What's the most complicated circuit you know?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of circuits and their complexity. The speakers mention different types of circuits, including RF amplifiers, mixers, oscillators, and more. They also discuss the idea of circuits being made up of smaller blocks that can be analyzed individually. The conversation also touches upon magnetic amplifiers and their comeback in feedback elements of switching power supplies. Finally, the speakers bring up the concept of chaotic circuits and their usefulness.
  • #1
fbs7
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By that I mean a circuit that can't be broken into separate blocks that... err... do something by themselves.

For example, one can get a pretty lengthy circuit consisting of an RF amplifier / mixer / oscillator / IF amplifier / FM demodulator / audio amplifier / power amplifier / etc... but these are really individual blocks joined in together, which many times can be used for other unrelated applications (as that same power amplifier can amplify a PC audio output).

So, while a FM radio may be a complicated little thingie, it is built out of smaller blocks that, once identified, can be analyzed one by one. I'm talking about those building blocks themselves... what's the most complicated one you know of?

For that I nominate the cubic-function generator by Cipriani and Takeshian from Conexant:

http://www.google.de/patents?id=oS4GAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Anything else can beat that?
 
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  • #2
self-saturating magnetic amplifier
 
  • #3
Having formerly worked for a test equipment manufacturer, my list is quite long.
 
  • #4
jim hardy said:
self-saturating magnetic amplifier

You have a sample of that circuit?
 
  • #5
How do you determine how much complicated a circuit is ?
 
  • #6
fbs7 said:
You have a sample of that circuit?

i might have physical one laying amongst my junk, and i have two books on them

newer book is 1954 by Willaim A Geyger, "Magnetic Amplifier Circuits"

older has sumberged amid the chaos... it was around 1940

to my considerable surprise they are making a comeback as feedback elements in switching power supplies !
to me they were the best for ultra-reliable critical low frequency applications like our emergency diesel voltage regulators. ( never trust a computer with anything important )

they still defy precise mathematical analysis because of the nonlinearity of magnetics.

here's a nostalgic writeup..

http://www.themeasuringsystemofthegods.com/magnetic%20amplifiers.pdf [Broken]
 
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  • #7
All circuits that displays chaotic behavior, at least 2-D, are really beyond deterministic modeling. They can be numerically simulated, that is all.
 
  • #8
Kholdstare said:
How do you determine how much complicated a circuit is ?


Each can use their own criteria.. this is not an exact thread - it's just curiosity :)
 
  • #9
jim hardy said:
i might have physical one laying amongst my junk, and i have two books on them

...etc...


Wow, that's fascinating stuff.

I have to admit, perhaps I may have heard something about this in college, but if I did I forgot everything. I don't remember anything about "magnetic amplifiers".

Thank you, Jim.
 
  • #10
fbs7 said:
Each can use their own criteria.. this is not an exact thread - it's just curiosity :)

Haha, yes.

Well I'll suggest 10 Transistor SRAM cell.
 
  • #11
jim hardy said:
i might have physical one laying amongst my junk, and i have two books on them

newer book is 1954 by Willaim A Geyger, "Magnetic Amplifier Circuits"

older has sumberged amid the chaos... it was around 1940

to my considerable surprise they are making a comeback as feedback elements in switching power supplies !
to me they were the best for ultra-reliable critical low frequency applications like our emergency diesel voltage regulators. ( never trust a computer with anything important )

they still defy precise mathematical analysis because of the nonlinearity of magnetics.

here's a nostalgic writeup..

http://www.themeasuringsystemofthegods.com/magnetic%20amplifiers.pdf [Broken]

Its some wonderful stuff. But interference might be a problem here.
 
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  • #12
Also PTAT bandgap reference circuits.
 
  • #13
Kholdstare said:
Haha, yes.

Well I'll suggest 10 Transistor SRAM cell.

I can do better.

A single bipolar transistor common emitter amplifier...with a damaged junction.

It displays mind-boggling complexity (chaos), if one tries to study the output as a function of the input.
 
  • #14
jim hardy said:
i might have physical one laying amongst my junk, and i have two books on them

newer book is 1954 by Willaim A Geyger, "Magnetic Amplifier Circuits"

older has sumberged amid the chaos... it was around 1940

to my considerable surprise they are making a comeback as feedback elements in switching power supplies !
to me they were the best for ultra-reliable critical low frequency applications like our emergency diesel voltage regulators. ( never trust a computer with anything important )

they still defy precise mathematical analysis because of the nonlinearity of magnetics.

here's a nostalgic writeup..

http://www.themeasuringsystemofthegods.com/magnetic%20amplifiers.pdf [Broken]

Old Jim, Thanks for the Mag Amp pdf document! I read it over with great memories...I adjusted the Mag Amps on the AN/APQ-72 Fire Control Radar in the F-4B Phantom. (1963) They were used in a servo-control loop of the hydraulically actuated parabolic radar antenna. They were extremely sensitive to adjust. An ordinary metal screwdriver coming near to them would affect their output. We finally learned to use wooden "orange sticks" to set them. The complexity of their theory of operation is more than I could ever digest or understand.
 
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  • #15
Physineer said:
All circuits that displays chaotic behavior, at least 2-D, are really beyond deterministic modeling. They can be numerically simulated, that is all.


That's a fair point, but what's the function of a circuit that is chaotic and can't be modeled or predicted? Besides generating a chaotic and unpredictable signal, that is?
 
  • #16
fbs7 and phys -- - i think that's why life is lived forward and understood backward.

