Exploring the Relationship Between Gravity and Bound States in Hydrogen Atom

In summary, the conversation discusses the lack of observable gravitational effects between an electron and a proton despite their close proximity at the quantum level. Some theories predict a reduction in electric charge due to the influence of gravity at high energies, but this claim is still controversial. While there have been some recent developments in using general relativity to describe aspects of condensed matter systems, this is not directly related to the question of gravity interacting with matter in our spacetime. The fundamental quantum gravity theory is assumed to have the Planck level as its characteristic scale, but most of the observable universe has much lower temperatures. This results in the degrees of freedom of quantum gravity being effectively frozen out in most of our universe, making gravitational interactions between particles statistically negligible.
  • #1
qsa
353
1
In hydrogen atom the electron and the proton come very close to each other statistically(their wavefunctions even merge), so why we do not see the effect of gravity which should be on the order of other forces at Planck distance. Otherwise, compton to compton wavelength distance is too high for QG.
 
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  • #2
If the gravity effect is predicted by theory at Planck scale, and we do not see it, and assuming the effect it is at a level that can be measured, then our model of the interaction between electron and proton is incorrect--would this not be correct ?
 
  • #3
Salman2 said:
If the gravity effect is predicted by theory at Planck scale, and we do not see it, and assuming the effect it is at a level that can be measured, then our model of the interaction between electron and proton is incorrect--would this not be correct ?

It seems that p-e model is correct since QED has been confirmed experimentally. but I have my doubts about gravity theories at short distances because their effect should be noticable. searching the net I have not found anything about this question. Although a related minimum length/dimention has been investigated.


http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0812/0812.4227v1.pdf

as an example
 
  • #4
The gravitational effects are very many orders of magnitude lower than the interaction between an electron and a proton. Why do you think we need huge accelerators to probe just QCD (still orders below QG) while electron-proton stuff is done in table-top experiments. Heck even chemists can do electron-proton stuff !

The electron and proton do come close but no where near the Planck scale
compare atom size of 10^-10m to Planck length 10^-35m
 
  • #5
negru said:
The gravitational effects are very many orders of magnitude lower than the interaction between an electron and a proton. Why do you think we need huge accelerators to probe just QCD (still orders below QG) while electron-proton stuff is done in table-top experiments. Heck even chemists can do electron-proton stuff !

The electron and proton do come close but no where near the Planck scale
compare atom size of 10^-10m to Planck length 10^-35m

while it is true that electrons spend mostly (statistic) at bohr radius(more like expectation value), but as a wave and a probabilty of location they can practically be on top of each other. Doesn't that count for anything.
 
  • #6
here is a paper that sheds some light on the subject, it was listed by MTd2

This paper will be published on Nature!

http://arxiv.org/abs/1010.0793

Quantum gravitational contributions to quantum electrodynamics

David J. Toms
(Submitted on 5 Oct 2010)
Quantum electrodynamics describes the interactions of electrons and photons. Electric charge (the gauge coupling constant) is energy dependent, and there is a previous claim that charge is affected by gravity (described by general relativity) with the implication that the charge is reduced at high energies. But that claim has been very controversial with the situation inconclusive. Here I report an analysis (free from earlier controversies) demonstrating that that quantum gravity corrections to quantum electrodynamics have a quadratic energy dependence that result in the reduction of the electric charge at high energies, a result known as asymptotic freedom.
 
  • #8
here is one more possibility

http://arxiv.org/abs/1010.2784

Surprising Connections Between General Relativity and Condensed Matter
Gary T. Horowitz
14 pages; based on talk given at GR19
(Submitted on 13 Oct 2010)
"This brief review is intended to introduce gravitational physicists to recent developments in which general relativity is being used to describe certain aspects of condensed matter systems, e.g., superconductivity."
 
  • #9
qsa said:
here is one more possibility

http://arxiv.org/abs/1010.2784

Surprising Connections Between General Relativity and Condensed Matter
Gary T. Horowitz
14 pages; based on talk given at GR19
(Submitted on 13 Oct 2010)
"This brief review is intended to introduce gravitational physicists to recent developments in which general relativity is being used to describe certain aspects of condensed matter systems, e.g., superconductivity."

