Is It Too Late to Pursue Genius in Math and Science?

[mathgenius]

Hello,

I left school legally at the age of 16 and started working for an uncle at his construction company. My plans were to learn everything I could about building homes, start my own company, and become rich. But that was then. I am almost 30 now and will be quiting construction very soon.

In school, I remember being very interested in math and science. I was good at it. But that was in elementary school and a couple of years of high school.

My dream is to spend my life educating myself in those two fields, finding which areas interest me the most, and advancing them, teaching and getting published.

Thoughts? Comments? Advice? Thanks!

 

[micromass]

What you are trying to do is certainly possible. There are quite some people who start with science at their thirties.

However, it is also quite dangerous what you want to do. There is essentially nothing that guarantees that you will be successful. First of all, there is no guarantee that you will even like math and science. You said you did some science in high school and you liked it. But science in math are very different in university! They look very little like the science you encounter in high school. Many people I knew quit with mathematics and physics because they did not like it, even though they enjoyed it in college. Before paying for an expensive college, you should really try to work through a college physics or math text. Or you might want to go to a community college and take some courses.

But even then, there is no guarantee that you will be good at physics or mathematics. You should really consider the possibility that you will not obtain good grades and that you won't get into a good grad school. In that case, you end up with a bachelor in physics, which is not immediately a very useful degree. You will have quit your well-paying job and you will have obtained a useless degree and you will have wasted much money and time. This is a risk you will have to take. And it's a very real risk. There are many people who don't get into grad school. And even less people who get to be a professor.

You also got to think about how long the path will be. A bachelor in physics is about 4 years. Then you go to grad school, which might take 6 years. And that's only for your PhD. So you'll be at least 40 once you'll have a PhD in physics (and with quite a large debt as well). Then you will have to get some post-doc jobs, which will take up quite some years as well.

I'm not discouraging you from following your dream. But I'm trying to make things more realistic for you. If you decide to pursue your dreams, then good luck. But you should only pursue it once you know all the risks involved.

 

[hddd123456789]

I'm not exactly in the same position as you, though I can sort of relate. The cliche recommendation is to figure out what you actually want to do, is it teaching (and at what level?), research, coming up with some novel and interesting maths? Because these of course all lie at vastly different levels as far as time/energy/difficulty goes. But I also know that when starting out, such a recommendation is rarely helpful, since you don't know enough to even know what you like, or rather know what you will be able to invest yourself in for years if not decades to come. So really the only way to start IMHO is to just start reading about topics in math that interest you in your spare time. One thing will lead you to the other, and pretty soon you'll find some things that you might seriously like to master. Or on the other hand, you might find that a career in mathematics might not be for you, though there's nothing right or wrong about either outcomes.

The only sensible path I can see is to work at my paying job and study math on my spare time. But then, I'm not studying to get a job related to math.

Hope the share helps!

 

[HeLiXe]

Hello,

I left school legally at the age of 16 and started working for an uncle at his construction company. My plans were to learn everything I could about building homes, start my own company, and become rich. But that was then. I am almost 30 now and will be quiting construction very soon.

In school, I remember being very interested in math and science. I was good at it. But that was in elementary school and a couple of years of high school.

My dream is to spend my life educating myself in those two fields, finding which areas interest me the most, and advancing them, teaching and getting published.

Thoughts? Comments? Advice? Thanks!

I say go for it! GED Prep > GED > college etc. There are many schools that allow you to take the majority of your prereqs online, so you can learn conveniently and also figure out what area of science you wish to concentrate in. Online classes also have that good "independent-study feel" as you can go through the material at your leisure (with the appropriate deadlines in mind of course) and are not in the typical classroom setting.

 

[chiro]

Hey mathgenius and welcome to the forums.

Don't be intimidated by those younger and more experienced in the field than you are right now: just chip away at it for a while with the right attitude and you will most likely surprise yourself.

 

[horses910]

Believe me when I tell you that you have time. Sometimes in one's life, you have to live it before you realize what it is you want to do. However, take carefully planned steps and write out realistic goals...how will you manage while going back to school and such. Good luck!

