Are guys growing up fast enough? Should they?

  • Thread starter Greg Bernhardt
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In summary, this article discusses the phenomena of men delaying stereotypical "man" duties and attitude for later in life. Men who won't commit, enjoy playing xbox into the wee hours and have week old pizza on the counter are described. The author argues that this trend is a reflection of our cultural uncertainty about the social role of men and the disappearance of the qualities men used to need to play their roles. The author also argues that this trend is causing problems for women, as they are left with the responsibility for providing for themselves and their families.
  • #1
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There is a fantastic article at WSJ that explores the phenomena where men are generally delaying stereotypical "man" duties and attitude for later in life. Men who won't commit, enjoy playing xbox into the wee hours and have week old pizza on the counter. I would certainly admit I am closer to that description than the classic male portrayal of the first half of the 20th century.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704409004576146321725889448.html

I think she nailed the article, but I'm not convinced it's a bad thing. We're definitely seeing people wait to get married and have children. I am in that group and love it! But I can see how it is creating problems when women still have that clock. I know first hand from several lady friends that there is that pressure and it ends up making them husband hunt in their late twenties.
 
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  • #2
Hah ha! That's funny. I'm the opposite. I've been trying to settle down since I was 23 (I'm 25 now). I bought a home, and I have a steady career. I've been learning to build and fix things, and I just want to get an early start on the rest of my life.
 
  • #3
One passage near the end I found especially interesting:

What explains this puerile shallowness? I see it as an expression of our cultural uncertainty about the social role of men. It's been an almost universal rule of civilization that girls became women simply by reaching physical maturity, but boys had to pass a test. They needed to demonstrate courage, physical prowess or mastery of the necessary skills. The goal was to prove their competence as protectors and providers. Today, however, with women moving ahead in our advanced economy, husbands and fathers are now optional, and the qualities of character men once needed to play their roles—fortitude, stoicism, courage, fidelity—are obsolete, even a little embarrassing.

I had a discussion the other day with a friend who thought that modern life was slowly causing men to go insane...it's too easy.
 
  • #4
I was 29 and 32 when I had my children. My girls are 23 and 26 and I can't even imagine either of them settling down to have children for the next 10 years, if ever. They don't seem to want children, which is fine with me. I didn't want children and I don't want grand children.
 
  • #5
I had to pull birthday calculator once again to find my age, I just reached 23 (I am 23 years, 24 days old).

I am quite uncertain about my future. I don't know what/where I will be next year and the year after. I have no plans for future when it comes to my life.
 
  • #6
i think that one thing that is happening is that we are not as brainwashed into having a certain type of existence, as we once were.

we are becoming aware that we don't have to get married by 21, and start having kids, etc.

this gives us more freedom, but it also gives us less stability, in that our lives are not as cookie cutter as they once were.

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.
 
  • #7
Physics-Learner said:
i think that one thing that is happening is that we are not as brainwashed into having a certain type of existence, as we once were.

we are becoming aware that we don't have to get married by 21, and start having kids, etc.

this gives us more freedom, but it also gives us less stability, in that our lives are not as cookie cutter as they once were.

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

Good points. Funny thing about freedom...having a *lot* of choices (like we do) doesn't always make a person happier.
 
  • #8
no, it doesnt, does it ?

i think freedom is a good thing, but i also think that we got too much of it too quickly, such that we have not yet adapted to it.

but that could be said for a lot of things, in that human beings tend to need time to make changes.

when i was younger, i was a type a personality, with all sorts of goals in mind. the typical kinds of graduating from school, going to college, getting a degree, getting a job, buying a house, etc.

well i did all that stuff at an earlier age than average. and i held off having a family, until (quite accidentally) i realized i didnt have to have a family.

now i like peace and quiet and stability and uncomplications. and on the other hand, i am affectionate and like someone to hug and hold.

those 2 lifestyles don't exist together - LOL.

so i have absolutely no goal, and no longer have the certainty of god and heaven to cling to.

and while i am not exactly happy about it, i am coming to terms with it, and just trying to let things happen as they happen.
 
  • #9
Physics-Learner said:
which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

Interesting discussion. Modern life rewards people who take an entreprenurial approach to life - having ideas, taking risks, being skilled at networking and attracting a following. It is being said that the future of work is the mini-preneur. A portfolio approach where people have a number of losely connected jobs, contract work, small ventures. And a lot of it can arise out of hobbies and personal interests. Also more a continuous education and self-education approach. So very different.

The downside is that for most, the entreprenurial results will be a small scale success - a career-let (or portfolio of them), that could be mistaken for dabbling, but is just the small tail phenomenon. In an openly expanding economic system, success becomes distributed according to a powerlaw (and so the vast majority of those "successfully being entrepreneurs" are down at the tail end of the distribution). But this is cool as the lifestyle is still fun and earns enough to get by.

