They are listed as Greek when they aren't really Greek

  • Thread starter jackson6612
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In summary: That sounds like a difficult question to answer.In summary, the Greeks were originally from Egypt, but some of their most famous mathematicians were born there. They spoke Greek and followed Greek customs and worshiped Greek gods, but were still Egyptians. The Roman city of Alexandria was later renamed after Alexander the Great, a Greek, and then an Arab city. There were Egyptians living in Alexandria even when they spoke Greek, followed Greek culture, etc. It's hard to say which group an individual belongs to based on one criterion, but it's easy to say he's a Greek based on other criteria.
  • #1
jackson6612
334
1
Hi

I was just reading about Heron of Alexandria. One important question came to my mind which has recurred several times before. As you know there were many scientists and mathematicians of Egyptian origin, in particular from Alexandria. I couldn't recall any particular list of the persons at the moment. But I'm sure you are already aware of many of those ancient minds. What puzzles me is that they are listed as Greek when they aren't really Greek. It's just like calling some Indian of British Raj days an English. He could be called a British Raj Indian but not an English, not at all. Please help me with this.
 
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  • #2
A few Greek mathematicians were born in Egypt. This could certainly confuse the issue.

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/BirthplaceMaps/Countries/Egypt.html [Broken]
 
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  • #3
Alexandria was a Hellenic city in Egypt. For hundreds of years, the occupants there were primarily Greek. They spoke Greek and followed Greek customs and worshiped Greek gods. Egyptian people at the time (something like 300 BC to AD 50-ish? You look it up) were a minority in the city. It was a Roman city for the next few centuries, and then an Arab city about AD 600.

Nationalities weren't as they are today.
 
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  • #4
Alexandria was a Hellenic city in Egypt. For hundreds of years, the occupants there were primarily Greek. They spoke Greek and followed Greek customs and worshiped Greek gods.
They were still Egyptians even if they spoke Greek, followed Greek culture etc. Perhaps, you could elaborate on your points. I believe there were persons of different faiths in Egypt at that time - some were more like Greeks in terms of culture, language, etc, and others were more like non-Greeks. They all were still residing in Egypt. A Jew who did some great work in Germany is a German Jew, or just German, not an Israeli.
 
  • #5
jackson6612 said:
They were still Egyptians even if they spoke Greek, followed Greek culture etc. Perhaps, you could elaborate on your points. I believe there were persons of different faiths in Egypt at that time - some were more like Greeks in terms of culture, language, etc, and others were more like non-Greeks. They all were still residing in Egypt. A Jew who did some great work in Germany is a German Jew, or just German, not an Israeli.

Hi, jackson!

You raise intersting points.

For example, was the Roman Emperor "Philip the Arab" "truly" a Roman, or "just" a romanized..Arab?

It really depends on developing proper, precise concepts!
But this can be very difficult to apply in practice, since the categories will overlap in non-trivial ways:

1. One such grouping could be a racial/tribal/ethnic grouping(s), where membership is determined by some degree of intermarriage and common lines of descent.

2. A second can be that of a <i>linguistic</i> community, where some maximal restraint is put upon dialectal variation within that "community"

3. A third can be a community with <i>shared acculturation</i>, where again, som maximal restraint upon intracultural variation is laid down as requirement for membership.

4. A fourth can be a subset of 3, say those belonging to the "same" religious faith group.

5. A fifth can be whatever community is within some geographical area, perhaps with meaningful units made on basis of the requirement on some minimal level of interaction between the people living there.

For each of these criteria, humanity will be divided into different subsets, each representing a distinct type or grouping, according to that particular criterion..


Now, for any particular individual, it can be quite easy to associate him with a definite grouping using one particular criterion, but dreadfully difficult to find which sub-group he belongs to when trying to use another of those criteria.
 
