Exterminate a spider in the bathroom

[gerben]

I simply do not see how people in places where no dangerous snakes or spiders live (like Norway) would be afraid of them because of 'environmental components'. What would those components be?

 

[gerben]

"Most people"?
Who are these "most"?
Practically no one I know of personally have any fears of spiders at all!

It is a very common fear. Many people fear spiders.

 

[gerben]

Besides, apart from Moonbear and hypatia's stories, there are other natural occurring ways this might develop:
Suppose a child is sleeping with the window open, and then suddenly wakes up because a spider is crawling on its face.
Wouldn't you think that would give the child a momentary SHOCK?

I do not think this happens often enough.
(and it would also still be surprising that a spider would be shocking but a leaf would not)

 

[arildno]

You do not "think", you just "assume", can't you just see that you haven't got a SINGLE PIECE OF SOLID EVIDENCE for your statements here??

They are just simplistic, and that's why you're holding on to them.

Moonbear's stories, my own example, and Hypatia's are 3 of MYRIADS OF WAYS IN WHICH THIS CAN DEVELOP, but you choose to cling onto a simplistic theory WHICH DOES NOT DO JUSTICE TO FACTS.
It is simply unscientific.

 

[gerben]

It is not more simple than asumming that we learn to fear spiders. It is quite unlikely that all those people that fear spiders have learned this from others.
(I already told you that I think the example you offer and the personal stories of hypathia and moonbear could only explain a small number of people fearing spiders.)

 

[arildno]

No, you're dead wrong.
If you want to argue scientifically for a strong genetic component of spiders, there are some minimum requirements which should be fullfilled:
1) Spider fear runs in families
As I've said, I have seen no indication of this.
As you of course know, 1) is only a necessary requirement for this; we need controls so as to eliminate possible environmental issues.
If spider fears seem to pop up in a wholly random fashion, unrelated to blood-lines, this is a crystal-clear indication that spider fear does NOT have a DOMINANT genetic factor in it.
We can conclude that without needing to set up other hypotheses.

If 1) isn't working, you're in big trouble.

If, however, you can show that:
2) There seems to be a strong instinctive fear among other animals for spiders, then we have scientific evidence that there probably is SOME genetic influence in the evolution of spider fear, even if we are not justified in saying it is a dominant factor.

If neither 1) or 2) holds, the whole idea can be dismissed from a scientific point of view.

 

[gerben]

Firstly, who says neither 1 nor 2 hold? And secondly, they do not necessarily have to hold.
(a1)Traits that are determined by or genes may posses just as much variation within families than between families, particularly traits that depend on the interaction of multiple genes.
(a2) Much happened after the time that this fear was (presumably) adaptive and different species develop differently. For example, we have hardly anybody hair in comparison to most monkeys yet this is certainly determined genetically.

There just has to be some reason we fear them, if it is not coming from our genes it must be coming from outside influences. I think you will agree with that (and personality is also a combination of those two influences, it is not a third one). I find the outside influence unlikely and therefore go for the genetic predisposition. The simple fact that many people fear a spider the first time they see one suggest that it is innate.

 

[Evo]

The simple fact that many people fear a spider the first time they see one suggest that it is innate.

This is not a fact gerben. Just the opposite, a baby/small child is very likely to try to pick up and even place a spider in it's mouth if someone does not prevent them from doing so. They have no fear of spiders until they "learn" that they are not good by being told so.

 

[gerben]

Okay, I agree. However very small children may not have developped that fear yet. I just do not believe that all people that fear spiders have been told so... but, of course, I do not know this for a fact.
(with snakes it seems even more unlikely you learn this when living in a city)

 

[arildno]

Firstly, who says neither 1 nor 2 hold?

No such studies have ever confirmed either, as far as I know.

And secondly, they do not necessarily have to hold.

(a1)Traits that are determined by or genes may posses just as much variation within families than between families, particularly traits that depend on the interaction of multiple genes.
(a2) Much happened after the time that this fear was (presumably) adaptive and different species develop differently. For example, we have hardly anybody hair in comparison to most monkeys yet this is certainly determined genetically.

Sheer fantasy justifications.
If 1) or 2) doesn't hold, the proper scientific procedure would be to register and classify the various evolution paths of fear of spiders (as clarified through close questioning, for example), without making any a priori, spurious assumptions as you do here.