Of course, this does not fit the traditional male role stereotype. Or so people might say. But then again, think medieval or renaissance towns, or more ancient trading cities like Miletes. There might be something of the same homespun, find your own niche, create your own trade/craft feel to it. Well, not to stretch the analogy, but the idea of "male" does seem different if you think about silversmiths, weavers, etc.

See this list of 200 essential trades in a Victorian town and consider how perhaps some of this is about a transition in the world of work from the 20th century mass production model to a 21st internet driven entreprenurial craft economy (perhaps).

http://transitionculture.org/2009/0...required-to-make-a-victorian-town-functional/
 
  • #10
Physics-Learner said:
i think that one thing that is happening is that we are not as brainwashed into having a certain type of existence, as we once were.

we are becoming aware that we don't have to get married by 21, and start having kids, etc.

this gives us more freedom, but it also gives us less stability, in that our lives are not as cookie cutter as they once were.

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

I don't work to take a direction, opportunities come by, I either take them or discard them. It's quite simple.
 
  • #11
rootX said:
I don't work to take a direction, opportunities come by, I either take them or discard them. It's quite simple.

But what if you have dozens (or more) opportunities facing you all at the same time? It can be overwhelming.
 
  • #12
lisab said:
But what if you have dozens (or more) opportunities facing you all at the same time? It can be overwhelming.

I have been in those times and I use my instincts to make decisions. I believe more in doing best in what you choose than making a best choice.
 
  • #13
rootX said:
I have been in those times and I use my instincts to make decisions. I believe more in doing best in what you choose than making a best choice.

That's good to be comfortable with being decisive. The important thing is to not dwell on the choices you didn't make. But, in my experience, that gets a lot harder with age :wink:.
 
  • #14
That was perhaps the longest article I have ever read which contained absolutely no substance. The Wall Street Journal outdone themselves.
 
  • #15
I find nowadays that people want to "live their life". When I say this I mean that people want to do things like travel, do specific hobbies, start businesses, get a PhD and so on and that they would rather defer the responsibility of being a father and putting their resources purely into their family.

I'm the same and I don't blame other people who share these views. There is just so much out there to experience in my mind, and quite frankly I want to take advantage of what we have in the 21st century and not be bogged down with worrying about a family.

I think another thing apart from the above is that it is a lot more expensive to have a family nowadays and I am assuming that people that want to have children and have the best opportunities wait until the right time so that their children do get the best options in the parents view.

Problem is that every generation grows up for the most part very comfortably and they generally want to party for just a little bit longer having the good life.
 
  • #16
lisab said:
That's good to be comfortable with being decisive. The important thing is to not dwell on the choices you didn't make. But, in my experience, that gets a lot harder with age :wink:.

Yep older we get, harder it gets to undo our decisions.

But, I think life can be very hard for people who spend too much energy in coming up with a best decision. I know (young and old) people who literally get paralyzed by uncertainty and freedom. Most of the times, they end up in circles.
 
  • #17
a very interesting development in myself has caused me to wonder a lot.

and this thread seems to be proof that others are in that same boat.

and that is that we have all been talking about ourselves in terms of "what we do" or "what we accomplish".

and the thing that has been going on in my mind for the past 5 years or so, is that perhaps what i am experiencing is a journey of what we should be doing.

learning to understand ourselves at a more basic, but deeper level. not as what we do, but who we are ? and in order to do so, we need to remove the cloak of goals and what we do.

if i ever figure it out, i will let you know - LOL.
 
  • #18
lisab said:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who thought that modern life was slowly causing men to go insane...it's too easy.

And perhaps she is right, at least partially. We live in a world where the more feminist magazines encourage men to get in such with their sensible feminine sides (yeah right, like a man has any feminine side whatsoever), where male kids engaging in rough and tumble play are labeled as violent and problem kids, where a male trowing a punch is considered a psychopath, where the smallest bruise on a kid is a catastrophe and where physical activity is frowned upon by legions of fat slobs.
 
  • #19
DanP said:
And perhaps she is right, at least partially. We live in a world where the more feminist magazines encourage men to get in such with their sensible feminine sides (yeah right, like a man has any feminine side whatsoever), where male kids engaging in rough and tumble play are labeled as violent and problem kids, where a male trowing a punch is considered a psychopath, where the smallest bruise on a kid is a catastrophe and where physical activity is frowned upon by legions of fat slobs.

Ah, So !

And where we employ labor saving devices (cars, etc) to go to labor inducing devices (gyms).

The world has gone mad, in this sense. Maybe it's natures way of sorting out the gene pool !
 