  • #6
Trying to impose the modern idea of the nation-state on civilizations of antiquity is doomed to failure. Using the modern boundaries makes even less sense. Alexandria was a city whose residents considered themselves Greek, and had no idea that in some time in the future the surrounding area would be called "Egypt" and that modern Greece would be limited to Epirus, Thessaly, points south and the Peloponnese.
 
  • #7
What about Jimmy the Greek? He was from Steubenville so he should have been called Jimmy the Ohioan by modern standards.
 
  • #8
There are innumerable examples of that still in play. Both Canada and the USA claim Alexander Graham Bell, even though he was born in Scotland. My father's friend and neighbour in Almont Ontario invented basketball. It consisted at that time, however, of him nailing a peach basket to his barn door and having people throw a soccer ball at it. It wasn't until he was on the athletic faculty of a New York university that he formalized the game. So is that a Yank invention or a Canuk one? The vast majority of highly-ranked NASA engineers were refugees from the Avro Arrow project when the moron-in-office scrapped it. Does that make the moon landing a Canadian achievement, even though the Yanks provided all of the money and infrastructure? Or a German one, since Werner von Braun introduced the entire concept of rockets to North America when he fled the Nazis? Or how about Ben Johnson... he moved here from Jamaica and ran for us in the Olympics. We were all immensely proud of him for being Canadian... until he tested positive for 'roids. Then it was "oh yeah... that guy from Jamaica."
As for the ancient cultures referred to in the OP, I honestly don't know how one would draw the lines. It's not as if they had GPS. The borders of a nation were pretty much defined by what extent of territory they could defend. Someone could be Egyptian one day and Persian the next, just because someone happened to stroll through the neighbourhood with more horses and archers than the current administration could muster. (Okay... that was just a top-of-my-head opinion; I have no education in history or geography or cultural anthropology. I'll just bow out now.)

edit: I didn't mean to step on your toes there, Vanadium. You sneaked your post in while I was still composing mine.
 
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  • #9
Jimmy Snyder said:
What about Jimmy the Greek? He was from Steubenville so he should have been called Jimmy the Ohioan by modern standards.

I think that the argument is somewhat irrelevant. After all, I'm pretty damned sure that Freddy the Nose Minetti wasn't born through a nasal passage.

By the bye, Jimmy... aren't you sharing an entire name with him? Are you him? :uhh:
 
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  • #10
Vanadium 50 said:
Alexandria was a city whose residents considered themselves Greek, and had no idea that in some time in the future the surrounding area would be called "Egypt" and that modern Greece would be limited to Epirus, Thessaly, points south and the Peloponnese.
Some of Alexandria's population regarded themselves as "Greeks", others might well have vociferously regarded themselves as something different.

Some, for example, would think of themselves as Macedonians, rather than generally "Greek", others would not have regarded themselves as any of that, for example thinking of themselves as subjected native people of a "true" Egyptian stock.
Others would have thought of themselves as Nubians.
 
  • #11
Danger said:
Are you him?
Actually, he changed his name to Snyder from his birth name. I sued him at the time, (Snyder v Snyder) but the case never went anywhere due to confusion on the part of the attorneys, judge, and jury. We settled out of court and he took the name Jimmy the Ohioan. It was the governor of Ohio that suggested he use the name Jimmy the Greek.
 
  • #12
Jimmy Snyder said:
Actually, he changed his name to Snyder from his birth name. I sued him at the time, (Snyder v Snyder) but the case never went anywhere due to confusion on the part of the attorneys, judge, and jury. We settled out of court and he took the name Jimmy the Ohioan. It was the governor of Ohio that suggested he use the name Jimmy the Greek.

It never ceases to amaze me how much fascinating **** arises from what was intended to be a dumb-*** joke.
What, may I inquire, was the basis for the suit? The first thing that comes to mind would be some perceived damage to your reputation, but that doesn't ring true to me because there must be several hundred Jimmy Snyders in the US who were born with that name. You wouldn't be able to sue any of them for that same reason. (One of my legal difficulties, which was rapidly remedied, arose from the fact that there are 20 guys with my name currently incarcerated in Alberta... never mind how many are running around loose. A rookie cop checked my ID, immediately assumed that I had escaped from prison, and took me into custody. It was straightened out pretty quickly when the RCMP receptionist pulled the file up on her computer and noticed that the "escapee" had a different middle name, was born 30 years after I was, and lived in a town that I had never even visited.)
 