 

[arildno]

It is not more simple than asumming that we learn to fear spiders. It is quite unlikely that all those people that fear spiders have learned this from others.

Look at what you write here: "learn from others".
That shows that you haven't been able to regard "nurture" as anything else than "teaching". This is simply wrong.

 

[Paul Wilson]

Hypathia - "I think its common sense to fear things that have been known to bite WITH venom."

Venom has no huge play in my fear of spiders, I'm not entirely sure what does. But it is for the reason of monsterous spiders the size of wheels that contain venom, I am never ever going to go Australia. I fear that place for its spider size!

~~

Evo - "Perhaps you are thinking more along the lines of instincts for self preservation. We automatically respond to anything that could potentially harm us. How much of this response is in relation to what we have learned to be dangerous or what we might "know" to be dangerous without being taught is an interesting question."

I believe what you have just said as being true. Immagine someone born into a white room with a light. Nothing else. He is kept in sensory deprevation for 15 years and on his 15th birthday allowed to go outside on his own -- With a knife. I believe that a) The person will be mentally derranged due to lack of social development, and b) The person will not harm another human being with that knife or anything else even tho he has not been taught not to. Why? Because we are all born with initiative, incentive, and I can't remember the word I was to use now meaning 'Knowing what to do with something naturally'. The person would not harm anyone because that person knows (by default?) that doing so is wrong. I don't believe I back away from a spider because it is dangerous to my health, I back away because it's black, it's got gargantuate legs, and it stays still (Yes, its motionless scares me - it psychs me out like "It's just sitting there, it's clearly not afraid of me yet I am terrafied of it") and when it does move I will be moving about 30x faster than it -- in the opposite direction.

~~

Personally I believe the fear of spiders to be influencial from others. As mentioned before, in different cultures *Egypt was a prime example with the whole, spider in a newly weds bed for good luck!* In different cultures spiders are looked upon differently. In Egypt and Africa spiders are concidered of a "high species" if you will. Yet in more developed countries. *Britian, America, etc* spiders are feared. Why is it that different cultures look at it differently? This question will only arise if the cultural difference is prominent enough. Clearly it is. There was an excellent law I heard of, and it ment "In the presence of many different theories - the simpilest one is usually correct" I can't for the life of me remember what it was *I heard it in Dan Brown's Deception Point* but I think it applies here.

 

[arildno]

Paul Wilson: You are probably thinking of Occam's Razor.

 

[gerben]

Sheer fantasy justifications.
If 1) or 2) doesn't hold, the proper scientific procedure would be to register and classify the various evolution paths of fear of spiders (as clarified through close questioning, for example), without making any a priori, spurious assumptions as you do here.

I was not making assumptions. I just gave you two examples of why I think that your criteria are too strict.

Look at what you write here: "learn from others".
That shows that you haven't been able to regard "nurture" as anything else than "teaching". This is simply wrong.

Come on, you know I do not think that.
I have made it overly clear that I think that it is more nature than nurture.
As I said in pots #13: "...with "nurture" all influences from experiences are meant..."

You seem to favor nurture as the prime cause, my first problem with that view is that I do not see why people would learn to fear spiders (Why do we not learn to fear other harmless things) and my second problem is that I think that there are many people who fear spiders who have never learned this.

________
Family factors:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s914237.htm

This is a line from the mentioned article:
"...Interestingly, fear conditioning is more easily acquired and less readily extinguished with evolutionarily fear-relevant (snakes and spiders) than fear-irrelevant (circles and triangles) stimuli."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12860774

From an earlier article:
"...CONCLUSIONS: Panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, phobias, and OCD all have significant familial aggregation..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&list_uids=11578982&dopt=Abstract

 

[Paul Wilson]

Paul Wilson: You are probably thinking of Occam's Razor.

I don't think that's it. I'll do some hard googling and try and find it.

EDIT: Got it. The 'Law of parsimony'

 

[hitssquad]

Occam's Razor is the law of parsimony, Paul.

 

[Paul Wilson]

lol, my mistake. It was earlier today when I just woke up and posted that. Blame drousiness. :p

 

[hitssquad]

lol, my mistake. It was earlier today when I just woke up and posted that. Blame drousiness. :p

Well, that sounds like it's probably the simplest explanation.

