A Tale of Perseverance: Overcoming Challenges in Graduate School

[uman]

I work at a fast food restaurant, and I would be amazed if someone smart enough to even get accepted into a phd program couldn't get a job at one.

You need to keep trying. Apply at ten different places, and don't wait for the managers to call you back: Call them back after a couple days. Be aggressive.

Now that school is starting up again (less people working summer jobs) it should be easier for you to find a position.

 

[Nick M]

Like said above, send out at least 10 resumes a day - even if it's just to companies that sound interesting. A heck of a lot of jobs aren't advertised. Except for a six month span of time that I did some extensive traveling, I've been working a minimum of 30 hours a week since I turned 14 and got a minor work permit. You need to pull your boots on and be pro-active.

 

[FTL_Diesel]

I don't think it's that far fetched at all. I know people who were naturally much smarter than me, but I ended up doing way better than them. Why? I always showed up to class, I put in the time and I wanted to work hard.

Amen to that.

"Eighty percent of success is showing up."

 

[uman]

On second thought, intelligence is one of the least important qualities for being a fast food worker. That's not to say it's easy. There are important qualities; among them are showing up every day on time, being willing to work hard, not having any sort of superior attitude, being able to deal with it when people (aka customers) think you are **** and show it (or in general any other unfair situation), and above all doing what you're told with a smile. If you're bored with physics coursework I guarantee you'll be bored working at McDonald's, but if you're willing to try to change your attitude it'd be a great way to build character.

 

[aquaregia]

I suggest you go to the store and buy a lottery ticket every day with your last $100, because if you win a million then all your problems will be solved and you can do anything you want.

Or get a job as a package handeler. I did, and it was such hard physical work that I realized that anything would be easier, and when I went back to school I found no problem with working 12 hours a day on school work.

Either way you will realize reality is ***** and you are lucky to be able to study instead lifing boxes all day.

 

[G01]

so i don't have any advice but i am curious how you go into a top-20 school at 16? seriously what are the logistics involved? i don't doubt you did, I'm genuinely curious how one goes about doing that.

I also would like to know how someone actually does this. I have heard before about younger than average college students (<=16) getting into college early, but I don't know how they do it.

How did you accomplish getting out of high school so early and getting into a college?

No one brought up the possible problems involved with a minor living in a dorm with "adults" (I use the word losely in regards to many college students) who could possibly provide alcohol, etc?

As ice said, I don't doubt you. I am curious though.

 

[will.c]

I was 18 when I got to college; I imagine most of the dorm inhabitants were sub-21, and we never seemed to have any trouble procuring beverages of a questionable nature.

I don't think it's too unrealistic for someone to get into a top school at age 16. That's really only 2 years behind a normal high school graduate - I could have easily skipped two years, but I'm pretty glad I didn't.

 

[lisab]

University for under 18-year-old teens? You bet!

When I was in college, I would estimate that about 5% of the students in the undergraduate physics program were under the age of 18. I was really surprised - I just figured that physics attracts young 'super geniuses' more than other fields of study. One kid in my advanced calculus class was 14 - the university required that one of his parents accompany him to class.

It was strange - I was in my mid 20s, sitting next to teenagers. Some brains just bloom early.

This was at the University of Washington in the late 1980s.

 

[ks_physicist]

I'm somewhat mystified by the fact that you worked in menial blue-collar jobs despite having a bacherlor's degree (and, if I read your first post accurately excellent grades for your undergrad courses) in physics. Couldn't you get a decent job as a high school physics teacher? You can always decide whether or not you want to return to grad school after you have a steady source of income.

Most teaching jobs require certification or licensure by the state. You usually either need to complete a teaching certification program at a college or university to be recommended for licensure.

Many states have alternative licensure programs that allow you to start working as a teacher immediately if you have an undergraduate degree in the field (or in a very closely related field, e.g. engineer teaching physics). It takes from one to three years to complete such programs, taking online and/or evening coursework and summer courses.

It is not the kind of job to recommend to someone who doesn't have good motivation. Between teaching, class prep, grading, and working on your education and any content deficiency coursework, you are easily looking at a 60-80 hour week.