  • #13
Danger said:
that doesn't ring true to me
Nothing gets past you Danger.
Danger said:
because there must be several hundred Jimmy Snyders in the US who were born with that name.
Five are semi-famous.
The driver who came in second in the 1939 Indy 500.
An actor with a bit part in Terminator III.
Winner of a Country Music Award (I don't recall which award it was)
One of the managers of the Minnesota Twins.
Jimmy the Greek. Actully famous, but not by the name Jimmy Snyder
I have not included James, no one ever calls me James.
 
  • #14
jackson6612 said:
They were still Egyptians even if they spoke Greek, followed Greek culture etc. Perhaps, you could elaborate on your points. I believe there were persons of different faiths in Egypt at that time - some were more like Greeks in terms of culture, language, etc, and others were more like non-Greeks. They all were still residing in Egypt. A Jew who did some great work in Germany is a German Jew, or just German, not an Israeli.

Vanadium answered it well, but just one more point:
There was no country of "Greece" at the time. There were Greek people who lived in many places. The great Greek civilizations were mostly "City-states," where the nation was the city itself (Athens and Sparta being the most memorable of those). So to the residents of Alexandria, at least in the first few centuries, their city was a Greek city. If you asked a Greek Alexandrian if they were Greek or Egyptian, they would probably think you were crazy.

Again, our modern definitions of "Nationality" are very different nowadays, what with our passports and flags and anthems.
 
  • #15
Again, our modern definitions of "Nationality" are very different nowadays, what with our passports and flags and anthems.

Perhaps, those Egyptian Greeks moved to Greece when it was founded! Most of the times we are prisoners of our own prejudices and tilts. Once you called Euclid an Egyptian, you have committed a crime in some sense. It would make him an Egyptian, not a Greek or European, which coincidentally would make him one of forefathers of Egyptian Muslims, further it would make him an Asian, further a Middle Easterner. I assure you some would prosecute you for this crime. If someone lived 1000 centuries ago in India and was following some culture of Chinese origin, he would still be an Indian to me. It's not entirely about the nationality. Likewise, telling someone that Babylonia once stood where Iraq is today may disturb him. Telling some people that many of the things discovered in the West after 15th century had already been discovered in India, or Indian Subcontinent to be precise, much earlier could make them uncomfortable.

Note: I'm not an English learner, and I mostly make poor choice of words. I intend not to offend anyone but it's my humble and personal opinion(s). Please take them lightly.
 
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  • #16
jackson6612 said:
Note: I'm not an English learner, and I mostly make poor choice of words.

:bugeye:
I'm quite picky about misuse of language, and it never occurred to me that you weren't a natural Anglophone. Your fluency in English exceeds that of most who were born into it.
 
  • #17
Your fluency in English exceeds that of most who were born into it.

Thank you, Danger. It's one of the best complements I have received so for for my struggle to learn, master English. Once again, thanks for the encouraging words.
 
  • #18
jackson6612 said:
Once you called Euclid an Egyptian, you have committed a crime in some sense. It would make him an Egyptian, not a Greek or European, which coincidentally would make him one of forefathers of Egyptian Muslims, further it would make him an Asian, further a Middle Easterner.
No one knows where Euclid was born, we can only guess at a year, nothing is actually known, so your claim that he was Egyptian is without basis (see link). He lived under the reign of Ptolemy I. Ptolemy was Macedonian, he was the first Ptolemy to rule Egypt. (Cleopatra was a Ptolemy)

Euclid - http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Biographies/Euclid.html

Ptolemy - http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pe-Pu/Ptolemy-I.html

I don't know where you are getting your information. You should have provided links to your sources with your posts, starting with your first post, unfortunately people had already responded before I got here.