 

[Evo]

Family factors:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s914237.htm

This is a line from the mentioned article:
"...Interestingly, fear conditioning is more easily acquired and less readily extinguished with evolutionarily fear-relevant (snakes and spiders) than fear-irrelevant (circles and triangles) stimuli."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12860774

From an earlier article:
"...CONCLUSIONS: Panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, phobias, and OCD all have significant familial aggregation..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&list_uids=11578982&dopt=Abstract

Gerben, what these are saying is that there may be a genetic predisposition for people to be more prone to developing fears, phobias, anxiety, etc... I would agree with that. They are not saying that people can have a genetic fear specifically of a certain type of creature. They aren't saying people can be born able to recognize spiders.

You seem to favor nurture as the prime cause, my first problem with that view is that I do not see why people would learn to fear spiders (Why do we not learn to fear other harmless things)

Some spiders can be potentially lethal, or at least do significant harm. There are very few spiders that fall into this category however. Remember though, phobias are not based upon "normal" or "rational" fears. Most people that are afraid of spiders aren't afraid of the harm they will do, they are more just grossed out by them.

 

[gerben]

Gerben, what these are saying is that there may be a genetic predisposition for people to be more prone to developing fears, phobias, anxiety, etc... I would agree with that. They are not saying that people can have a genetic fear specifically of a certain type of creature. They aren't saying people can be born able to recognize spiders.

I do not think people can be born able to recognize spiders, the visual and cognitive abilities would not be developed enough and babies do not fear them, but the fear develops. Is this because of innate genetic factors or because of experience?

I fully agree that there is no definite answer to this question and that the links are not offering an answer to our discussion (I posted those links because arildno finds it important that there should be some aggregation in families. I do not find that crucial, but it can nonetheless support the idea.) I am just explaining my current believes on this issue and I would be pleased to see some good arguments that may change them. To me Davey’s arguments (post #15) of the fear being the result from an association between spiders and illness raises the question “why spiders, and not something else”. I would think, probably because we have this inborn suspicion against spiders. I do not refute the historical data indicating that the two were associated, but I do not think that that is the reason for the fear they arouse in people today. I think that people in the tenth century also feared spiders and therefore associated them with the, at that time, unexplainable illnesses.

Some spiders can be potentially lethal, or at least do significant harm. There are very few spiders that fall into this category however. Remember though, phobias are not based upon "normal" or "rational" fears. Most people that are afraid of spiders aren't afraid of the harm they will do, they are more just grossed out by them.

Yes, that was one of my points: people fear them and yet they are harmless (mostly). So it seems strange that you would learn this (as I said in post #49: "Why do we not learn to fear other harmless things"). People are just grossed out by them, without knowing why. Perhaps they do not know why because it is not something they have learned, but something they are born with. Just like you do not know why you have brown eyes. In both cases there is nothing in your memory that you can point to and say: “that is what has done it”.

People are never phobic of cars or knives not even after they have been harmed by one in an accident. But a phobia for spiders is quite common, so I think this is somehow built into humans, not in every specimen but in the species. It may be thinning out slowly, but it is still there.

 

[gschjetne]

I did read an article in some Illustrated Sciences magazine in Norway, and it did present a theory about some specific area in the brain that identifies potentially dangerous things, and makes you jumpy.

I myself don't have any problems with spiders. On the contrary, I enjoy having them in my house so they can eat flies and mosquitos, and I find it interesting having them crawl on my hands so I can get a good look at them. I would never think about hurting a domestic spider, and if they are in the way I always try to put them on a shelf or something. I once even had one fall in my dinner plate, which I first I found pretty amusing (it was a big sucker too), but I got a bit worried with all the sauce it got on itself. I rescued it and put it in some corner of the house.

Snakes tend to make me a bit hesitant until I can identify the species (only viper is dangerous in Norway) and then I always want to have a closer look.

In general I pay both great respect and interest in basically all little critters except flies and mosquitos.

But I have on phobia, though: emetophobia, fear of vomit. Whenever someone barfs (which tends to happen when people of my age gets drunk at parties) I just freak out and run away.

My mom, who's teaching psychology at a college in Norway, can tell me humans have a built-in fear of potentially unhygienic, or dangerous situations, but our best judgment usually overrides the basic instinct. In the few cases it doesn't we end up developing some phobia.