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

In that case, you end up with a bachelor in physics, which is not immediately a very useful degree.

I'm unsure if I agree with this, given that unemployment statistics for physics majors, median wages, and employment sectors are good (AIP states that roughly 66% of physics majors end up in engineering, software development, or some other kind of IT).

Is this misleading?

 

[micromass]

I'm unsure if I agree with this, given that unemployment statistics for physics majors, median wages, and employment sectors are good (AIP states that roughly 66% of physics majors end up in engineering, software development, or some other kind of IT).

Is this misleading?

We had a discussion about this here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=657250

 

[Bobbo Snap]

It's definitely doable. I dropped out of high school at 15 and spent about 12 years between the military and working construction. I'm now in my senior year of a math/physics double major.

I'll warn you that, having dropped out of high school, you will likely need remedial math courses before you're at what most programs consider "entry-level". Even if you were good at math you probably haven't had enough of it and what you did know is surely quite rusty. If you're not ready for calc I, you're not prepared for a physics or math degree. That's OK, that was my situation, all it means is that it will probably take 5 years instead of 4 to complete your bachelors.

Mathematics and physics are hard degrees even without the additional struggles that come with being an non-traditional student but if it's what you really want then go for it. It can be done.

 

[mathgenius]

Thank you for the replies.

Aren't there shortcuts to getting all these credentials (degrees, doctorates, etc)?

I've been thinking about buying several high quality books on physics and mathematics and just studying 'til I've learned it all. Studying day and night until every thought and every dream is about those two subjects. Hopefully later I'll be able to come up with my own quality work that'll get me recognized.

That's the dream right there.

 

[micromass]

Aren't there shortcuts to getting all these credentials (degrees, doctorates, etc)?

I'm afraid not The system is how it is. I don't think there are significant shortcuts.

I've been thinking about buying several high quality books on physics and mathematics and just studying 'til I've learned it all. Studying day and night until every thought and every dream is about those two subjects. Hopefully later I'll be able to come up with my own quality work that'll get me recognized.

Not a good idea. Let me explain why. Self-studying is certainly doable. But it is very easy to fool yourself. You might think you know something while you actually don't. This happens more easily than you think! Self-study can only work if you already have experience with the topic and if you already know the pitfalls. And even then it is dangerous. To be able to communicate with other people is really a must. Guidance from a professor is also very necessary.

Certainly when you're going to do your own research. If you don't have a professional to guide you, then you're screwed. You need to know where you can do something new, and what has been done already. A professional can tell you these things. You will likely not know when you're a beginner.

To start in science, there is little else to do then to go the conventional route. That is: bachelor => PhD => post-doc. It really is the best way!

 

[mitzip]

Not a good idea. Let me explain why. Self-studying is certainly doable. But it is very easy to fool yourself. You might think you know something while you actually don't. This happens more easily than you think! Self-study can only work if you already have experience with the topic and if you already know the pitfalls. And even then it is dangerous. To be able to communicate with other people is really a must. Guidance from a professor is also very necessary.

Can you give an example of this? Are you speaking from experience?

 

[Lavabug]

I did self-study for two years when I attended a distance-learning university. Speaking now as a physics senior at a "flesh & bone" university, it was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. It requires an amount of discipline that even the most dedicated people will struggle to put up with. It also takes longer to complete a degree this way, which could put a real test on your patience and finances should you choose to attend a distance university. You will not learn anywhere near as fast or efficiently as you would by getting regular lectures to guide your learning, frequent drills to test your knowledge, and the ability to pose questions to profs that you can't find answers to in a textbook. A 5 minute conversation with a good prof can save you 2 days of searching through half a dozen textbooks looking for an answer to a simple question in my experience.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

The take away from these comments should be that self study is a useful supplement to professional study at a university. Believe me, I took Griffith's quantum mechanics and tried to learn it all before my first course in QM; I barely got through a tenth of the material we covered in class! However, I did learn useful things. On one of the two midterms, I had more or less studied a linear algebra problem in Shankar's over the summer which appeared on the test, and nobody else really understood! So really the more time you put in, the better you'll get.