 

[triangleman]

I also would like to know how someone actually does this. I have heard before about younger than average college students (<=16) getting into college early, but I don't know how they do it.

How did you accomplish getting out of high school so early and getting into a college?

No one brought up the possible problems involved with a minor living in a dorm with "adults" (I use the word losely in regards to many college students) who could possibly provide alcohol, etc?

As ice said, I don't doubt you. I am curious though.

It was mostly a matter of having good teachers. I demonstrated interest in math very early (two-base multiplication at four), and kept the interest up through high school. My ninth-grade science teacher noticed I was doing well in his course, and he loaned me a quantum mechanics text (Goswami) for self-study. I kept the book for a year, and turned through every page. Interestingly enough, it was my spanish teacher who did a lot of the legwork (even though I was earning a D in the course!) and referred me to a professor at the local university.

I had a one-hour meeting with this professor, and he asked me to do some of the "standard" quantum mechanics problems with 1-D potentials (particle in a box, particle off a cliff) on the board. After the problem session, he asked me to name the four forces in order of strength. The next day, my spanish teacher announced to the whole class that I'd been admitted to the university. A lot of people were shaking their heads--understandably so, because I was anything but a stellar student in HS.

This came on the heels of an intense desire to study science, though: my history teacher caught me studying a physics book in class. He grabbed the book, threw it in the garbage can, and kept on lecturing! My spanish teacher caught me more than once doing math problems while pretending to read the spanish text... This same spanish teacher gave me a class cut for sneaking into the chemistry lab to make aspirin during spanish class (the chemistry teacher was in on it, and he let me do the experiment while he was teaching his class).

But at the present, I'm really in a spot:
$$\text{(present)} = \text{(past)}^{-1}$$

 

[uman]

What? To me it seems like the present is similar to the past (low grades, no motivation to do things you don't find interesting, etc.)

 

[Howers]

I had a one-hour meeting with this professor, and he asked me to do some of the "standard" quantum mechanics problems with 1-D potentials (particle in a box, particle off a cliff) on the board. After the problem session, he asked me to name the four forces in order of strength. The next day, my spanish teacher announced to the whole class that I'd been admitted to the university. A lot of people were shaking their heads--understandably so, because I was anything but a stellar student in HS.

But at the present, I'm really in a spot:
$$\text{(present)} = \text{(past)}^{-1}$$

Bah physics isn't that difficult. If you said you knew real analysis then, that would be impressive.

I don't know what to tell you. You could be addicted to video games, which is pretty serious. Addictions serve as an escape from something, so either you really loathe school or just want a break from it all. The latter is especially true for those who do a lot of independent learning. Everything in moderation, otherwise you lose interest. Last summer I learned a lot of E&M over the summer, and it was great. However, not having a rest that entire summer, I performed really bad the following fall. It was not until December break when I recovered. So if you are doing your own reading, stop if for a few months and take a break from it. Play all the games you want during this time. When you get back, read over stuff you already know and find what made you love the field in the first place.

Or maybe you just suck at physics and aren't up to speed yet? This is especially true if you went to a low-tier school where they give out As like pancakes. Maybe memorizing how to find the potential by studying answers worked for tests, but left you no deep knowledge. Now that you are being challenged, you can't keep up - so run from it all.

You need to look deep down and ask yourself... do I want to do physics? Not because it is expected of you, or that you already went so far with it, but is it something you want to study in and out? If not, your bachelor is still worth something, so don't think it was all a waste. You should apply for entry positions in banks or something, where your mathematics will be of great use. In fact, a very lucrative field is actuarial science - and you won't need to get a degree. Just do some independent studying in economics and pass some exams, they will be happy to have you. Initially it will be a lot of monkey work, but the pay and opportunity will be better than McDs. Make sure you mention your "new found love for business" too, alleged or otherwise.

(Take some time off) x 2 + (think about it) = V(grad,school)

 

[vanesch]

[ ... ] Interestingly enough, it was my spanish teacher who did a lot of the legwork (even though I was earning a D in the course!) and referred me to a professor at the local university.