  • #20
I can't stop thinking what Hymowitz lusts for in a man. This phrase:

American men have been struggling with finding an acceptable adult identity since at least the mid-19th century.

seems to indicate she misses the frontier man. the one who pushed the envelope of civilization into the west. Nathaniel "Natty" Bumppo like maybe.

“And Natty, what sort of white man is he? Why, he is a man with a gun. He is a killer, a slayer. Patient and gentle as he is, he is a slayer. Self-effacing, self-forgetting, still he is a killer. . . All the other stuff, the love, the democracy, the floundering into lust, is a sort of by-play. The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

— D. H. Lawrence, Studies in Classic American Literature (1923)

Does she wants him back ? Do you girls want him back or would rather settle for one of the many incarnations of Charlie Sheen ? Would you rather have me play X-box or own a gun and disperse my energy at shooting practice ? Waste time in bars and drinks or taking a combat sport to eliminate the surplus of energy? Come home then insist that our 7 years old should come with me next time, start some some jiu-jitsu, learn how to fight. Or you would simply want me with no gun, no x-box, no drinks, just an elegant two legged reproductive machine which brings money at home ? The melted domesticated animal or the soul which never yet melted, with all the advantages and the tones of disadvantages it brings in your life ?
 
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  • #21
DanP said:
Does she wants him back ? Do you girls want him back or would rather settle for one of the many incarnations of Charlie Sheen ?

Charlie is slowly killing both himself and his career :D
 
  • #22
Greg Bernhardt said:
Charlie is slowly killing both himself and his career :D

He does, but still I find him one of the best comedians. He did a great job in "Two and a half men". A role which fit him like a glove :P

Anyway, women should get it. It's either my gun, either my X-box. So decide if you want me with the Xbor or with the gun. Or next Ill get asked for my "balls" as well. Men need more things than simply getting married and raising kids. And surely women need more as well, but I can't possibly speak for them.
 
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  • #23
DanP said:
He does, but still I find him one of the best comedians. He did a great job in "Two and a half men". A role which fit him like a glove :P

Anyway, women should get it. It's either my gun, either my X-box. So decide if you want me with the Xbor or with the gun. Or next Ill get asked for my "balls" as well. Men need more things than simply getting married and raising kids. And surely women need more as well, but I can't possibly speak for them.

But why don't men who need this just do it on their own? Why do they need women's approval - are they in need of a mommy to tell them what their lifestyle should be?

And btw, I think a lot of men would be much happier if they took your advice. I think a lot of women would be, too.
 
  • #24
I had to laugh out loud a little when I read this article. When I met my wife, I was singing (growling) in a punk band, living in a house with my band that was little more than a tenement house, working 3 jobs and going to college. Guess what, when we weren't at the bar next door, we were playing playstation and drinking beer... I was very rough around the edges. So, I was very much everything this article was about.

Guess what, I still play some Xbox. I have fun doing, sometimes it is frustrating. But there is nothing like beating frustration with a perfect headshot in a video game. Does it annoy my wife about the video games? Sometimes, probably. She understands that she doesn't get it. Just like I understand that I don't get the whole idea about having 10 different purses. And why she just needs that new one in that great purple color. I never will. It is fine.

So what, I say. Why are these women so keen on settling down at this age? Is it a biological issue? I think the more likely story is social pressure. Some of these guys who are stuck in this new 20-something never-never land are going to grow up and some of them will do it soon. So what if they play Xbox.

Unless they care more about Xbox than the girl. And they won't is my guess. 20-something guys also want sex. A lot. Heterosexual men require women for that. Sex will win out over Xbox. Trust me on this one. My thoughts are that women just need to leverage sex. It is a good card to hold. Right or wrong, I think it is reality.

I don't know much about this whole notion of a "hook up" scene. So I cannot comment on that part.

Another solution for women facing this issue - date and possibly marry older men. Assuming older = the traits they want.
 
  • #25
lisab said:
But why don't men who need this just do it on their own? Why do they need women's approval - are they in need of a mommy to tell them what their lifestyle should be?
I think that most don't, and this is what frustrates some women. But I also think that it should not.

I think both men or woman should forget about strong archetypal description of sexes. Id say, be careful what you wish for. If you are dreaming the strong archetype of a men or a women, you'd should rather be prepared for what you are getting. Ppl of both sexes of this category are generally hard to handle in today's climate. They are difficult and demanding partners. Maybe not the best idea to get together with someone like this if you are not the same.

Id say, women don't need to complain about ppl playing X-box. If it annoys you, don't date him, find someone who works for you. I wouldn't consider some women as possible partners for me for reasons which others might find idiotic. But who cares. They are my reasons, and I don't get into a relationship to make a 3rd party happy. I get into a relationship to make myself happy and fulfilled in the first place, because it's the only state in which I can make my partner feel fulfilled. If I'm happy with her, Ill go to hell and back to make her happy or satisfy her whims. It might sound very egoistical, but its not. And I was always willing to negotiate some of our behaviors in the relationship. Take some, give some you know...

