In Response to the War Crimes caught on video Thread

[Mattius_]

You know, Adam posted a video that showed Americans shooting a wounded iraqi next to his gun while cheering... Well I saw it again on CNN late last night but I got quite a different interpretation. The feature was about how many young soldiers have to live with killing, and how it affects them down the road.

The same interview with the sargent who was quoted in saying "hell yea, let's go do it again" was also shown, but it also opened up another part of the same interview in which he was talking about his regrets afterwards. Talking about how he knew that the guy had probably had a wife and kids and talking about how it has been haunting him. He stated that the cheer was something of adrenaline, and that he was ashamed of it.

It also showed several ww2 vets talking about the exhiliration of killing, and the post-mordam afterwards.

So, I just think it is kind of funny how someone can take a short excerpt of an interview and use it for its exact opposite purpose. I feel kinda sheepish for falling into it.

True, it was an atrocious act, but the interview afterwards which portrayed the sargent as being an ignorant barbarian was completely wrong.

 

[Janitor]

I well remember pictures taken 9-11-2001 of Palestinians cheering in the street over the loss of thousands of American lives.

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

In war, there will always be war crimes. That's just the way it is. Historically the U.S. has a pretty good record compared to a lot of nations, but there will always be some war crimes no matter how hard we try to prevent them.

Sometimes war is neccessary. It's too bad that it is, but it's just a fact of life. Most of human history is the story of preparation for war, war, and the aftermath of war. Humans just love to kill each other. Too bad.

We are currently in a world war, there will be much more death and destruction before it is over. Get used to it, you're stuck with it, just the same as I am, whether you like it or not. Just do your duty, and in the long run we'll prevail.

God bless America,
-Mike

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

I well remember pictures taken 9-11-2001 of Palestinians cheering in the street over the loss of thousands of American lives.

Hang in there Janitor. Every dog has his day. If these people had any clue, they would be investing their time more wisely. Wait 'till you see round 4!
-Mike

 

[Loren Booda]

Isn't war itself a crime, or does it fall outside of legalism? Is such "justice" fated to perpetuate injustice?

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Isn't war itself a crime, or does it fall outside of legalism? Is such "justice" fated to perpetuate injustice?

I don't know. But I do know this; war is real, and at any given time there are several wars raging all over the world. It would be nice if this were not so, but it is. Don't look for a change anytime soon. Humans truly do love to kill each other; next to sex, it seems to be our favorite thing to do.

If your are a pacifist, that's fine by me. It certainly doesn't hurt anything, it just makes you irrelevant. Pacifism is a nice concept, but it has no practical application on this planet.
-Mike

 

[member 5645]

You know, Adam posted a video that showed Americans shooting a wounded iraqi next to his gun while cheering... Well I saw it again on CNN late last night but I got quite a different interpretation. The feature was about how many young soldiers have to live with killing, and how it affects them down the road.

The same interview with the sargent who was quoted in saying "hell yea, let's go do it again" was also shown, but it also opened up another part of the same interview in which he was talking about his regrets afterwards. Talking about how he knew that the guy had probably had a wife and kids and talking about how it has been haunting him. He stated that the cheer was something of adrenaline, and that he was ashamed of it.

It also showed several ww2 vets talking about the exhiliration of killing, and the post-mordam afterwards.

So, I just think it is kind of funny how someone can take a short excerpt of an interview and use it for its exact opposite purpose. I feel kinda sheepish for falling into it.

True, it was an atrocious act, but the interview afterwards which portrayed the sargent as being an ignorant barbarian was completely wrong.

Two things I noticed when Adam posted that garbage:

1>It was horribly clipped
2> It was a CNN video posted on a site that says "news you won't find on CNN"

Thanks for the update on what really was edited.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I knew a Marine who re-upped just so that he could fight in Gulf I. He openly admitted that this was not because of duty; it was that he wanted to use all that he had learned. He wanted to go and kick a$$!

It always makes me a little ill at heart to see commercials selling kids on military service...as if it were like any other career option, or as if learning to kill will enhance a person's life. I think pacifism does have a place; without it the results are absolutely inevitable.

There is or was at least a strange little fact that I heard cited along the way somewhere. I assume that at least it is mostly true; I am pretty sure it was when I heard it. The statement was that no place that has a McDonalds ever sees military warfare on its own streets. The author was suggesting that the desire for war at home is inversely proportional to wealth. Maybe when everyone is wealthy enough there won't be any place to fight.

Help end war. Please contribute to a foreign McDonald's franchise today. :tongue:

 

[schwarzchildradius]

Isn't war itself a crime, or does it fall outside of legalism? Is such "justice" fated to perpetuate injustice?