I had a one-hour meeting with this professor, and he asked me to do some of the "standard" quantum mechanics problems with 1-D potentials (particle in a box, particle off a cliff) on the board. After the problem session, he asked me to name the four forces in order of strength. The next day, my spanish teacher announced to the whole class that I'd been admitted to the university. A lot of people were shaking their heads--understandably so, because I was anything but a stellar student in HS.

This came on the heels of an intense desire to study science, though: my history teacher caught me studying a physics book in class. He grabbed the book, threw it in the garbage can, and kept on lecturing! My spanish teacher caught me more than once doing math problems while pretending to read the spanish text... This same spanish teacher gave me a class cut for sneaking into the chemistry lab to make aspirin during spanish class (the chemistry teacher was in on it, and he let me do the experiment while he was teaching his class).

Seems like it was your Spanish teacher, against his will, who got you into this mess ! The guy who was right was the history teacher. Your Spanish teacher made the bet of the brilliant but bored kid, only interested in one thing. It could have worked out in a sense - actually, it did on undergrad level. However, in doing so, he deprived you of the teaching you needed most: having the discipline to take up your responsibility and sit through whatever you have to sit through, like the Spanish course or the History course. And that's what's biting back now at an age where one doesn't accept such a behavior anymore.

But at the present, I'm really in a spot:
$$\text{(present)} = \text{(past)}^{-1}$$

As another poster said: no, the present is a repetition of the past, but at an age where it has worse consequences. You only do what you like, and you can't concentrate, even be present, on things you don't like or are not passionate about, like listening to the history course or the spanish course, or at least even have the decency of giving it a try. People were blinded back then because what you were passionate about was considered valuable (studying physics) - other kids, who are passionate about football or video games, don't trick their educational environment and get frowned upon.

In fact, that's what I supposed did happen:

[ ... ] It could be that studying and getting good results was really a game for you, and that you have never been in a situation where you HAD to do something you didn't find fun. Most kids have, and learned at a pretty young age that even if they didn't like to do something, they had to it nevertheless. They learned to take on some responsibility and developed the courage needed to "finish the job". It might be that because you showed signs of genius, that during your youth, people (your parents, your teachers, your professors) never forced you in "finishing the job" in anything except the one you enjoyed so much: bringing home good results and studying. So you never met the frustration and challenge of "having to finish a job you didn't find fun".

Point is, now you have reached the stage where you love video games, as any 14-year old does, and as you've always been used at doing what you like and nothing else, well, that's what you do. But instead of having some corrective measures by your (history?) teacher and your parents, you did that in grad school. So you're about 6 years behind on the scheme of things and people don't accept that at that point (visibly they even did, and gave you a few extra chances).

So THIS is really the point you have to work on, but I don't know how, because there are no teachers anymore, and you've outgrown your parents, for anybody to help. You've missed your usual occasion to learn some self discipline. Guess what ? Join the army. They'll teach you. It's the only place I know where adults can kick off a total lack of self-discipline.

 

[oedipa maas]

This is a tough situation. I have one friend who is in almost the same position as you - except he is 5 years older - and another friend who pulled himself out of a similar pit a few years ago. The latter also started university early, then bounced in and out of prestigious school for a while, working at a grocery store in between. After TEN years he finally pulled together enough credits to graduate in engineering. He worked in sales for a while, then worked part time in childcare thinking he might want to go into teaching. He has since discarded that plan and now he is employed by a consulting firm which works on civil engineering projects.

You need to take the next chance you get and show that you can work hard. Can you apply to a temp agency? You will end up in a bunch of short-term positions (for which you are a low risk to the company) but this will give you an opportunity to demonstrate that you can work. The jobs will also be more intellectually challenging than flipping burgers and if you do well you may be able to finesse your way into a more permanent position.

You can try applying for financial and computing positions which require a master's degree in physics/math/CS but it will be extremely difficult to make yourself an attractive candidate because of your past work ethic.

Don't go to teacher's college unless you really want to be a teacher.

Would you consider giving up computer games entirely?

