First victim of moon base/Mars mission?

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In summary, it has been decided to abandon the Hubble telescope due to its age and the upcoming launch of the James Webb Space Telescope. The decision has been influenced by President Bush's new space initiative, which calls for NASA to focus on developing spacecrafts for voyages to the moon and Mars. This decision has been met with disappointment, as Hubble has greatly advanced the study of astronomy. There has been discussion about the possibility of building telescopes on the moon, but it is uncertain if they would be more effective than Earth-orbit telescopes. However, it is noted that with a developed human presence on the moon, large telescopes could potentially be built on the far side of the moon with no interference from earthglow or reflected
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  • #2
The decision to abandon Hubble was made some time ago. Nothing to do with the manned space program, it is because the tellescope has already outlived its projected lifespan, and its replacement is on the way, the James Web Space Tellescope, or JWST.

Should be a great advance! But I must say, I don't agree with the plans to deorbit Hubble before JWST gets started. I agree that we should stop repairs, since they are getting way to expensive, bvut I think we should just let it remain orbital for now. Once the JWST is in orbit and functioning, then we can deorbit Hubble; it's niot going anywhere. And if something should go wrong with the Web (perish the thought, but accidents do happen), then we go do the repairs we left undone and continue to use the Hubble.
 
  • #3
Note that if the President's Mars iniative gets passed by Congress, there won't be any followon telescope. All the money for unmanned programs would be funnelled into the Mars thing.
 
  • #4
Perhaps the ending of Hubble had already been made but nontheless it would be disappointing to see it go.

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
Note that if the President's Mars iniative gets passed by Congress, there won't be any followon telescope. All the money for unmanned programs would be funnelled into the Mars thing.
Would that mean that any possible mission to Pluto (the Pluto-Kuiper Express) would be shelved as well?
 
  • #5
NASA canceled all space shuttle servicing missions to the Hubble, which has revolutionized the study of astronomy with its striking images of the universe.

John Grunsfeld, NASA's chief scientist, said NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe made the decision to cancel the fifth space shuttle service mission to the Hubble when it became clear there was not enough time to conduct it before the shuttle is retired. The servicing mission was considered essential to enable the orbiting telescope to continue to operate.

"This is a sad day," said Grunsfeld, but he said the decision "is the best thing for the space community."

He said the decision was influenced by President Bush's new space initiative, which calls for NASA to start developing the spacecraft and equipment for voyages to the moon and later to Mars. The president's plan also called for the space shuttle to be retired by 2010. Virtually all of the shuttle's remaining flights would be used to complete construction of the International Space Station.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/16/tech/main593826.shtml
 
  • #6
Originally posted by selfAdjoint
Note that if the President's Mars iniative gets passed by Congress, there won't be any followon telescope. All the money for unmanned programs would be funnelled into the Mars thing.

The JWST has been cancelled? That would be a shame, I had not heard about that. Where did you hear it?
 
  • #7
Could Moon-based telescopes be more effective than Earth-orbit telescopes?
 
  • #8
I don't think so. It may be possible to build bigger telescopes on the moon, but the bigger they are the bigger the risk of being hit by meteors.
 
  • #9
Originally posted by Loren Booda
Could Moon-based telescopes be more effective than Earth-orbit telescopes?
Enourmously given the moons near absent atmosphere...the Earth's atmosphere is so dense that it causes objects in the viewfinders of telescopes to appear to be "twinkling", it's a bit like looking through the rising heat off of a desert floor...the Moon has none of that, very, VERY little atmosphere, much better for observation the Earth based...don't know just how comparable to 'space based' though...
 
  • #10
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Enourmously given the moons near absent atmosphere...the Earth's atmosphere is so dense that it causes objects in the viewfinders of telescopes to appear to be "twinkling", it's a bit like looking through the rising heat off of a desert floor...the Moon has none of that, very, VERY little atmosphere, much better for observation the Earth based...don't know just how comparable to 'space based' though...
The main advantage of placing a telescope in space is to detect EM that is absorbed by the atmosphere, from gammas to UV, then IR to microwave. In the NIR and FIR there is also the advantage of being able to cool the scope better, so making the job of accounting for the radiation from the scope itself easier.

Better resolution is a good thing, but with the latest adaptive optics systems at the large Earth-bound observatories (including 'artificial stars'), space-based telescopes like Hubble may no longer be a cost-effective choice.
Loren Booda wrote: Could Moon-based telescopes be more effective than Earth-orbit telescopes?
I can't see how they could be; 'free space' is a better location in every respect.
SelfAdjoint wrote: Note that if the President's Mars iniative gets passed by Congress, there won't be any followon telescope. All the money for unmanned programs would be funnelled into the Mars thing.
Although no one has said anything about changing budgets and plans for missions already underway or in the pipeline, the depressing history of manned spaceflight leads one almost inevitably to conclude, as SA says, that just about ALL other NASA missions will be canceled - JWST, Pluto-Kuiper Express, even GLAST .

