Why is English compulsory at school?

[HeLiXe]

Diagramming sentences from Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates is fun. Try diagramming one of Sarah Palin's sentences.

:rofl:
*imagines a stick figure moose*

Why do you always make the bright side so bright?

 

[WannabeNewton]

Try diagramming one of Sarah Palin's sentences.

Lol and them submit it to Jon Stewart. It would be comedy gold.

 

[Astronuc]

The only thing I hated about English was my professor trying to make it fun.

I would enjoy a root canal without anathesia more than an English literature class.

 

[russ_watters]

He specifically gave examples about classes that involve analysis of literature. How does this relate to research paper writing skills? Why do people keep making this fallacious link between literary analysis of English texts and proper writing abilities? There is a difference between having a good command of grammar and having a good command of hyperbole, simile, metaphor, allusion, personification, and visceral / descriptive language.

What, you've never used them in a technical context? Not even when trying to present something to a non-technical audience? I recently compared my job to a game of Tetris! It went over very well.

 

[WannabeNewton]

What, you've never used them in a technical context? Not even when trying to present something to a non-technical audience? I recently compared my job to a game of Tetris! It went over very well.

But maybe that was because of the awesomeness of Tetris . In that context however, I certainly do agree with you that when explaining things in a non - technical manner to an audience an ability to describe things in a more decorative, visual manner would be vital.

 

[VertexOperator]

What, you've never used them in a technical context? Not even when trying to present something to a non-technical audience? I recently compared my job to a game of Tetris! It went over very well.

Can't you use logic to do that? I mean you don't really need to have done English to be able to do that.

 

[HeLiXe]

I would enjoy a root canal without anathesia more than an English literature class.

:rofl: Bien dit!

Bien dit = well said...this disclosure is to keep in adherence with PF guidelines.

 

[russ_watters]

Most of this "will I use this/will I use that" stuff is irrelevant anyway. That's not why you are learning certain things. You are learning such a broad range because:

1. You are young and odds are you don't know what you want to do yet. So it is good to get a taste. If all you learn is that you hate literature and don't look for meaning in movies, it's still a valuable lesson.
2. Schools aren't designed for you, they are designed for all kids.

 

[BobG]

I would enjoy a root canal without anathesia more than an English literature class.

Dentists assure patients that a root canal without anasthesia is fairly painless. It's the pre-root canal pain caused by an infected tooth, cutting to drain the pus from any infections, and the possibility that the patient is biting into an infected tooth that causes the pain.

Drilling into a relatively healthy tooth is a lot more painful.

Haven't you ever watched Marathon Man?

In fact, it's from the dentist in that movie that I heard root canals are relatively painless.

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

The actual concept behind a literary analysis class is admirable, in that the process of analyzing what you read and deciphering it for yourself is a skill that everyone should possess.

However, this skill is only useful when what you are analyzing actually contains some substance, and isn't simply an ambiguous novel that can be interpreted in so many different ways to where nothing useful can be said about it; this is the case for every English class I have experienced (aside from a class devoted entirely to grammar), and to every other English/Literary Analysis class I have heard about.

 

[FreeMitya]

Because the education system is designed to provide balance. I'm sure there are a lot of aspiring literary critics, writers, etc. who think that, for them, maths and science are a waste of time beyond, of course, the very essentials of each subject.

I think it would be sad if, going into high school, for example, a student who wanted to focus only on science and maths missed out on something he/she might love only because he/she felt he/she didn't need.

 

[Astronuc]

I learned much more about how to communicate and write effectively from my history and politics classes than I did from literary analysis classes. Why? Because the former deals with tangible things that actually matter and actually incite strong opinions in people whereas the latter deals with elements of literature the likes of which are argued mainly by experts in the field. I can take my political opinions and put it into writing in order to effectively get a message across because such aspects of the world pertain to me directly and induce strong emotions whereas an essay on why Fitzgerald made the beacon light green in The Great Gatsby imbues as much emotion in a person as an episode of Seinfeld. If one wishes to forge a medium for proper communication and expression then one should use a nexus of ideas that inspire and provide relation, not center on specific literary aspects of a single book.

Exactly! There is an enormous treasury of writing of folks like Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Jay, Ellery Channing, Theodore Parker all of the 18th and early 19th century, and Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Abraham Lincoln, William Seward and many others from the 19th cent, not to mention other legal, political or social literature from Europe and Asia. For me, fiction pales in comparison to the essays of real people.

I'm currently reading a book on Lincoln's writings. In the back is a section of 'study aids'. In the first part, the author refers to one of Lincoln's earliest letters and says, "The average college graduate should be able to write as good an address as this one." It then goes on to ask questions about the essay and encourages the student to think about various aspects of the address. I would much prefer analyzing Lincoln's essays/letters/addresses than some piece of fiction.

Seriously, my favorite part of English class was diagramming sentences.

I remember that from 8th and 9th grade. Otherwise, English tended to drag down my GPA.