It's pretty cool that you drove an 18 wheeler. I bet there were quite a few things enjoyable about that job - cruising down the highway listening to some tunes and watching the scenery. There is some enjoyment to be had in any job - make it part of your day to make your coworkers' days less boring.

 

[zheng89120]

I don't know about you, but I think the worst I can do with a physics degree is to become a high-school teacher, a better job then McDonald's or trucking. You just need one more year to get a teacher's certificate.

 

[triangleman]

Or get a job as a package handeler. I did, and it was such hard physical work that I realized that anything would be easier, and when I went back to school I found no problem with working 12 hours a day on school work.

Either way you will realize reality is ***** and you are lucky to be able to study instead lifing boxes all day.

As a matter of fact, this is what I'm doing now to subsist. The job is 12 x 5 + 10 x 2 hours per week, and it involves shuttling small packages around the area. It's a real dive, but it pays the bills.

Also, what you say in your last sentence is precisely what got me to work up the courage and start calling people in physics programs to see if they have room for a thesis student in their group. One institution actually entertained the idea (a top-50 school), and sent my CV to the appropriate group. Of course they're going to chat with the people at my old graduate program, and the jury's still out on how sympathetic they'll be. If they say no, I'll probably try another place and negotiate for a second chance. I've been, and am amazed at how limited my options are in the workforce, and I feel that leaving the chance to do independent research and earn a Ph.D. would be an unfortunate (and lazy) compromise.

 

[will.c]

You still haven't answered why the hell you want to be a physicist. If you're going to relapse, getting your Ph.D. is a dumb idea.

 

[nrqed]

I think that you must really take some time to think about what you would îç enjoy ^éiç doing. If physics is not it, then there is no point in pushing in that direction. You are obviously very bright so if motivation was not there, phyiscs simply may not be what you should be doing. Spend some time to think broadly...engineering? business? med school? jet pilot? park ranger?
I am not sure that going back to grad school is a good idea right now if it does not get you excited.

 

[Manchot]

Also, what you say in your last sentence is precisely what got me to work up the courage and start calling people in physics programs to see if they have room for a thesis student in their group. One institution actually entertained the idea (a top-50 school), and sent my CV to the appropriate group. Of course they're going to chat with the people at my old graduate program, and the jury's still out on how sympathetic they'll be.

You're only 24, right? It seems to me that you'd be better off applying as if you didn't even attend your first grad school. In other words, can you just apply as if you were a senior undergrad? If anyone asks, you can just say that you took some time off after undergrad or something like that.

 

[G01]

I think that you must really take some time to think about what you would îç enjoy ^éiç doing. If physics is not it, then there is no point in pushing in that direction. You are obviously very bright so if motivation was not there, phyiscs simply may not be what you should be doing. Spend some time to think broadly...engineering? business? med school? jet pilot? park ranger?
I am not sure that going back to grad school is a good idea right now if it does not get you excited.

I agree. You have to figure out what you really want to do. You are smart and obviously want a stimulating field to work in. But if you can't get interested in physics, then the field just may not be for you. Physics is not the only intellectually challenging field out there. Figure out what you really want before you make any decisions to go back to grad school.

Like I said before. You have to figure out why you "crashed" in grad school. What were you missing? Why did you not have the interest and passion you had in high school? Were you too immature with your attitude? Was it the field itself or just life in grad school you couldn't stand? Maybe you just don't like doing research? These are questions you need to answer before you make any major decisions. Otherwise, the same thing may happen again.

 

[Locrian]

You still haven't answered why the hell you want to be a physicist. If you're going to relapse, getting your Ph.D. is a dumb idea.

Seriously. I find the fact that you're even considering going back to get a physics degree appalling, and the reason for doing it (because it's better than moving boxes) is just absurd. Sorry to be harsh, but you need it.

Let me give you an opinion that is less common around here: A PhD in particle physics (and many other areas of physics) is worth only slightly more than your failed 4 years - and if it takes someone 8 years to finish, it might be worth less. Our country produces several times as many scientists and engineers as it actually needs, there's been a massive overproduction of people whose only job option is to be a professor for over 30 years, and very few disciplines in physics have any value outside the university.