"I have never been able to think things out. I have to live them out, thinking as i go along." eric hoffer
 
  • #17
http://www.electrical-picture.com/bandgap-voltage-reference-circuits/ [Broken]

http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,24,00.html [Broken]

Some bandgap references. Have fun "thinking". :wink: :smile:
 
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  • #18
fbs7 said:
That's a fair point, but what's the function of a circuit that is chaotic and can't be modeled or predicted? Besides generating a chaotic and unpredictable signal, that is?

Some circuits have "regions" in their parameter space where they are chaotic and very useful (unless you want to for example generate noise), but might exhibit predictable (using numerical methods) behaviour elsewhere.
Certain types of parametric amplifiers would presumably be an example, especially bifurcation amplifiers.
 
  • #19
f95toli said:
Some circuits have "regions" in their parameter space where they are chaotic and very useful (unless you want to for example generate noise), but might exhibit predictable (using numerical methods) behaviour elsewhere.
Certain types of parametric amplifiers would presumably be an example, especially bifurcation amplifiers.

Yeah! But, does not the nonlinearity of the amplifier belong to the nonlinearity of a single device?
 
  • #20
fbs7 said:
That's a fair point, but what's the function of a circuit that is chaotic and can't be modeled or predicted? Besides generating a chaotic and unpredictable signal, that is?

Encryption.

Pass a signal through a chaotic circuit and as long as the inverse chaotic behavior can by synthesized (like the key) the original signal can be recovered. Research has found chaotic circuits with inverses.
 
  • #21
The regenerative receiver? That's an amazingly subtle circuit. And just think, Armstrong did it as a hobby and without benefit of an oscilloscope!
 
  • #23
Mike_In_Plano said:
The regenerative receiver? That's an amazingly subtle circuit. And just think, Armstrong did it as a hobby and without benefit of an oscilloscope!

The more I hear about E. H. Armstrong, he earns my respect. Probably the most excellent radio engineer of his time. Yet he had to commit suicide from the legal tussle with RCA.

Here's one regenerative receiver:
http://www.techlib.com/electronics/regen.html
 
  • #24
  • #25
Kholdstare said:
The more I hear about E. H. Armstrong, he earns my respect. Probably the most excellent radio engineer of his time. Yet he had to commit suicide from the legal tussle with RCA.

Here's one regenerative receiver:
http://www.techlib.com/electronics/regen.html

keep eyes peeled in junkshops. sometimes you run across one of Armstrong's old console radios with FM band down around 40mhz.

RCA got FCC to lay television band right on top of him wiping him out.
interesting, not too unlike the GPS- LTE cellphone haggle going on today.
 
  • #26
jim hardy said:
i might have physical one laying amongst my junk, and i have two books on them

newer book is 1954 by Willaim A Geyger, "Magnetic Amplifier Circuits"

older has sumberged amid the chaos... it was around 1940

to my considerable surprise they are making a comeback as feedback elements in switching power supplies !
to me they were the best for ultra-reliable critical low frequency applications like our emergency diesel voltage regulators. ( never trust a computer with anything important )

they still defy precise mathematical analysis because of the nonlinearity of magnetics.

here's a nostalgic writeup..

http://www.themeasuringsystemofthegods.com/magnetic%20amplifiers.pdf [Broken]

That's pretty cool, I had no idea they exist. Is this similar to how the core of AC motors sometimes have "core windings" on them to control the amount of flux into the motor windings, and therefore the speed of the motor?
 
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  • #27
The main clock recovery and sync circuit on this device. http://www.jproc.ca/crypto/kwr37.html
The circuit diagrams are still classified secret. Everything was custom hand-made with special boards or cards to generate special test signals to trace bad boards or modules.

Former Navy crypto tech 1970s.
 
  • #28
fbs7 said:
By that I mean a circuit that can't be broken into separate blocks that... err... do something by themselves.

. . . . . .

For that I nominate the cubic-function generator by Cipriani and Takeshian from Conexant:

http://www.google.de/patents?id=oS4GAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Anything else can beat that?

I might suggest the Internet?
 
  • #29
sophiecentaur said:
I might suggest the Internet?

Does not function as a single irreducible block. :cool:
 
  • #30
""I might suggest the Internet?""

wait'll it becomes sentient. we'll need a whole new field of psychology.
 
  • #31
Kholdstare said:
Does not function as a single irreducible block. :cool:

When you say it's not irreducible, could you not just say it is built with a high level of redundancy and fault tolerance? Could it not be looked upon as an entity?

jim hardy said:
""I might suggest the Internet?""

wait'll it becomes sentient. we'll need a whole new field of psychology.

Isn't is 'sentient" already (with the help of all its acolites)?
 
  • #32
Isn't is 'sentient" already (with the help of all its acolites)?

now that you ask, it does seem so. Milton's Beezlebub ?
 
  • #33

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1. What makes a circuit complicated?

A circuit is considered complicated when it has multiple components and connections that require precise calculations and careful design to function properly.

2. Can you give an example of a complicated circuit?

One example of a complicated circuit is a microprocessor, which contains hundreds of thousands of transistors and requires precise timing and complex programming to function.

3. What factors contribute to the complexity of a circuit?

The number of components, the type and complexity of the components, the number of connections, and the precision and accuracy required for the circuit to function all contribute to its complexity.

4. How do you design a complicated circuit?

Designing a complicated circuit involves careful planning, precise calculations, and extensive testing. It also requires knowledge of circuit theory, electrical engineering principles, and the specific components being used.

5. Why is it important to understand complicated circuits?

Understanding complicated circuits is important because they are the building blocks of modern technology. They are used in everything from smartphones to spacecraft, and a thorough understanding of them is crucial for innovation and advancement in various fields.

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