Of course there will often be differing views where little is known, in these cases, we need to seek the most reputable sources. (now watch Arildno say I'm wrong :tongue:)
 
  • #19
Hi Evo

Okay, we couldn't be so sure about his birth but it is still noted in many information portals that he was a resident of Alexandria which happens to be in Egypt.

My question is not particularly focussed on Euclid.

By the way, the same source you linked to claims Egypt as his birth place at the following page:
http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/BirthplaceMaps/Countries/Egypt.html [Broken]
 
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  • #20
jackson6612 said:
By the way, the same source you linked to claims Egypt as his birth place at the following page:
http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/BirthplaceMaps/Countries/Egypt.html [Broken]
And the other source says Greece. He lived in Alexandria, that we are pretty sure of. But his birth is unknown, there are no records.

That whay I say "per person", we need to look for the most reliable sources. On Euclid, I go with the ones that admit it's anyone's guess.
 
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  • #21
He lived in Alexandria, that we are pretty sure of. But his birth is unknown, there are no records.

What would you make of it? At least you and me both agree that he lived and worked in Alexandria. We know about that important phase which he is known for. Alexandria is still there in all its glory and it's not some foreign territory of Egypt rather a contiguous part. He was more Egypt than anything else.
 
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  • #22
jackson6612 said:
What would you make of it? At least you and me both agree that he lived and worked in Alexandria. We know about that important phase which he is known for. Alexandria is still there in all its glory and it's not some foreign territory of Egypt rather a contiguous part. He was more Egypt than anything else.
I lived in Japan for 9 years. Was I Japanese at that time?
 
  • #23
jackson6612 said:
What would you make of it? At least you and me both agree that he lived and worked in Alexandria. We know about that important phase which he is known for. Alexandria is still there in all its glory and it's not some foreign territory of Egypt rather a contiguous part. He is more Egypt than anything else.
But he was considered to belong to the Greek school of mathematics, and to have studied in Greece.

Unknown background

Almost nothing is known of Euclid personally. It is not even known for certain whether he was really a creative mathematician or was simply good at collecting and editing the work of others. Most of the information about Euclid comes from Proclus (411–485 C. E.), a fifth-century Greek scholar. Some believed Euclid was the son of a Greek man who was born in Tyre and lived in Damascus. His mathematical education may have been obtained from students of Plato (c. 427 B.C.E. –347 B.C.E. ) in Athens, Greece, since most of the earlier mathematicians upon whose work the Elements is based had studied and taught there.

http://www.notablebiographies.com/Du-Fi/Euclid.html#ixzz0uzvLfeX0
 
  • #24
I lived in Japan for 9 years. Was I Japanese at that time?
Jimmy, at least you know where you were born and many other details. When it comes to Euclid a very little is known about where he was born except that he worked and lived in Alexandria. Making a claim that he was more Egypt than a Greek is more valid then.
 
  • #25
jackson6612 said:
Jimmy, at least you know where you were born and many other details. When it comes to Euclid a very little is known about where he was born except that he worked and lived in Alexandria. Making a claim that he was more Egypt than a Greek is more valid then.
No more valid than if you claim he was Japanese. Since when does "I don't know" become "Egyptian"?
 
  • #26
jackson6612 said:
Jimmy, at least you know where you were born and many other details. When it comes to Euclid a very little is known about where he was born except that he worked and lived in Alexandria. Making a claim that he was more Egypt than a Greek is more valid then.
He also spent time studying, then teaching in Athens, Greece first. Making him Greek by the time he got to Alexandria?
 
  • #27
Jimmy Snyder said:
No more valid than if you claim he was Japanese.

Euclid-san?
 
  • #28
Vanadium 50 said:
Euclid-san?
Here's looking at Euclid.
 
