Neither positive nor negative ?

[phya]

If we require that the north is positive number,For example +10Km,South for the negative number,For example -10Km,So, what is the number of 10 km east then?

I think there are other neither positive nor negative，Not only 0 is neither positive nor negative .

Therefore, a number of absolute value is not positive number，Is neither positive nor negative.

For example,|-2|= 2,|+4|= 4
2 and 4 are neither positive nor negative.

Distance should not be a positive number.Distance should be neither positive nor negative.

 

[Mark44]

If we require that the north is positive number,For example +10Km,North for the negative number,For example -10Km,

What are you saying here?

So, what is the number of 10 km east then?

I think there are other neither positive nor negative，Not only 0 is neither positive nor negative .

No, 0 is the only real number that is neither positive nor negative. All other real numbers are either positive or negative.

Therefore, a number of absolute value is not positive number，Is neither positive nor negative.

For example,|-2|= 2,|+4|= 4
2 and 4 are neither positive nor negative.

Baloney. Any real number that is less than 0 is negative; any real number that is greater than 0 is positive. -2 is negative, since - 2 < 0. 4 is positive, since 4 > 0.

Distance should not be a positive number.Distance should be neither positive nor negative.

Distance is typically nonnegative, but directed distance (e.g. 5 units forward or 8 units backward) can have a connotation of sign.

 

[Mentallic]

There is a reason why it is called a number line. If you want to involve 2 dimensions then you need a coordinate system that has two real numbers (x,y) to describe every point in the system.
So, 10km East breaks away from the 1 dimensional line that the numbers lie on that are representing North and South which means 10km East cannot be represented by a number in the typical sense if 10km North = 10 and 10km South = -10.

 

[phya]

Distance is typically nonnegative, but directed distance (e.g. 5 units forward or 8 units backward) can have a connotation of sign.

If the distance is only the size, then there being no sign.If the distance is typically nonnegative,Then the distance is a direction.

 

[Mark44]

If the distance is only the size, then there being no sign.

Sure.

If the distance is typically nonnegative,Then the distance is a direction.

?

 

[phya]

Sure.

So，Distance should be neither positive nor negative.

 

[phya]

?

directed distance .

 

[phya]

There is a reason why it is called a number line. If you want to involve 2 dimensions then you need a coordinate system that has two real numbers (x,y) to describe every point in the system.
So, 10km East breaks away from the 1 dimensional line that the numbers lie on that are representing North and South which means 10km East cannot be represented by a number in the typical sense if 10km North = 10 and 10km South = -10.

If we require that the female is positive number,For example +10,Male for the negative number,For example -10,So, what is the number of 10 Asexual then?

 

[Mark44]

So，Distance should be neither positive nor negative.

No, distance is nonnegative: either positive or zero.

 

[phya]

No, distance is nonnegative: either positive or zero.

phya: If the distance is only the size, then there being no sign.
Mark44: Sure.
phya: So，Distance should be neither positive nor negative.

This is the correct logic.

 

[Mark44]

If we require that the female is positive number,For example +10,Male for the negative number,For example -10,So, what is the number of 10 Asexual then?

This doesn't work. You are trying to measure three attributes but have only two directions. You need another dimension.

It's the same thing with your first example. If going east is considered the positive direction, then going west would be considered the negative direction. For example, + 8 would mean 8 units to the east, and -4 would be 4 units to the west. You can't work in another direction in this simple system, as Mentallic already mentioned.

It seems to me that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work. A number such as 6 is positive. It could be written as +6, but that + sign is not needed, since 6 is already positive. The sign has to be present for negative numbers, though, such as -5.

 

[phya]

This doesn't work. You are trying to measure three attributes but have only two directions. You need another dimension.

It's the same thing with your first example. If going east is considered the positive direction, then going west would be considered the negative direction. For example, + 8 would mean 8 units to the east, and -4 would be 4 units to the west. You can't work in another direction in this simple system, as Mentallic already mentioned.