 

[ModusPwnd]

I'm unsure if I agree with this, given that unemployment statistics for physics majors, median wages, and employment sectors are good (AIP states that roughly 66% of physics majors end up in engineering, software development, or some other kind of IT).

Is this misleading?

You should re-check those stats, I don't think that is right. I just pulled up the AIP report to make sure.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Thank you for the replies.

Aren't there shortcuts to getting all these credentials (degrees, doctorates, etc)?

I've been thinking about buying several high quality books on physics and mathematics and just studying 'til I've learned it all. Studying day and night until every thought and every dream is about those two subjects. Hopefully later I'll be able to come up with my own quality work that'll get me recognized.

That's the dream right there.

Not going to happen. It could take you many generations to come up with quality work going that route. Why avoid the traditional route? It would be much easier with all the expertise, infrastructure and intensity of studying under professors and with peers. Do that and you could be putting out your own quality work in less than one generation.

I would advise to start taking beginning math classes and other requirements at community college in anticipation of transferring for an engineering degree. If you want to do science you are looking at over 10 years of education, more like 15 counting post docs and then you start competing for jobs that most PhDs will never get.

(Note that the grass is always greener... I wish I had done what you did when young and actually worked and got marketable skills rather than wasting my time studying math and science. Math and science are fun, but can be hard to market.)

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

Aah, I double checked. It looks like 53% of physics bachelors work in the private sector, and 74% of those work in STEM fields, so it looks like 40% of physics bachelors work in STEM.

Which still means that a little less than half of physics majors work in STEM which I think is actually quite decent, given that I know nothing about the work environment for the remaining 60%

 

[ModusPwnd]

40% of full time employed bachelors, depending on what qualifies as "STEM". Those statistics don't count the unemployed, the part time employed and those who do the same thing they did before or during college.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

From the AIP,

In spite of having graduated during a recession,
there is very little unemployment among physics
bachelors five to eight years later. Among those
who did not receive any additional degrees and are
not primarily students, 96% are currently employed.
The majority of the unemployed are not looking for
work, and most of these are stay at home mothers.
Only two physics bachelor’s with no additional
degrees were unemployed and looking at the time of
the survey.

Do you dispute this? Is it misleading? So the number is a little less than 40% working in STEM fields, since there appears to be roughly 4% unemployment amongst physics bachelors.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Three groups of workforce bound physics bachelor’s degree recipients are
not included in this report: unemployed graduates (about 5% of new
bachelor’s), graduates who continue the jobs that they held while they
were in school (7% of employed bachelor’s), and graduates who are only
employed part-time (roughly one-fifth of employed bachelor’s).

5% unemployed according to this quote, better than the national average for sure. 27% of the employed are not included in the statistics for some reason. That brings it down to under 30% of recent BS in STEM, where STEM is everything ranging from 'hard core' research to 'have you tried rebooting it' IT. (Probably some of that 27% are doing IT though...)

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

How significantly worse than say, electrical engineering is this?

 

[ModusPwnd]

I don't know. My thoughts are that it is significantly worse.

When I applied to tech type jobs nearly all required or requested EE, CS or Chem. The only time physics was mentioned was with a PhD next to it and even that was rare.

Engineers have no qualms about making their programs a mix between a trade and an academic discipline so they clearly have employement advantage. But I think that is probably ok. We don't need physics to be marketable, we have engineering if you want a mix between a trade and an academic subject. If you want just the academic subject then do physics. Most dont, most want the trade skills too so most will do engineering.

 

[Sankaku]

Perhaps a discussion of science employment statistics would be better in a different thread?

Back on-topic:

I would advise to start taking beginning math classes and other requirements at community college... (snip)

This is good general advice.

As others have said, self studying is a good supplement, but you need to get some organized classes under your belt to know what you are getting into. A community college (or some distance courses, if you are extremely disciplined) will give you a more realistic idea of what lies ahead. Community college credit can normally be transferred if you apply later to university, and they are (usually) more accommodating of non-traditional students.

Age is no real barrier to doing well in math/science classes, but the time commitment is substantial and as someone who is not 17 any longer, you do need to think about money, family and career. Starting out part-time can allow you to get started without completely abandoning your present income.

