- #36
dkotschessaa
- 1,060
- 783
I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.
-Dave K
-Dave K
dkotschessaa said:I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.
-Dave K
Speaking as a mentor here, if a new member (say 0 to 10 or 20 posts) posts a question that shows no effort (and typically without using the homework template), the usual practice is to give the poster a warning (0 points) that goes away after a couple of weeks. Most of us have a boilerplate message that encourages them to repost their question with some indication of an effort or something that indicates they have given some thought to the problem. If I get to the thread after another member has responded, I will usually leave the thread in place, but otherwise I'll delete the thread.jackmell said:Well arildno, I'm a little disappointed you're so unsympathetic to this matter with a "just let them drown" attitude. Sometimes they really don't have a clue I believe, no thoughts, no relevant equations, no pin-points, no nothing. But if we could just give them a nudge, just get them over the top, past the critical point, they might blossom!
jackmell said:I know I'm right about this matter and would hope one day PF could relax the rules a bit.
dkotschessaa said:I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.
-Dave K
Mech_Engineer said:This is a terrbile title for a thread- it tells us nothing about what is being asked.
...
I wanted to note that you actually didn't have no idea. You identified what you found difficult — that you have trouble with proofs — and you asked for a specific type of help. Contrast your post with that of a calculus student who's been asked to calculate the derivative of x2 using the definition, who provides no relevant equations, and who simply claims "I have no clue where to start."Pranav-Arora said:Please don't attribute this to laziness. As a frequent poster in homework help section, I do have sometimes "no idea" to begin with but that doesn't mean I am being lazy. For instance, I posted the following thread yesterday:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=716088
After the hints, I did take the time to post my complete attempt. I hope you don't call that laziness.
I've heard that from a number of members, actually typing it out allowed them to see what they were doing wrong, or had forgotten.dkotschessaa said:I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.
-Dave K
arildno said:"I just don't understand why someone needing help would not furnish as much information as possible"
I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.
Those with LOW self-esteem will then feel better about posting just a "please help", rather than show how "dumb" they had been.
--------------------------
My experience at PF is that these students, WHEN PUSHED (say, through "What are your thoughts?" or "Show what you've done so far!") actually will give, in a hesitant manner, their attempts. Then, the thread will be going just fine.
The lazy ones just get annoyed at such promptings/demands, or won't respond any further, and that's fine by me.
But this is where pointing them to Vela's thread can help them learn that it's not only OK to show their mistakes here, but it's actually GOOD, and maybe get some self esteem in the process when being open and honest is looked upon positively instead of just avoiding the elephant in the room. Maybe that's why they're having problems, they're afraid to ask questions. It's ok to prompt the student to furnish the required information, but what shouldn't happen is that help is given without first pointing out that more information is needed from them, that's not teaching them about how to get help in the future, it just reinforces that slacking off, or being afraid to admit they don't understand will get them results anyway. I see pointing them to the rules as helping them in the real world, after school they aren't likely to succeed if they have to be constantly spoon fed and led.arildno said:"I just don't understand why someone needing help would not furnish as much information as possible"
I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.
All excellent suggestions. We do have prompts with the template when they start a thread, Astronuc posted what they see here https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4536300&postcount=27arildno said:"It's ok to prompt the student to furnish the required information, but what shouldn't happen is that help is given without first pointing out that more information is needed from them"
--------
I totally agree with this, evo!
Perhaps vela's points could be included in a sort of popup-window when registering, like "Do you feel you don't have an idea how to solve the problem at hand?"
Or, when starting a thread, such an option automatically pops up, in order to reassure those who feel ashamed of their own "dumbness" that it really IS better that they try their best to explain their quandary and what they have done so far, than saying "I have no idea!".
------
After all, THOSE students (those primarily hampered by own feelings of inadequacy, rather than by the wish to be given an answer on a silver platter) will probably read it, the lazy ones won't, so we get a selection effect here.
LOL...BAD! :tongue:Office_Shredder said:That specific sentence will probably result in people saying "I don't understand how to solve this problem" :tongue:
(substitute member for students in this quote)arildno said:I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.
Borek said:[how to do math image]
AlephZero said:Some people still manage to get their HW done for them without making any effort ...
Lack of knowledge is not what is being discussed.shaltera said:“Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today.”
Vanadium 50 said:Please report such posts.
phinds said:Up to now I have reported any post I noticed where the OP made no effort to show any kind of work and in one set of words or another said "I have no idea how to do this".
BUT ... I noticed today that 2 or 3 posts were of exactly that type and yet moderators had responded to them. Have the rules changed or been relaxed or what?
Borek said:Can you show which ones? I guess it could be a temporary lack of vigilance.