Seems like most attempts to make war making nations adhere to a legal code have been unsuccessful. Hitler blatantly defied the League of Nations, as Bush defied several veto-holding members of the UN. In theory the Geneva convention prevents war crimes, but has been thrown out the window in Guantanamo. In the end, two or more parties must agree on a legal code and be willing to respect it; when one side decides the only law it will obey is the Law of the Jungle, the law is destroyed for all, and no party can expect the law to be respected.

 

[Adam]

True, it was an atrocious act, but the interview afterwards which portrayed the sargent as being an ignorant barbarian was completely wrong.

The man is still dead. It remains an atrocious act. The shooter is still a barbarian. Who the fudge cares if he felt bad about it much later? The scumbag still did it.

 

[member 5645]

The man is still dead. It remains an atrocious act. The shooter is still a barbarian. Who the fudge cares if he felt bad about it much later? The scumbag still did it.

If you mean that all people who kill others are barbaric scumbags, then so be it - you're opinion, whatever.

If you mean that he's a barbaric scumbag because of the context of the situation that YOU saw, then that's completely different - you haven't even seen the whole unclipped version, and I have seen nothing posted that explains the scenario that lead up to the event. It's quite assumptive in this case to call the guy names when so uneducated on the events surrounding the scenario

 

[russ_watters]

The statement was that no place that has a McDonalds ever sees military warfare on its own streets. The author was suggesting that the desire for war at home is inversely proportional to wealth. Maybe when everyone is wealthy enough there won't be any place to fight.

Help end war. Please contribute to a foreign McDonald's franchise today. :tongue:

I definitely subscribe to that theory. I don't see it as any coincidence that the major combatants of WWII are all living in peace with each other 50 years later - (with the exception of Russia) they are the richest nations in the world.

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

you haven't even seen the whole unclipped version, and I have seen nothing posted that explains the scenario that lead up to the event.

Phatmonky,
You are absolutely correct. The "whole unclipped version" is an entire war.

Ivan Seeking,
My hobbies are mostly extremely dangerous ones, so I meet people who enjoy a serious rush. Many combat veterans enjoy skydiving, motorcycle racing, flying etc. Some of the combat vets that I have met over the years have admitted to enjoying their roles in war. Not most; but some. A certain percentage of people do like this sort of stuff. Some of us enjoy fighting for our lives during the emergencies that we occasionally encounter in our sports. Many people have jobs that are dangerous, and wouldn't trade them for a desk job under any circumstance.

At one time I had the pleasure of being a private in a rifle company that was attached to the 10th Air Cavalry. It was a very dangerous job, and I enjoyed it very much. We lost quite of few people, but that is the nature of the business. The vast majority of us loved our work. I know I did.

The military comercials that you see are not targeting people like you, they are targeting people like me. The military does not turn pacifists into war mongers. Pacifists are pacifists. Pacifists are useless to the military. The military has no mission for them.

I'm not saying that I think less of you because you are a pacifist. I don't think that pacifism does any harm. If you truly feel that war is wrong under any circumstances that's ok by me. You should however realize that you are part of a very small minority, and that it has always been that way, and will most certainly be that way for a long time to come.

What I don't understand is why people show how nonviolent they are by organizing demonstrations and throwing bricks at police officers. How is throwing a brick at a police officer nonviolent? Before these demonstrations take place, there is peace on the streets. During the demonstrations there is a great deal of violence, frustration and rage. After the police subdue these violent people, there is peace again. What conclusion am I supposed to draw this? What conclusion am I supposed to draw from seeing enraged pacifists? I guess you don't make any more sense to me, then I make to you. But that's ok, we're all different.

God Bless America,
Mike

 

[Adam]

God Bless America

Yay for the admixture of politics and religion...

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

(SNIP)If your are a pacifist, that's fine by me. It certainly doesn't hurt anything, it just makes you irrelevant. Pacifism is a nice concept, but it has no practical application on this planet.
-Mike (SNIP)

Hummm only one small thing, the majority of people on the planet act in a passive manner, and that is what keeps it all working, the planet, daily, so as 'practical applications' go, they are the ones making your breakfast, building the tanks, guns, and schoolbuses...lots of practical application, the desirable end result of War...Peace

But I do agree with what you say about War, as historical, and present on the Planet's face, been there for a long time, "lust for money" I hear...

 

[selfAdjoint]

Hummm only one small thing, the majority of people on the planet act in a passive manner, and that is what keeps it all working, the planet, daily, so as 'practical applications' go, they are the ones making your breakfast, building the tanks, guns, and schoolbuses...lots of practical application, the desirable end result of War...Peace

But I do agree with what you say about War, as historical, and present on the Planet's face, been there for a long time, "lust for money" I hear...