[Edit: removed text more appropriate to Politics and World Affairs]
 
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  • #11
The question was about Moon based telescopes vs. Earth-orbit telescopes like Hubble.

I think that with a thoroughly developed human presence on the moon, very large telescopes (light gravity, stable underpinning) could be built on the side of the Moon opposite to the Earth ("Privolva" in Kepler's term). With no earthglow or reflected light to interfere, these telescopes would be better than anything we can build now, either on Earth or in orbit.

I want to emphasize that we don't want to place a settlement on the far side of the Moon until the settlements on the near side are fully developed. They would have to support the astronomers, and communications around the Moons limb would be vital.
 
  • #12
Originally posted by Nereid
... I can't see how they could be; 'free space' is a better location in every respect...

Although no one has said anything about changing budgets and plans for missions already underway or in the pipeline, the depressing history of manned spaceflight leads one almost inevitably to conclude, as SA says, that just about ALL other NASA missions will be canceled - JWST, Pluto-Kuiper Express, even GLAST .

Nereid, agree 100 percent
stationing humans on moon a bad scientific investment strategy
with potentially terrible consequences for the
scientifically productive side of the space program

why put telescopes down in the lunar well when they
work so much better in orbit
(including solar orbit like WMAP)
and when it is so costly just to get down into, and back out of, the well.

Originally posted by Nereid
...SelfAdjoint also mentioned Karl Rove (in another post); I just read up on him - given that

a) this is an election year in the US,

b) that Texas and Florida are important to the Republicans,

c) the Bush Mars initiative should bring in lots of votes for that party in those states,

d) there was no advance signaling of this initiative,

e) Bush has shown no interest in science or space before, and

f) the Mars initiative will not be funded out of any Bush budget (it will come later)

- it's hard to see this as anything but a deeply cynical move ...

Six good points and a conclusion. Yes deeply cynical unless (what is worse) the advisors feel morally justified in trashing any and all Federal programs including space-based science if it can help maintain them in power, because they believe the sacred agenda (of dismantling government and making its body-parts into businesses run for-profit) transcends all other concerns whether of health care, environment, prosperity, international harmony, or science.

Someone who is blindly self-righteous may not even know that he or she is acting cynically.
 
  • #13
Really good points, for "Politics and World Affairs"...wouldn't lunar based be easier to repair then space based?
 
  • #14
why put telescopes down in the lunar well when they
work so much better in orbit
(including solar orbit like WMAP)
and when it is so costly just to get down into, and back out of, the well.


The lunar gravity well is trivial. That long ago astronaut golf shot almost went into orbit. The reason given for the Hubble demise is that it costs a billion bucks a run to maintain it with the shuttle. Think over the economics a little more.
 
  • #15
SelfAdjoint raises a good point about support etc; if there were good support on the Moon, then the economics may be more favourable.
 
  • #16
Here's a recent article on the subject of lunar astronomical observatories:

Does the Lunar Surface Still Offer Value As a Site for Astronomical Observatories? by Daniel F. Lester, Harold W. Yorke, and John C. Mather

Here's the abstract:

Current thinking about the Moon as a destination has revitalized interest in lunar astronomical observatories. Once seen by a large scientific community as a highly enabling site, the dramatic improvement in capabilities for free-space observatories prompts reevaluation of this interest. Whereas the lunar surface offers huge performance advantages for astronomy over terrestrial sites, free-space locales such as Earth orbit or Lagrange points offer performance that is superior to what could be achieved on the Moon. While astronomy from the Moon may be cost effective once infrastructure is there, it is in many respects no longer clearly enabling compared to free-space.
 
  • #17
If they (probes) could be "Made on the Moon" then the launching would be cheaper, if the fuel is available, as the gravity...
 
  • #18
The infrastructure needed for 'Made in the Moon' probes would be considerable, and quite costly in terms of time and resources (fantasies like 'nanotech' aside). Like just about all manufacturing, it'd likely end up as a hybrid - some done on site, some shipped from the Earth; final assembly in space?
 
  • #19
Originally posted by Nereid
The infrastructure needed for 'Made in the Moon' probes would be considerable, and quite costly in terms of time and resources (fantasies like 'nanotech' aside). Like just about all manufacturing, it'd likely end up as a hybrid - some done on site, some shipped from the Earth; final assembly in space?
Forgive me why would you assemble in space when you can assemble in a Low G environment where people can carry enormous weights around like toys?

"Made on the Moon" simply requires the 'Keystone' trades for process assembly, materials should be local, energy source, small scale manufacturing is quite efficient, make atmosphere, make water, how difficult is it?
 
  • #20
The last satellite 'factory' that I toured wasn't all that small, and it seemed to have an awful lot of specialist equipment (little or none of which was made on site). The components came from all over ... the world. IIRC, big astronomy and solar system probes have one contractor for the project management and assembly (under a science director?), but dozens of sub-contractors, including university labs for some of the specialist instruments.

As any country which has toyed with autarky has found to its cost, self-sufficiency is very, very costly. So any Moon-based facility would still have a heavy reliance on Earth.