It seems to me that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work. A number such as 6 is positive. It could be written as +6, but that + sign is not needed, since 6 is already positive. The sign has to be present for negative numbers, though, such as -5.

You do not understand.If we require that the female is positive number,For example +10 man,Male for the negative number,For example -10 woman,So, what is the number of 10 person (neither female nor male )then?

 

[phya]

Abstract person.

 

[Mentallic]

Why are these males and females given the value 10? We used 10 for north because it was 10km north, our unit being the kilometre. What is the unit for the values representing the people?
However, introducing an abstract concept like this into the mathematics of magnitudes, there most likely won't be any reasonable answer since it is not a reasonable question.

In my garden, each apple I have is given the value +1 while each orange I have is given the value -1. When you introduce bananas into the problem then it becomes meaningless.

 

[JeSuisConf]

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but presumably you're looking at using complex valued numbers (the standard way to represent direction and distance), and the 2-norm for distance.

 

[Mark44]

In my garden, each apple I have is given the value +1 while each orange I have is given the value -1. When you introduce bananas into the problem then it becomes meaningless.

Well, that's an apples to oranges (+ bananas) comparison.

 

[Mark44]

You do not understand.If we require that the female is positive number,For example +10 man,Male for the negative number,For example -10 woman,So, what is the number of 10 person (neither female nor male )then?

The simplistic system you have set up does not allow for neuter persons.

You have two pieces of information: a sign (+ for women and - for men) and a number. You have not clearly defined what the number represents. Is it how many men or women we're talking about?

If that's the case, then

+4 (or 4) means 4 men
-6 means 6 women
0 means no people

You can't extend this system to include genderless persons.

 

[Mute]

phya: If the distance is only the size, then there being no sign.
Mark44: Sure.
phya: So，Distance should be neither positive nor negative.

This is the correct logic.

Your notions are incorrect. In Euclidean space distances are postive; we simply don't write the + sign because everything is positive by assumption.

In Minkowski space (which is what special relativity's spacetime is), however, it is possible for distances to be negative. Just because we do not have negative distances in Euclidean space does not mean the distances have no sign.

 

[phya]

In my garden, each apple I have is given the value +1 while each orange I have is given the value -1. When you introduce bananas into the problem then it becomes meaningless.

The amount of positive and negative numbers are opposite, but Apple's content is contrary to what?

 

[phya]

Why are these males and females given the value 10? We used 10 for north because it was 10km north, our unit being the kilometre. What is the unit for the values representing the people?

Three men, +3, three woman, -3,Three people,3.

 

[Mentallic]

The amount of positive and negative numbers are opposite, but Apple's content is contrary to what?

Contrary to how you brought neuter people into the equation. Females are positive, males are negative, and that's all you can say. Bringing in neutral people does not make sense in your setup and I gave you another example of such with the apples and oranges.

Three men, +3, three woman, -3,Three people,3.

This is like saying 3km north +3, 3km south -3, 3km in either direction (assuming the 3 people are all the same gender because we can't be certain without more information). We would equate this as |x|=3 which means absolute value of x is 3 or in other words $x=\pm 3$. Now if you try introduce something completely different into this system like neuter people or old people or whatever you want, you need to define what their value is in the system you've shown (i.e. a neutral person can have value 0 and an old female can have value 1/2 etc.)
But this isn't like the north east south example because East is already well defined as a direction perpendicular to the north-south line. This means we need 2 dimensions to describe a point in that plane.

 

[jgens]

Basically, it looks like the OP is looking for a nice way to order the elements of $\mathbb{R}^2$, which AFAIK doesn't have a standard ordering. At the very least, it's certainly not possible to impose an ordering over $\mathbb{R}^2$ which satisfies the axioms for an ordered field.

 

[Mark44]

The amount of positive and negative numbers are opposite, but Apple's content is contrary to what?

This makes no sense at all.

 

[Mark44]

Three men, +3, three woman, -3,Three people,3.