Lust for power in older men, lust for the challenge of battle in a sufficient number of young men. And now the women have caught it too. To the rich, money is a means to an end, just like people.

 

[skywise]

What I don't understand is why people show how nonviolent they are by organizing demonstrations and throwing bricks at police officers. How is throwing a brick at a police officer nonviolent? Before these demonstrations take place, there is peace on the streets. During the demonstrations there is a great deal of violence, frustration and rage. After the police subdue these violent people, there is peace again. What conclusion am I supposed to draw this? What conclusion am I supposed to draw from seeing enraged pacifists? I guess you don't make any more sense to me, then I make to you. But that's ok, we're all different.

Like you said before, only a small percentage of the population are pacifists.. While the percentage of pacifists is certainly greater at a rally, I would wager it is still far from the majority. Additonally, drawing the conclusion that everyone at these rallies is throwing bricks or engaging in some sort of destruction, while it may seem that way from corporate media reports, is far from accurate.

By far and away the most violent elements of the protests here in the US are the police. I was in Miami in November to protest the FTAA and was completely blown away by the level of repression and violence resorted to by the 'robo-cops' as they jokingly referred to themselves. After being mercilessly teargassed, peppersprayed and shot with rubber bullets indescriminately, maybe 5% of the protesters responded by building barricades and throwing back the teargas cannisters that were shot at us. Stupidly, the media reported that the protesters had come armed with teargas

BTW, while I dream of a world without war, I wouldn't necessarily call myself a pacifist.

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

...lots of practical application, the desirable end result of War...Peace

Mr. Robin Parsons,
Nice to chat with you again. I enjoy reading your posts.
you made some very good points, my compliments. I get your point, please give mine a "shot".

"The desirable end of war...peace" has been proven by history to be the result of a complete and decisive military victory by one side or the other. This is the surest recipe for peace, and always has been. Some groups negotiate and skirmish for literally thousands of years, causing a much greater loss of life, and much more destruction in the long run, than if they had prosecuted a swift and violent war over a short period of time. Also, truly violent wars that end quickly, seldom result in as much damage to non-combatants.
-Mike

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Yay for the admixture of politics and religion...

Adam,
Are you angry and frustrated with god as well?

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

I was in Miami in November to protest the FTAA and was completely blown away by the level of repression and violence resorted to by the 'robo-cops' as they jokingly referred to themselves. After being mercilessly teargassed, peppersprayed and shot with rubber bullets indescriminately..

Skywise,
My point exactly. Before the rally, the streets were peaceful. After the rally, the streets were peaceful. Who brought about a lasting peace? The police.
-Mike

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Russ, I think that's something like two in a row - that we agree on something. Like so many of my favorites, at first this notion of McDonalds sounded ridiculous but it does have a basis in good sense. Like so many things, follow the money.

Mike, I'm not a true pacifist. I think we each need to reject war out of principle and engage in such only when given no other choice. There are times that we have no choice. I think we had a choice in Iraq. Nolnetherless, under the right [wrong] circumstances I would kill like any other soldier. I also keep a loaded 12 gauge next to the bed [no kids around] and on occasion I hand it to Tsunami just make sure that she still remembers where the safety and trigger release are located. You can bet your life that she or I would use it if needed. EDIT: Actually I have used the 12 gauge in an emergency four times. Luckily in all cases the target was a skunk.

 

[skywise]

Skywise,
My point exactly. Before the rally, the streets were peaceful. After the rally, the streets were peaceful. Who brought about a lasting peace? The police.
-Mike

Actually, for a week before the rally there were riot cops on every other corner of downtown Miami in addition to roving bands of bike cops who arrested people for no other reason except that they had long hair or wore black. I don't call that peace, I call that a military state.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Mr. Robin Parsons,
Nice to chat with you again. I enjoy reading your posts.
you made some very good points, my compliments. I get your point, please give mine a "shot".

"The desirable end of war...peace" has been proven by history to be the result of a complete and decisive military victory by one side or the other. This is the surest recipe for peace, and always has been. Some groups negotiate and skirmish for literally thousands of years, causing a much greater loss of life, and much more destruction in the long run, than if they had prosecuted a swift and violent war over a short period of time. Also, truly violent wars that end quickly, seldom result in as much damage to non-combatants.
-Mike

To quote Tacitus: They made a desert and called it peace.