That's a very exciting line of work, but I don't think it is what you were asking about - ie. gravity interacting with matter in our spacetime. That work is about matter in our spacetime being describable as gravity in another spacetime.
 
  • #10
atyy said:
That's a very exciting line of work, but I don't think it is what you were asking about - ie. gravity interacting with matter in our spacetime. That work is about matter in our spacetime being describable as gravity in another spacetime.

Thanks for the clarification.But I guess I was more thinking about this sort of line


http://www.fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Jannes_janneslimits.pdf

"
First, the fundamental `quantum gravity' theory is generally assumed to have the Planck level as its characteristic scale. Expressed as a temperature, this Planck level lies at approximately 10^32 K. On the other hand, almost all of the observable universe has temperatures that barely exceed the cosmic background radiation temperature of a few Kelvins. Even the interior of a star such as the sun is more than 20 orders of magnitude colder than the Planck temperature, while the highest energies that are planned to be produced at the Large Hadron Collider are still roughly 15 orders of magnitude lower than the Planck scale. So the degrees of freedom of quantum gravity, independently of their fundamental structure, are probably effectively frozen out in most of our universe, just like in a condensed matter system in a low-temperature laboratory.

"
 
  • #11
I reitrate my question, why is it that when two particles waves overlap no gravitational interaction is expected. yet the particles could be sitting on top of each other statistically. I assume running coupling G is almost 1 near the particle.
 
  • #12
Like it's been said, there will be gravitational effects, just very small. Even if you take the classical force laws, and compare gravity to coulomb force, for eg two electrons you'll get that gravity is like 10^-40 weaker than coulomb force. Eg zero for all purposes, and unmeasurable.
 
  • #13
negru said:
Like it's been said, there will be gravitational effects, just very small. Even if you take the classical force laws, and compare gravity to coulomb force, for eg two electrons you'll get that gravity is like 10^-40 weaker than coulomb force. Eg zero for all purposes, and unmeasurable.

Thank you for your response. the classical calculation is well known to me, but I guess I am not clear in my question. Since I am trying to get some connection between wavefunction(QM) and gravity I am more asking about the nature of QG. So when two waves overlap that is equivalent (or is it) to two particles sitting on top of each other, then shouldn't the particles gravities affect each other since their potential is of 1/r and r is going to zero (or maybe G going to 1). Or I guess the whole wavefunction must be taken into account. In this case you should see some effect if both are delta function sitting near each other. but the wave function must carry G somewhere (probably involving all constants but changing with distance). Any other ideas!
 
  • #14
a follow up idea is that the two delta functions (at or near Lp) represent particles with huge masses, which I guess no amount of gravity force can make them budge. hence f=ma breaks down since a=0, what do you think.
 

1. What is the relationship between gravity and bound states in a hydrogen atom?

The relationship between gravity and bound states in a hydrogen atom is that gravity is one of the fundamental forces that holds the electron and proton together in the atom. This gravitational force is what allows the electron to remain in orbit around the nucleus, creating the different energy levels or bound states in the atom.

2. How does gravity impact the energy levels of a hydrogen atom?

Gravity impacts the energy levels of a hydrogen atom by affecting the distance between the electron and the nucleus. As the distance between the two decreases, the gravitational force increases, causing a decrease in the energy levels. This explains why the energy levels of the hydrogen atom are closer together as the distance from the nucleus increases.

3. Can gravity be used to explain the stability of a hydrogen atom?

Yes, gravity plays a key role in explaining the stability of a hydrogen atom. Without the gravitational force holding the electron and proton together, the atom would not be stable and would eventually break apart. This is why gravity is considered one of the fundamental forces in the universe.

4. How does the mass of an atom affect its gravitational force?

The mass of an atom does not directly affect its gravitational force. The gravitational force between two objects is determined by their masses and the distance between them. However, since the mass of the proton is much greater than the mass of the electron, the proton's contribution to the overall gravitational force is much greater.

5. What other factors besides gravity contribute to the formation of bound states in a hydrogen atom?

Besides gravity, the electromagnetic force also plays a crucial role in the formation of bound states in a hydrogen atom. This force is responsible for the attraction between the positively charged proton and negatively charged electron. Without this force, the atom would not be stable and the electron would not remain in orbit around the nucleus.

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