As already stated, 3 and +3 are considered to be the same number.

You could define an encoding system that used +,-,<blank> together with a number to represent the number of men, women, or neuters, but it would have to be understood by all who used this system that it bears little relation to the way numbers are traditionally represented. In particular, +n $\neq$ n.

 

[phya]

Outflow volume, negative，Volume of inflows, positive，Flow，Flow is only the size.North is negative, the South is positive, the absolute value of only size,absolute value is neither positive nor negative.

 

[Mark44]

Outflow volume, negative，Volume of inflows, positive，Flow，Flow is only the size.North is negative, the South is positive, the absolute value of only size,absolute value is neither positive nor negative.

The absolute value function returns a number that is zero or positive.

E.g., |+5| = +5, |-2| = +2, |0| = 0.

 

[phya]

Absolute mean? Positive and negative is relative, right? Therefore, any number of absolute value is an unsigned number.

 

[jgens]

Absolute mean? Positive and negative is relative, right? Therefore, any number of absolute value is an unsigned number.

No, positive and negative are not relative. Positive means > 0 and negative means < 0. These are specific definitions. It is a basic property of the real numbers that every number is either > 0, = 0, or < 0. Since the absolute value of a real number is also a real number, this means that |a| > 0, |a| = 0, or |a| < 0. The last case is ruled out by the definition of absolute value, so |a| > 0 or |a| = 0. Therefore, the absolute value of a real number is either positive or zero; it's not unsigned.

 

[phya]

No, positive and negative are not relative. Positive means > 0 and negative means < 0. These are specific definitions. It is a basic property of the real numbers that every number is either > 0, = 0, or < 0. Since the absolute value of a real number is also a real number, this means that |a| > 0, |a| = 0, or |a| < 0. The last case is ruled out by the definition of absolute value, so |a| > 0 or |a| = 0. Therefore, the absolute value of a real number is either positive or zero; it's not unsigned.

Positive and negative are defined relative to the zero.

 

[jgens]

Positive and negative are defined relative to the zero.

Sure, they are relative to zero, but since the value of zero doesn't change (it's defined to be the additive identity element), they're concrete. Positive and negative have fixed meanings and for a very good purpose.

 

[phya]

For example -1, the volume is 1, the symbol -. Therefore, the symbols and the volume is not the same thing.

 

[Mentallic]

If you define a situation where you count -1 for each litre of water in tank A and 1 for each litre in tank B, then when the water is in tank A it will be -1, but the volume of water is still 1 litre. I don't get why this is bothering you so much...

 

[HallsofIvy]

For example -1, the volume is 1, the symbol -. Therefore, the symbols and the volume is not the same thing.

You keep asserting nonsense. Nosense does not become true, or even 'sense' just because you say so. "1" is a number, whether you think of it as a volume, and area or anything else. "-1" is also a number. To assert that "-" is a symbol without saying what you mean by "symbol" is nonsense. If you mean what is normally meant by "symbol", then, yes, "-" is a symbol, but so is "1" so you are still talking nonsense. Symbols by themselves mean nothing. "-1" and "1" are symbols with specific given meanings- in that sense they are both numbers.

 

[phya]

If you define a situation where you count -1 for each litre of water in tank A and 1 for each litre in tank B, then when the water is in tank A it will be -1, but the volume of water is still 1 litre. I don't get why this is bothering you so much...

Suppose we require, the men said with a -1, the woman says with a +1, then the three men, that is, 3 * (-1), the three women is 3 * (+1), may I ask, where the third is positive or negative ? Obviously, the three is not positive, not negative.

 

[Mark44]

Suppose we require, the men said with a -1, the woman says with a +1, then the three men, that is, 3 * (-1), the three women is 3 * (+1), may I ask, where the third is positive or negative ? Obviously, the three is not positive, not negative.

It is apparently not obvious to you, but it's obvious to pretty much everyone else that 3 is positive.

As already stated a couple of other times, 3 and +3 represent the same (positive) number.