  • #29
I'm not an Egyptian and have nothing to do with Egypt. But things should be placed where they rightfully belong. Perhaps, the next thing I'm gong to hear is that many of the masons and engineers who built the pyramids were Romans, or why not English for that matter!

As for Euclid, I would settle for 'Egypt/Greek'. Attributing the genius of Euclid completely to Greek is unfair. Is there any agreement on this?
 
  • #30
Jimmy Snyder said:
Here's looking at Euclid.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
  • #31
Evo said:
No one knows where Euclid was born, we can only guess at a year, nothing is actually known, so your claim that he was Egyptian is without basis (see link). He lived under the reign of Ptolemy I. Ptolemy was Macedonian, he was the first Ptolemy to rule Egypt.

Well, ****... I always thought that he was from Idaho, but apparently I was mistaken.

Jimmy, I have my own approach to your "Japanese" question, but it probably isn't one that is recognized by governments. By my standards, if you were just living there you were a resident alien, landed immigrant, or whatever the local terminology defines it as, but were still a citizen of your original nation. Had you obtained citizenship in Japan, you would have been Japanese (or of dual nationality if you retained the original). That brings up two things that have always puzzled me. One is that by English law one is incapable of losing citizenship (or was, when this first came to my attention; it might be different now). By US law, conversely, one seeking to become a Yank legally has to relinquish any previous citizenship. So how the hell is it that there are so many Brits in the States? England says "you're still English whether or not you like it" and Washington say's "no you aren't". What the hell... are they going to start another war over it?
The other thing that puzzles me is Jews. One of my newest and best PF friends is Jewish, and so is the girlfriend of my pool teammate, and a few friends from my past, but I haven't asked any of them about it. How is the designation "Jew" derived? Do you go by what day of the week they treat as Sabbath, the size of their noses, where they live...? I always took it to be someone who embraced Judaism as their religion, regardless of background (such as Sammy Davis Jr.), but I've had others disagree.
I don't even know whether or not I should post this in case it implies any sort of racism that doesn't exist. My compromise is that I am posting it, and then reporting the post so a Mentor can decide upon whether or not it is acceptable.
 
  • #32
jackson6612 said:
As for Euclid, I would settle for 'Egypt/Greek'. Attributing the genius of Euclid completely to Greek is unfair. Is there any agreement on this?
Most of the theorems appearing in the Elements were not discovered by Euclid himself, but were the work of earlier Greek mathematicians such as Pythagoras (and his school), Hippocrates of Chios, Theaetetus of Athens, and Eudoxus of Cnidos. However, Euclid is generally credited with arranging these theorems in a logical manner, so as to demonstrate (admittedly, not always with the rigour demanded by modern mathematics) that they necessarily follow from five simple axioms. Euclid is also credited with devising a number of particularly ingenious proofs of previously discovered theorems: e.g., Theorem 48 in Book 1.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid.html [Broken]
 
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  • #33
Danger said:
Jimmy, I have my own approach to your "Japanese" question, but it probably isn't one that is recognized by governments.
My wife is Chinese, but she got US citizenship after we married. I often joke that she is no longer Chinese, but it doesn't get the big yuks.

I am Jewish myself. I don't take offense at your questions, but I will point out to you that many German Jews went to the gas chambers muttering that they were German first and Jewish second. I am American first for all the good it may do me. As for who is a Jew, there are many opinions. For the most part it doesn't matter. If you show up for synagogue service some Saturday morning you may be asked if you are Jewish and if you answer yes, be offered an opportunity to say a blessing over a portion of the Torah reading. No one will check your credentials nor are there any be be had. I have none other than my verbal claim to be Jewish. I don't know what proofs the State of Israel requires for a claim to citizenship based on right of return. I can't prove my Jewishness by any means of which I am aware and yet am as Jewish as anyone can get.
 