 

[Astronuc]

Dentists assure patients that a root canal without anasthesia is fairly painless. It's the pre-root canal pain caused by an infected tooth, cutting to drain the pus from any infections, and the possibility that the patient is biting into an infected tooth that causes the pain.

Drilling into a relatively healthy tooth is a lot more painful.

Haven't you ever watched Marathon Man?

In fact, it's from the dentist in that movie that I heard root canals are relatively painless.

Where the tissue is necrosed, yes, one does not feel the auger. However, when the auger reaches live tissue, one can feel some intense pain, which is fine. Perhaps I should have indicated root canal or other surgery without anasthesia.

In my only root canal operation, the orthodontist did offer a local anasthetic. I thought it better to go without so I could tell him when he reached live tissue in my gum so that we could be sure he had removed the dead tissue. The sharp pain was more tolerable than the dull pain from the abscess.

 

[russ_watters]

Another important reason to learn about similes and metaphors (skip to the last minute...or don't, if you need to be educated on the concept of irony):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg

Warning, there may be profanity in the act, but I'm not sure as I'm not fluent in Irish.

 

[WannabeNewton]

LOL that man is bloody brilliant! You know what should be mandatory? A class on acquiring an Irish accent because I am in love with their accents. I'm tired of my NYC accent.

 

[Astronuc]

LOL that man is bloody brilliant! You know what should be mandatory? A class on acquiring an Irish accent because I am in love with their accents. I'm tired of my NYC accent.

Here you go!

http://physics.tcd.ie/

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/

 

[WannabeNewton]

Here you go!

http://physics.tcd.ie/

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/

I am forever in your debt sir. Now if only I can find a way to get in.

 

[Astronuc]

I am forever in your debt sir. Now if only I can find a way to get in.

Grad school. I think you have an even chance of getting in.

 

[FreeMitya]

The country is so disgustingly level, the revelry of the place so monotonous, the studies of the University so uninteresting, so much matter of fact--none but dryheaded calculating angular little gentlemen can take much delight in a √+ba-b+c+d-e [. . .] etc., etc., 'Logarithms Involution and Evolution, properties of curvelines resuming Series, Indeterminate Analysis, Method of Increments' do not they look annihilatingly barbarous? 'There is no pleasure like proof' cries the Mathematician. I reverse it, 'There is no proof like pleasure.'

That is from one of Tennyson's letters to his aunt. Now, I don't fully agree with his sentiments as I want to study astrophysics and maths in university, and I think they're delightful, but I'm also a defender of studying literature on top of the actual English language in English classes. I thought that an alternative perspective from a highly regarded poet might work to add some perspective to this discussion.

 

[mheslep]

...I'm tired of my NYC accent.

Fagetaboutit, then no more accent.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm not sure how it is in your education system but when I was in school (English school system) English lessons were divided into English Langauge and English Literature. The former focuses on teaching writing, reading, rhetoric and has some interesting applications where things like advertisements are teased apart for what they are actually (or not actually) saying. English literature focuses on various works of literature and aims to improve students reading habits (through book reports and the such) as well as teaching the analytical skills we're all used to with literature.

As has been pointed out you can never know what is going to be useful for you and school is designed to give the most number of students the broadest education. Specialising comes with age. But don't be so quick to dismiss knowledge just because you can't see an immediate use for it in your chosen career. In my experience a career focused approach to learning is a stunted one that can cause harm in other areas of life. One of the best aspects of broad learning is the better socialisation skills it can give rise to. When you live your life being able to speak to many people about different things it can only improve your social skills, aid the transfer of knowledge and expose you to knew knowledge and ways of thinking that again you can never be sure how might help you.

Bottom line: don't restrict what you learn to what you want someone to pay you to do. Life is more interesting when you seek to limit your ignorance across the board.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm tired of my NYC accent.

Come live in South Jersey, the only place where people speak English without an accent.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Come live in South Jersey, the only place where people speak English without an accent.

Ah yes South Joisey. =D

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Ah yes South Joisey. =D

Joisey is a North Jerseyism.

 

[Evo]

Perhaps I missed it, but the obvious benefits from reading literature is the increase in vocabulary. As a child, I always had my dictionary next to me when I read. First I would try to figure out the meaning of a new word by the context, then I would check the dictionary.

Reading exposes you to new ideas. It allows you to explore different perspectives, gain a better understanding of the world around you. It makes you think. Even books I didn't like had some value. Classics teach you composition and how to put your thoughts down on paper so they sound intelligent, a skill which seems to be in decline. As someone pointed out, when you go to work, being able to compose reports, memos, or papers that are not painful to read will give you an edge over your less sophisticated peers.

Years of e-mails and internet posts have really taken a toll on my writing skills, but at the same time I think that years of reading poorly written online "journalism", blogs and text messages have had a mind numbing effect.

 

[jtbell]

Come live in South Jersey, the only place where people speak English without an accent.

I've never noticed any accent in Ohio. Of course, that may have something to do with my having grown up in Ohio.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Joisey is a North Jerseyism.