 

[mathgenius]

Why avoid the traditional route?

I might as well tell you why. I developed a brain disease (schizophrenia) a few years ago and it has become quite difficult for me to be around people. That's why I quit construction work and now have thoughts about becoming a recluse genius.

I don't think I can be around people anymore. I tried that route and it didn't work. If you must know, it made my symptoms, like voices and visual hallucinations, worse. So, it's either studying on my own or nothing at all.

I have to make this work somehow. Video lectures? Good books that explain things well? Emailing a professor? What else?

 

[HeLiXe]

Why avoid the traditional route?

I might as well tell you why. I developed a brain disease (schizophrenia) a few years ago and it has become quite difficult for me to be around people. That's why I quit construction work and now have thoughts about becoming a recluse genius.

I don't think I can be around people anymore. I tried that route and it didn't work. If you must know, it made my symptoms, like voices and visual hallucinations, worse. So, it's either studying on my own or nothing at all.

I have to make this work somehow. Video lectures? Good books that explain things well? Emailing a professor? What else?

I'm only a junior in college, but I have found the the application aspect of physics, i.e. the labs, are a very important learning point. I have heard of some colleges that offer physics degrees online...I'm not sure if they have virtual labs or something, but I think missing out on labs would be a major loss for your inner genius. I think it's also difficult to become a recluse genius without some form of formal training/education. Is there anything that can help your condition, like therapy or meditation? Maybe you and your doctor should try to find something that will help you to tolerate being around people... something that you agree with.

In any event you can still learn a lot from self study, but you have a lot to study, and I also agree with micromass that sometimes you can think you understand something but are misleaded. It is good to have guidance and a knowledgeable person/people to check with.

 

[Lavabug]

Well I don't know anything about your condition, but maybe doing something to help that would be a good idea, before doing anything like what you're planning.

Regardless of your health, your plan IMO sounds overly ambitious and I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Take smaller bites and make sure you can chew them before trying to swallow the whole steak (or salad, if you're vegetarian).

Don't get me wrong, you can reach BSc level physics knowledge and beyond that via self-study, I've seen it done by people who attended distance universities (which I formerly attended), but it's a far longer and highly inefficient path (think of taking at least 8 years to complete just the BSc if you're holding a job), not to mention that it can really potentially put you off of studying altogether if you try to take on too much at once.

At your stage, as a first step I'd do whatever was necessary to make sure you finish your HS education and get your high school level math up to a respectable level. That means your trig/geometry, calculus, and basics of matrices need to be rock solid

 

[hddd123456789]

Why avoid the traditional route?

I might as well tell you why. I developed a brain disease (schizophrenia) a few years ago and it has become quite difficult for me to be around people. That's why I quit construction work and now have thoughts about becoming a recluse genius...

Though I've never been diagnosed professionally, I was a psych major in college (go figure ) and if that stands for anything, I had pretty much all the symptoms of negative schizophrenia which developed during my college years. Like you, I had great difficulty with social skills to say the least, and while I had several friends in high school, I went through four+ years of university with literally not knowing the name of one student or professor there, never mind making new friends. I had wild and grandiose fantasies then, and while I don't mean mean to equate your situation with mine those years back, I do at least mean to be helpful in asking you to hear me out.

Until you focus on beating this beast that is schizophrenia, then you should know as well as I do, that committing one's self to any long-term plans while battling with this condition is basically not possible. I'd long lost count of how many times I tried and failed to commit myself to anything at all while I was dealing with it. So IMHO, you should seriously consider first dealing with schizophrenia, and become accustomed to being around people to some reasonable extent before pursuing a life changing goal such as this.

If it helps, I haven't given up on my goals, but with my schizophrenic tendencies largely side-lined, I can meet my goals in terms of years of consistent effort, rather than days or weeks of sporadic/manic effort like I used to before.

 

[rhythm42]

Gattaca.

Great movie from 1997, but it expresses your situation perfectly if it really is your dream.