  • #34
Evo said:
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid.html [Broken]

Hi Evo

Now you would deprive Euclid of his greatness, genius and claim all the work he is known for to earlier Greeks. It is a naive argument and I hear it from time to time. When they talk about the Arabs, they say they, the Arabs, didn't do anything new they merely catalogued the already discovered knowledge of the Greeks. Well, we all use the works of earlier giants, make our own additions, improve those works, expand the field of knowledge. Many of the things we struggle to understand even to this day are reminiscent of works of many ancient cultures. There are many Indian and Chinese mathematicians and scientists of the earlier centuries which they always try to ignore. They start in the West, I mean Greece, and end in the West. No offense should be taken.

I see you don't agree on the 'Egyptian/Greek' label. I can smell it.
 
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  • #35
jackson6612 said:
Hi Evo

Now you would deprive Euclid of his greatness, genius and claim all the work he is known for to earlier Greeks. It is a naive argument and I hear it from time to time. When they talk about the Arabs, they say they, the Arabs, didn't do anything new they merely catalogued the already discovered knowledge of the Greeks. Well, we all use the works of earlier giants, make our own additions, improve those works, expand the field of knowledge. Many of the things we struggle to understand even to this day are reminiscent of works of many ancient cultures. There are many Indian and Chinese mathematicians and scientists of the earlier centuries which they always try to ignore. They start in the West, I mean Greece, and end in the West. No offense should be taken.

I see you don't agree on the 'Egyptian/Greek' label. I can smell it.
Just stating what is known. You are the one that is trying to label people for some reason.
 
<h2>What does it mean when someone is listed as "Greek"?</h2><p>When someone is listed as "Greek", it typically means that they have Greek ancestry or heritage. This can include individuals who were born in Greece, have Greek parents or grandparents, or have a cultural connection to Greece.</p><h2>Why would someone be listed as "Greek" if they aren't really Greek?</h2><p>There are a few possible reasons for this. One reason could be that the person has some Greek ancestry, but it is not their primary or only ethnicity. Another reason could be that the person identifies with Greek culture or has adopted Greek traditions, even if they do not have Greek ancestry.</p><h2>Is it offensive to list someone as "Greek" if they aren't really Greek?</h2><p>It depends on the context and the individual. Some people may be offended if they are listed as "Greek" without having any connection to Greece or Greek culture. It is always best to ask someone how they would like to be identified before labeling them as a certain ethnicity.</p><h2>Why is it important to accurately list someone's ethnicity?</h2><p>Accurately listing someone's ethnicity is important because it acknowledges and respects their cultural background and identity. It also allows for a better understanding and representation of diversity within a group or community.</p><h2>How can we avoid mislabeling someone's ethnicity?</h2><p>The best way to avoid mislabeling someone's ethnicity is to ask them how they identify and respect their preference. It is also important to educate oneself on different ethnicities and cultures to better understand and recognize diversity.</p>

What does it mean when someone is listed as "Greek"?

When someone is listed as "Greek", it typically means that they have Greek ancestry or heritage. This can include individuals who were born in Greece, have Greek parents or grandparents, or have a cultural connection to Greece.

Why would someone be listed as "Greek" if they aren't really Greek?

There are a few possible reasons for this. One reason could be that the person has some Greek ancestry, but it is not their primary or only ethnicity. Another reason could be that the person identifies with Greek culture or has adopted Greek traditions, even if they do not have Greek ancestry.

Is it offensive to list someone as "Greek" if they aren't really Greek?

It depends on the context and the individual. Some people may be offended if they are listed as "Greek" without having any connection to Greece or Greek culture. It is always best to ask someone how they would like to be identified before labeling them as a certain ethnicity.

Why is it important to accurately list someone's ethnicity?

Accurately listing someone's ethnicity is important because it acknowledges and respects their cultural background and identity. It also allows for a better understanding and representation of diversity within a group or community.

How can we avoid mislabeling someone's ethnicity?

The best way to avoid mislabeling someone's ethnicity is to ask them how they identify and respect their preference. It is also important to educate oneself on different ethnicities and cultures to better understand and recognize diversity.

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