You were roped into this at least partly because of our society's weird obsession with physics. It's time to grow beyond that and actually find something you can really be successful in.

 

[Defennder]

You were roped into this at least partly because of our society's weird obsession with physics. It's time to grow beyond that and actually find something you can really be successful in.

Since when has there been a fascination with physics? If anything, I remember reading fewer and fewer students picked physics as a major nowadays.

 

[triangleman]

Seriously. I find the fact that you're even considering going back to get a physics degree appalling...

Let me give you an opinion that is less common around here: A PhD in particle physics (and many other areas of physics) is worth only slightly more than your failed 4 years - and if it takes someone 8 years to finish, it might be worth less. Our country produces several times as many scientists and engineers as it actually needs, there's been a massive overproduction of people whose only job option is to be a professor for over 30 years, and very few disciplines in physics have any value outside the university.

Are you talking about the US? Last time I checked (cf. the period Bush has been in office), we were playing second fiddle to the UK in science, mostly because of poor funding for the major agencies: NIH, DOE, NASA, etc. It's not that we are overmanned in science and engineering--we are in fact suffering attrition because of the funding situation and lack of focus on basic research.

Regarding the job options: Ph.D. graduates in physics aren't as pigeon-holed as you would think. Three of the senior graduate students in our high-energy-physics group graduated within one year of one another. None of these three were headed to a post-doc; they simply weren't interested in that 30-plus years in academia. Instead, they all went to Wall Street to take jobs in algorithmic trading and build models, and rest assured, they are all very well-to-do. This isn't to say that one should get their doctorate to get rich, but it does open up more doors than just receiving a B.S. or M.S. in physics, even if it takes those 8 years.

Also, in many places, a Ph.D. in physics commands more attention than an MBA or even a degree in computer science, because (i) Ph.D. recipients tend to be more disciplined then their MBA candidates, and (ii) you'll likely not get very far without automating at least some of your data analysis work (did you really think that slide rule would help with those ML fits?).

 

[triangleman]

Thanks for all the advice, and sorry for resurrecting such an ancient thread. I've decided to return to school after working as an office manager and hating every nanosecond of it. The school is going to put me on three months probation and let me work in a research lab outside of the physics department. Based on my performance in that lab, they'll either reinstate me as a physics graduate student or give me the royal boot. Is this something you would have done?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Honestly, no. I would have instead hired someone who hadn't squandered every opportunity he had been presented with. I think you should consider yourself very, very fortunate.

3 months is 13 weeks or 65 working days. If I were you, I would make sure I was the first person to arrive and the last person to leave on every single one of those 65 days.

 

[Moonbear]

3 months is 13 weeks or 65 working days. If I were you, I would make sure I was the first person to arrive and the last person to leave on every single one of those 65 days.

Working days? Grad school doesn't operate on 5-day weeks. I'd suggest being the first to arrive and last to leave for every single one of the 90 days of this second chance. If that doesn't cut it, then it's time to face up to needing to find a change of path. You started out young, and people change as they mature. You might just realize in a few years that getting kicked out of grad school was the best thing that ever happened to you when you find something you really enjoy so much more.

 

[Borek]

3 months is more than 90 days, unless you happen to start before March 1^st on a non-leap year

 

[Vanadium 50]

Working days? Grad school doesn't operate on 5-day weeks.

I figured I'd let him ease into it.

 

[Moonbear]

3 months is more than 90 days, unless you happen to start before March 1^st on a non-leap year

:tongue: The first or last weekend probably doesn't count.

But, I think the point is clear. I don't feel sorry for grad students who complain they aren't able to make the progress their committee expects of them if I don't ever see them in the lab on weekends or evenings. The coursework is a full time job and the research is a full time job. When you have two full time jobs, that means you have to work evenings and weekends to get it all done.

 

[G01]

Even as an undergrad working on my senior project, I have found myself in the lab at hours "normal people" would have gone home.

I agree with the previous points

1.I also would not have taken you back if I was in the school's place, since you have shown time and time again, that you are a waste of their money and a waste of a position they could have given to a much more productive student.