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Ivan,
Well said. You and I don't disagree on much. One thing that a lot of people don't take into account on the Iraq issue is how many people would have been murdered by their own government in the past year had we not gone in there. Maybe as many as were killed by the war. I believe that in the long run we will save many more lives than were lost, and eventually relieve the suffering of millions. Many of the wars that we have been in have ended the suffering of millions(for generations). This is not something to be taken lightly.
-Mike

Skywise,
My tax dollars help to pay the wages of these police officers. I expect them to maintain law and order, and restore peace in the streets. They did.
Your voices were heard, so were ours.
-Mike

SelfAdjoint,
Good quote. It underscores my point. According to the bible, when the first murder took place on this planet, we were short 9 jurors, 1/3 of the inhabitants were murderers, 1/4 of the people were murder victims, And 100% had lost a close family member as the result of a violent crime.
-Mike

 

[Adam]

Adam,
Are you angry and frustrated with god as well?

Not particularly. Are you?

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Not particularly. Are you?

No, not at all.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Lust for power in older men, lust for the challenge of battle in a sufficient number of young men. And now the women have caught it too. To the rich, money is a means to an end, just like people.

Well, it is the ones who give the permission, therein lies where what I said speaks. thereafter perception of many things can cloud the reality of motivation...

It is why I, personally, try the 'pacifistic' route, to the point of wanting to know of moral right, inasmuch as, the clarity of action is in the defensive, (not the initiation) of agression, as NOT being the starter of all of what follows, but rather the defender of what had been, and hopefully, somewhat, is preserved, in the end...Liberty order Justice...results in what is really only 'greater opportunity' for peace, that 'act' (peace) of it, is in the participants hands, thereafter, each and every one...

It is what Mr. Sewell defends for all of us, something I hope is defended (Politically) such as to be the right thing to do, not the other thing, that war, actually is...

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

I have no doubts about the roles that greed and power play in the road to war. It is sad that people choose to kill each other, rather than simply live together in harmony. But living in harmony is not enough for some people.
There will always be people like Hitler, etc. In my estimation, the way they should be dealt with is to put them out of business as quickly as possible, not to send them a bouquet of flowers and wish them a nice day, as they murder millions of their own citizens. The longer you wait to stop these people, the more blood is shed in bringing them down. It is the hesitation that causes the most suffering and the biggest loss of life.
-Mike

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Perhaps war is not the only option to tyranny. Also, why do so many of the people that we protect see us as the tyrant? In a recent survey taken in South Korea, I think it was not just more than half, but most young people see the US as being more dangerous to S. Korea than is N. Korea. It seems that for all of our good deeds we sure generate a lot of hatred.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Skywise,
My point exactly. Before the rally, the streets were peaceful. After the rally, the streets were peaceful. Who brought about a lasting peace? The police.
-Mike

Ummm...the police perpetrated the violence. The peace came after the protest was over (which did not end due to any actions of the police).

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Perhaps war is not the only option to tyranny.

Yeah right, perhaps we could have politely asked Hitler to please stop.

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Ummm...the police perpetrated the violence. The peace came after the protest was over (which did not end due to any actions of the police).

I can't blame the police for any violence that took place. The police didn't organize this protest. The protest was not their idea.

I guess if you liked police, you wouldn't be much of a dissident, would you? It could ruin your whole image.
-Mike

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yeah right, perhaps we could have asked Hitler nicely to please stop.

I don't think we should underestimate the power of information technology. The Hitlers of the world were, and are, but may not always be possible. Personally, I think the internet and related future environments and technologies may have the power to make tyranny impossible - it is getting really hard to keep those kinds of secrets. I think this means more now than ever since no country can remain completely isolated [economically]. My hope at least is that the world is simply getting too small for the bullies; including us when it applies.

I will never forget the faces of the U.S. Marines who, when landing on the beaches at Panama were confronted not by Panamanian soldiers, but by bright lights, cameras, and news crews. Look at the video discussed in this thread and the coverage of both Gulf wars; we have never seen anything like it. Information technology makes it more and more difficult for the atrocities of war and the random acts of tyrants to remain hidden in the shadows. This is a fundamentally new variable in human affairs.

I saw this cartoon in some newspaper during Gulf I. The picture shows a US bomber that has just attacked an Iraqi target. Inside of the cockpit a television can be seen set to CNN. The pilot says "check CNN and see how we did".

 

[Michael D. Sewell]

Personally, I think the internet and related future environments and technologies may have the power to make tyranny impossible - it is getting really hard to keep those kinds of secrets.

Hitler was not a secret.

 

[Adam]

Yeah right, perhaps we could have politely asked Hitler to please stop.

Before or after the Bush family completed its business with him?