rate)
is basic to all that inference.

so when you hear people talking excitedly about this and that, the reason they can confidently make all those inferences is because
H is now between tight error bounds

In 1998 the "Hubble Key Project" team reported that it was
71 plus or minus 3 or something like that
between 68 and 74, if I remember, at some level of confidence.

So you better begin by understanding what that 71 means


In the clunky-sounding units astronomer are unfortunate enough to use, it means

71 kilometers per second per Megaparsec

this is something to get straight---a megaparsec is a tom-fool unit of distance which is about 3 million lightyears

this says that (except for random movements and accidental noise like that)
if you go out one Megaparsec you see stuff receding at 71 km/s

and if you go out two Megaparsecs you see stuff receding at 142 km/s

and if you go out three M's you see stuff receding at 213 km/s

that is, on average, and discounting our own motion towards Leo.

if you subtract off our own motion in the Leo direction of about 370 km/s

then you get a picture that is fairly symmetric that all around us things are receding at speeds proportional to their distance by this proportion they call H.

good luck understanding the universe, heh heh, nobody every has

 

[dlgoff]

BTW did you look at this?

Yes I did marcus. There's so much to learn. Mostly I've only been looking at the "small" of physics. But I do look at the sky in wonder.

Orion is easily visible this time of the year. I'll look for Leo as you susgest. Cool stuf.

I'll keep reading your links. Thank you.

Regards

 

[Loren Booda]

Can we construct a physical space similar to ours in which one may measure absolute velocities exactly (like we now measure the speed of light)? In an exponentially inflationary universe, does even acceleration appear absolute?

 

[marcus]

I got a message today from Ian

"Have you any idea if this is the direction of motion of our galactic group or just the direction of the Sun."

this is something that Warren (chroot) knows about in some detail
and I hope he sees this and responds
in addition to my response

there are several absolute motions that astronomers have determined fairly accurately

there is our galaxy's going something about 600 km/s in the direction of Crater (I am being imprecise)

but it is a bit like a spinning "Frisbie" sailing along and turning
at the same time
so a point on the frisbie, like the sun,
if the spin was carrying it backwards
could be going not so fast

and in fact the sun is on the side of the galaxy where the spin is carrying it backwards and it is going only 370 km/s

and also in a slightly different direction (coordinates in Leo, not Crater) which happens because of the galaxy being tilted with respect to its direction of motion and the sun's orbit around Galactic center not being exactly planar and nagging trivia like that.

the basic picture, neglecting minor details
is that the sun's speed IN THE GALAXY is about 250 km/s in a direction that happens currently to be roughly BACKWARDS from
where the galaxy is going.

and the absolute sun speed is 370 km/s

because it has that 250 km/s knocked off

so if the sun wasnt going backwards it would be traveling
620 km/s towards crater, along with the center of the galaxy and
the average motion of the galaxy. (the 620 = 250 + 370 is
only approximate)
---------------------------------------

now about the LOCAL GROUP there was that article that Warren found where they give the speed and exact coordinates of the absolute motion of the local group

And as I recall it was not very different from what Milkyway is doing on its own. Milkyway is very massive----I think even more than Andromeda which is the other biggie in our group.

so whatever Milkyway is doing is roughly typical of the local group.
I think the group is also going to a direction in Crater but maybe just not exactly the same numerical coordinates.

the coordinates are impossible to remember
------------------------------------------

as in daily life, there are unlimited ways of defining collectivities, your choir your church your town your county your territory your continent your planet

so it is always an openended vague game you start playing when you say where are "we" going

so there is also the Virgo Cluster
with which our local group is tenuously connected and which
I am told is heading towards a vague big patch of sky called
"Hydra-Centaurus" where something with a hokey name of "the great attractor" lives

well for a start I would not bother with all that because
saying Crater is almost the same but more precise
Hydra and Centaurus are huge constellations spread all over the southern sky map

so it is very hand-wavy to say HydraCentaurus as a direction

and it is very vague to talk about where the Virgo Cluster and its hangers-on are going because IMO it cannot be determined very well in the first place
----------

so in the infinite tower of clustering I tend to stop with the local group and not worry about larger groupings

-------------

so suppose you went out tonight and wanted to see where our galaxy or (what is almost the same thing) our local group
is going

you should probably spot it by looking for a diamond-shape
rhombus of stars called Corvus

Corvus is in the southern sky and it is a close neighbor of Crater
so since Crater is dim
it is a good thing to look for this Corvus diamond of 4 stars with one in the middle

Corvus is like an oldfashioned crossed-sticks-and-paper kite that kids used to fly.