2. That said, you HAVE to prove me wrong if you want to succeed this time around. Show them that you will no longer waste their time or the position they are giving you. Take MB's advice and work evenings and weekends.

If you really enjoy the work, then this shouldn't be a problem. If you don't enjoy the work, then I have no idea why you want to go back into physics, since it obviously isn't what you want/expect it to be.

Good luck to you.

 

[PowerIso]

Thanks for all the advice, and sorry for resurrecting such an ancient thread. I've decided to return to school after working as an office manager and hating every nanosecond of it. The school is going to put me on three months probation and let me work in a research lab outside of the physics department. Based on my performance in that lab, they'll either reinstate me as a physics graduate student or give me the royal boot. Is this something you would have done?

Yes, I would've returned back to school, but that is because I love studying what I study. It doesn't matter what we would've done, but rather what is best for you. Are you going back to school just because you have no idea what else to do? If so, then I don't see many things changing for you. However, if somewhere, in your heart, you want to keep studying physics then I wish you well and hope your work habits improve.

 

[jhicks]

What an interesting thread. It rings home a bit when I read triangleman's plight. Ever since I was a second semester undergrad I've questioned why I'm in college studying EE given I interned and hated every day of it and worked in a lab for over a year but struggled to find the motivation to work on anything lab-oriented, but interestingly enough here I am working on my PhD. Frankly, I'm pretty sure the only reason I started EE was because it was accepted by my peers to be the absolute hardest degree. Anyway, like him I had a tough run-in with video games early on and averaged around 8 hours a day over 3 years. I remember taking abstract algebra as a freshman after "the game" came out and getting my first C, and then withdrawing from a couple classes and being so mad at myself but still unwilling to quit and rewarding myself with "the game" every time I did minor things well.

There never was a point where I resolved to do better, but over time I was humiliated more and more at falling short of every goal I set for myself. I channeled this sentiment into doing better toward the end, but I can't say that I am proud of anything I did in undergrad even though apparently it was enough to get into a top 10 grad school. I am still extremely disappointed in myself though - regardless of what some admissions committee thinks - because in my eyes you're not even close to an engineer if you haven't built something with your hands.

Triangleman, I wish you the best in finding yourself. If you fail again, I am honest-to-god suggesting that you join the military. During undergrad I worked for a year with a guy who had been discharged after a few years and his work ethic was absolutely astounding. He told me all these stories about how he was a typical bad-attitude-no-work-ethic kid in a bad part of town and I was in disbelief.

 

[mal4mac]

Join the military and get sent to Iraq? Die in a stupid war based on the lies of Tony Blair and George Bush? What sense does that make? If you need discipline why not become a physics teacher? The best way to learn anything is to teach it - and you have to teach discipline to kids or they will make your life a misery. Also, you can't get away with skiving off to play video games if there's a class waiting...

 

[jhicks]

Join the military and get sent to Iraq? Die in a stupid war based on the lies of Tony Blair and George Bush? What sense does that make?

You know there are more jobs in the military than just infantry. You don't think a physics degree might qualify him for some of those jobs?

If you need discipline why not become a physics teacher? The best way to learn anything is to teach it - and you have to teach discipline to kids or they will make your life a misery.

So learn particle physics by teaching semester 1 of mechanics over and over? Who doesn't make sense now! I'm not arguing teaching isn't a tough job, but it's still not severe enough that one would be forced to learn discipline.

 

[mal4mac]

So learn particle physics by teaching semester 1 of mechanics over and over? Who doesn't make sense now! I'm not arguing teaching isn't a tough job, but it's still not severe enough that one would be forced to learn discipline.

I meant that he might learn discipline by teaching discipline, not that he could learn advanced physics by teaching basic physics. The regimented school day, and a reasonably strict headmaster, should also impose some discipline on him. After all, he didn't flunk high school, so school discipline was enough for him as a school student. How do you know such a regime would not be severe enough as a teacher?

Anyway he could try that, or other civvy jobs. For instance, working in front-line IT support/call centre work would necessitate being 'on the job' 9 to 5, and force him to stop playing computer games. If all that fails then it's either 'the street', prison, or the army. Then I would suggest the army...