 

[mathgenius]

Once again, thank you for the replies. You make me want to take a course or two at a college near me, but I'm not ready for that just yet. Maybe in the summer. Anyway, since we're on this topic, I have a few things on my mind.

Back when I was in school, I had eight courses to take per year (no semesters) and I remember how easy it was. I imagine higher education to be the same. You don't really need all that repetition and to spend countless hours in a classroom listening to someone talk about things you already understand. You can learn it on your own quicker than that, it seems, and save yourself a lot of time for studying things which aren't understood by anyone.

For instance, high school takes four years, but a GED is only a test. Do I really need to study for 4 years to be capable of getting a GED? I doubt it.

I'd like to discover new knowledge and revolutionalize a field of study. That would be my ultimate dream. And it makes me wonder if I really need to start at the bottom and to learn everything that's already been discovered, first. Maybe it takes some ignorance to make new discoveries? Hmmm.

Gattaca is a great movie. I also liked Good Will Hunting.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

That's the wrong attitude; revolutionary discoveries are accidents of one kind or another. It's an ego dream.

I just don't think it's wise for somebody to be motivated by the desire to win prizes and be thought of as a genius. It's superficial stuff.

 

[0xDEADBEEF]

Maybe I am completely off track here, but if I remember correctly schizophrenia is characterized by a different perception of the world from what is actually real, i.e. delusions. I have met people who were on the edge of paranoia in physics research, and they still did ok, but I imagine that this is also how crackpots are born. Of these there are regular visitors to our institute and only in their head it all makes sense what they are saying... Maybe it would be better to go into mathematics, where it might be more easy to prevent fooling oneself by making the proofs rigorous. I just have a weird feeling encouraging a schizophrenic to do theoretical science research as a recluse.

 

[hddd123456789]

Maybe I am completely off track here, but if I remember correctly schizophrenia is characterized by a different perception of the world from what is actually real, i.e. delusions. I have met people who were on the edge of paranoia in physics research, and they still did ok, but I imagine that this is also how crackpots are born. Of these there are regular visitors to our institute and only in their head it all makes sense what they are saying... Maybe it would be better to go into mathematics, where it might be more easy to prevent fooling oneself by making the proofs rigorous. I just have a weird feeling encouraging a schizophrenic to do theoretical science research as a recluse.

The general advice is to not glamorize schizophrenia like they do in the movies. Anyway, delusions are part of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia, and social difficulties (to say the least) are part of the negative symptoms.

 

[billblack]

I completed 2 BS degrees with all of my upper-level classes online. It is much more difficult than taking the same class in a face-2-face setting, but it can be done.
I would suggest that you try to deal with your mental health issues rather than merely retreating into yourself. If your goal is to further your field of study, you will still have to communicate your findings to someone as well as submitting your work for some kind of peer review. You can make your mental health a long term project for research and experimentation, but merely deciding that you are schizophrenic is not a diagnosis, it's a guess. Get a diagnosis by a professional and then determine your strategy.
Advice ends-
Self-education and other resources:
http://www.openculture.com/freeonlinecourses
http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
http://www.udacity.com/
https://www.coursera.org/

 

[mathgenius]

This isn't about my schizophrenia. I just gave a reason as to why I can't be around people, so please don't use it against me. I've suffered with this illness for 6 years, 4 of which have been medicated. I'm now 26, not on medication and re-evaluating my life. It's really sad, because just a few years ago I was normal and life was great. From what I understand I'll probably have schizophrenia for the rest of my life, but at least if I become a genius and make some breakthroughs, people will respect me for that. Stephen Hawking comes to mind, for example, so things like this are possible, even though they may not seem very likely at first. Just give me the bennefit of the doubt, please.

I want to dedicate my life to science and math. I mean, I won't jusy be your typical student who goes to school for a couple of hours to listen to the teacher, then come home and do homework for an hour or two, and then spend the rest of the day having a life and going out with friends. My life as I knew it is over. I will sleep for 8 hours a night, leaving 14 hours to devote toward science and math. Some amazing things are bound to happen with so much effort being invested into such a pursuit.

 

[mathgenius]

Thank you for the links, Bill. Will definitely take a look at those.