If the costs of getting into Earth orbit can't be reduced by at least a factor of 100, economics would suggest that a Moon base would make the 'heavy' components of any probe/observatory, and get just the 'light' ones - such as software, design, detectors - from Earth.

Space assembly may be attractive with good robots (humans are no good, even on the Earth); there's an awful lot of mechanical stress involved in launching an object, even from the Moon.
 
  • #21
Originally posted by Nereid
The last satellite 'factory' that I toured wasn't all that small, and it seemed to have an awful lot of specialist equipment (little or none of which was made on site). The components came from all over ... the world. IIRC, big astronomy and solar system probes have one contractor for the project management and assembly (under a science director?), but dozens of sub-contractors, including university labs for some of the specialist instruments.
As any country which has toyed with autarky has found to its cost, self-sufficiency is very, very costly. So any Moon-based facility would still have a heavy reliance on Earth.
If the costs of getting into Earth orbit can't be reduced by at least a factor of 100, economics would suggest that a Moon base would make the 'heavy' components of any probe/observatory, and get just the 'light' ones - such as software, design, detectors - from Earth.
Space assembly may be attractive with good robots (humans are no good, even on the Earth); there's an awful lot of mechanical stress involved in launching an object, even from the Moon.
Probably because Satellites aren't made in Factories, and most of the rest of what you speak of is research, which can be done/'perfected' here on Earth, beamed to the Lunar base for replication, much simpler, and less expensive...

As for the 'stresses' of launching, well, you are choosing (STRESSING) Human construction in space over launch from low Moon G?
 
  • #22
Mr Parsons wrote: Probably because Satellites aren't made in Factories, and most of the rest of what you speak of is research, which can be done/'perfected' here on Earth, beamed to the Lunar base for replication, much simpler, and less expensive...
Er, just about all astronomical observatories - on the ground as well as in space - and space science probes are one-offs; the satellites which get made in factories are GPS, Iridium, communications GEOsats (sure each one is different, but AFAIK they're made from kits, like your Toyota), etc.

Besides, how do you beam a satellite to the Lunar base for replication (other than in the fantasy world of nanotech)? Where did the Lunar base machines which do the replicating come from?
 
  • #23
Goodness, know much about "Materials Sciences" know what gets made out of 'rocks' now, know what can be made out of "rocks"?...as I said, got water, and air, and the rest is maybe not as difficult as you seem to think, remote control mining systems currently exist here on the planet, so smelting? or steel/metals processing? machining? (Where did those molds go, you know the styrofoam ones??) assembly? where in the process is the sign of difficulty other then the obvious of why need any kind of mass prodction of satellites, they are "one'offs" for a reason...but past the "thought process" the rest is somewhat less portable, or re-establishable, technologies, but still do-able...
 
  • #24
I was wondering about the viability of maintaining a long-term human presence on the Lunar surface from a health aspect. It seems to me residents would have to be provided with a large centrifuge in which to live and/or work. Each person would spend several hours a day (not sleeping hours, but hours when they are standing, walking, etc.) under a simulated Earth-normal gravitational pull. This should orevent a lot of the health problems of long-term exposure to low-g.
 
  • #25
Originally posted by LURCH
I was wondering about the viability of maintaining a long-term human presence on the Lunar surface from a health aspect. It seems to me residents would have to be provided with a large centrifuge in which to live and/or work. Each person would spend several hours a day (not sleeping hours, but hours when they are standing, walking, etc.) under a simulated Earth-normal gravitational pull. This should orevent a lot of the health problems of long-term exposure to low-g.
Don't forget the radiation dose from cosmic rays ...
 

1. What causes the first victim of a moon base/Mars mission?

The first victim of a moon base/Mars mission is most likely caused by accidents or equipment failures. Astronauts are trained extensively to handle emergencies, but there is always a risk involved in space exploration.

2. How do astronauts handle medical emergencies in space?

Astronauts are trained in basic medical procedures and are equipped with medical kits on space missions. In case of a medical emergency, they can communicate with doctors on Earth for guidance and assistance. They also have access to telemedicine technology to receive real-time medical advice.

3. What are the safety protocols in place to prevent accidents in space?

Before a mission, astronauts undergo rigorous training and simulations to prepare for potential emergencies. Spacecrafts and equipment are also thoroughly tested and inspected before launch. During the mission, astronauts follow strict safety protocols and regularly check and maintain equipment to prevent accidents.

4. What is the role of psychological health in space missions?

Psychological health is crucial in space missions as astronauts are often in confined and isolated environments for extended periods. They undergo extensive psychological evaluations before and during the mission to ensure their mental well-being. Additionally, they have access to support from psychologists and other mental health professionals.

5. How are astronauts trained to handle the psychological effects of losing a crew member?

Astronauts undergo training to prepare for the possibility of losing a crew member. They are trained to handle grief and support each other emotionally. They also have access to psychological support from professionals on Earth. Additionally, astronauts undergo debriefings after the mission to help them process any traumatic events.

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