Which one is Jersey Shore located in :p

 

[FreeMitya]

Reading exposes you to new ideas. It allows you to explore different perspectives, gain a better understanding of the world around you. It makes you think. Even books I didn't like had some value. Classics teach you composition and how to put your thoughts down on paper so they sound intelligent, a skill which seems to be in decline. As someone pointed out, when you go to work, being able to compose reports, memos, or papers that are not painful to read will give you an edge over your less sophisticated peers.

Not to mention that it provides an emotional outlet. Great writers know what makes humans tick, and they express their knowledge in such creative and beautiful ways that I much prefer it to reading a neuroscience or psychology paper (though they certainly have their merits). How can anybody who's experienced loss not relate to In Memoriam, for example? Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but I honestly don't know where I'd be without my favourite writers. I've struggled with what I now think is neurosis for as long as I can remember, and if it weren't for the therapeutic benefits of my favourite verse and prose, I would be much worse off than I am now. Having a character with whom I can share in despair or anger or joy is extremely important to me, but this is probably making some laugh, so I'll stop.

Anyway, I try to keep an open mind, and one certainly does not have to read fiction to be intelligent, but the prospect that a great mind might abandon it makes me sad because I feel he/she is really missing a lot. I still think great writers are some of the smartest people in history, and it would be a shame for their wisdom to be forgotten. However, I fear I'm starting to sound like a melodramatic babbler.

 

[Tosh5457]

I don't know how it is in USA, but in Portugal in the 10th grade we choose the area we want (sciences, a mix of languages/social sciences, arts or economics). Though we all have the same class of Portuguese no matter what, which like OP I think it's ridiculous. Who goes to the Science area doesn't care for poetry, I learned absolutely nothing from it. You could argue that many people may learn, but I'd say there are much better ways to use that time (in other language skills as others have mentioned) than to interpret poetry. Besides that will affect grades, and someone who wants to study in the Sciences area shouldn't be evaluated for how he reads and interprets literature.

 

[turbo]

During my freshman year in engineering school, my honors adviser (professor emeritus of English lit) convinced me to major in English. It was a hard sell because English in HS was bland and boring due to out-dated materials and ill-prepared teachers. Still, he won me over. The study of language and literature was a lot more interesting than I had hoped.

I don't know how much English should be compulsory, but if it is taught by ill-prepared teachers using poorly-structured materials, it can be a waste of time. When I was 10, my parents bought a house (Yay!) and I had my own bedroom, which had been a walk-in closet. The previous owners had subscribed to cheap pulp versions of hardcover classics, so I got to read books by Dickens, Melville, Twain, Verne, and on and on that had been stored in my new room.

That was a better education in literature than I ever received in HS.

 

[FreeMitya]

During my freshman year in engineering school, my honors adviser (professor emeritus of English lit) convinced me to major in English. It was a hard sell because English in HS was bland and boring due to out-dated materials and ill-prepared teachers. Still, he won me over. The study of language and literature was a lot more interesting than I had hoped.

I don't know how much English should be compulsory, but if it is taught by ill-prepared teachers using poorly-structured materials, it can be a waste of time. When I was 10, my parents bought a house (Yay!) and I had my own bedroom, which had been a walk-in closet. The previous owners had subscribed to cheap pulp versions of hardcover classics, so I got to read books by Dickens, Melville, Twain, Verne, and on and on that had been stored in my new room.

That was a better education in literature than I ever received in HS.

I agree that independent study of literature has almost, if not as much merit as study in school, but like I've said before, if the teacher is good then there is a good chance that he/she has knowledge from years of studying various works and their authors that could really enhance a students understanding. The worst mistake a student can make is believing he/she does not need to be taught. In my opinion, it would be a travesty for a reader to pick up a challenging author like Faulkner or Joyce, read through, and put it down without any further reading or without being taught anything about the text, unless the reader is already highly educated, keen, and does not require teaching. However, I don't think many HS students are like that.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I agree that independent study of literature has almost, if not as much merit as study in school

I agree with this seeing as there isn't any measurable merit in the first place.

 

[FreeMitya]

I agree with this seeing as there isn't any measurable merit in the first place.

Based on what?

 

[WannabeNewton]

Based on what?

Based on the notion that studying literature and going on to write a PhD thesis in the subject is about as useful as majoring in enigmatology when it comes to utility. There's a difference between being a powerful author and trying to pick apart every mundane detail in that author's opus in order to make substance out of an otherwise empty vessel

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Based on the notion that studying literature and going on to write a PhD thesis in the subject is about as useful as majoring in enigmatology when it comes to utility. There's a difference between being a powerful author and trying to pick apart every mundane detail in that author's opus in order to make substance out of an otherwise empty vessel

Riiiiiight. Because the analysis of literature has never helped people explore new ideas and ways of thinking, nor discuss important issues that are difficult to talk about honestly do you see no advantage to things like feminist literally critique and how it can inform and help discussion on the role gender plays in society (used as an example from recently meeting someone who does just that).