So it all boils down to the social exchange in the end. What you have to give and what you expect in exchange. If a women wants to settle down in her 20s, there are still enough more than willing to make the step.

In the end I still think men would be better off without X-boxes and computer games. Id say Himowitz is right with this. And I also think that parts of our society are pretty much idiotic, but as opposed to Himowitz i think is damaging to humans in general, not only to men. Women get the short stick also from this business too, not only men. Girls may not have X-boxes, but you get Oprah, series after series at TV and so on. And idling both at Xbox or at Oprah still makes you fat :P And no, its not more intelligent to waste time at Oprah than at Xbox. Still wasted time.
 
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  • #26
gosh - the immaturity of the species. no wonder people have such problems in relationships. they have much to learn.
 
  • #27
In the end I still think men would be better off without X-boxes and computer games.

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest in their place for the average 9-5er with 4hrs +/- 2hrs each evening (assuming 1 hour of daylight on average and a need to relax/unwind)?
 
  • #28
Zryn said:
Out of curiosity, what would you suggest in their place for the average 9-5er with 4hrs +/- 2hrs each evening (assuming 1 hour of daylight on average and a need to relax/unwind)?

2 things. Sports and some time spent with your SO when you both feel like it. Simple things. Games, walks , an evening with other friends, but in person , not online, and touching :P A lot of touching. (with your SO, not with all friends ). So what if you are 50 ? Walk hand in hand, she is still your woman.

About sports. There is nothing which up-regulates the human body like physical effort. You slowly become stronger, faster, more coordinated. Your head gets clearer, and IMO there is nothing (except medication) which keeps depression and anxiety at bay better. You cardio-vascular system is less exposed to decay. Look at the picture below. At the diameter of the arteries of those men. Which one do you want to be ?

NG%20Body1.jpg
 
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  • #29
Zryn said:
Out of curiosity, what would you suggest in their place for the average 9-5er with 4hrs +/- 2hrs each evening (assuming 1 hour of daylight on average and a need to relax/unwind)?
DanP said:
2 things. Sports and some time spent with your SO when you both feel like it. Simple things. Games, walks , an evening with other friends, but in person , not online, and touching :P A lot of touching. (with your SO, not with all friends ). So what if you are 50 ? Walk hand in hand, she is still your woman.

About sports. There is nothing which up-regulates the human body like physical effort. You slowly become stronger, faster, more coordinated. Your head gets clearer, and IMO there is nothing (except medication) which keeps depression and anxiety at bay better. You cardio-vascular system is less exposed to decay. Look at the picture below. At the diameter of the arteries of those men. Which one do you want to be ?

Agree 100%. Excellent advice, Dan. :approve:

I'd add that if one isn't into sports, then some amount of exercise is better than nothing. Join the local gym, learn to climb, cycle, run, etc.
 
  • #30
Dembadon said:
Agree 100%. Excellent advice, Dan. :approve:

I'd add that if one isn't into sports, then some amount of exercise is better than nothing. Join the local gym, learn to climb, cycle, run, etc.

If I may, I think the overwhelming take away from Dan and Don is that balance in a person's life is important. Everyone needs some exercise. For some, that may be sports of some kind. For others, that maybe something different-working out, hitting a heavy bag, hanging drywall, etc.

When it comes down to it, having any sort of hobby in addition to xbox or gaming is important to your overall well-being. The idea should be to satisfy your physical, mental, social and spiritual (e.g. religious) needs. This will make all your relationships better in my opinion. That doesn't mean you can't blow an hour on xbox on the weekend if you want.
 
  • #31
I think it's true that guys just are not that into a serious relationship/marriage at an early age. Guys are all about them and don't want a girl to get in the way of any of the plans. Maybe I'm just young and want something more that can't be rushed along, I know, but gosh guys... Give us what we want too lol.
 
  • #32
hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.
 
  • #33
Physics-Learner said:
hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.

That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.
 
  • #34
sometimes it can be hard to see the forest because of the trees.
 
  • #35
DanP said:
That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.

I assume he means socialized?
 
<h2>1. Are boys growing up faster today than in previous generations?</h2><p>There is no definitive answer to this question as it can vary based on individual experiences and cultural factors. Some studies suggest that boys today may be maturing physically earlier due to improved nutrition and healthcare, but there is no evidence that they are maturing emotionally or mentally at a faster rate.</p><h2>2. What are the potential consequences of boys growing up too quickly?</h2><p>Growing up too quickly can lead to a variety of negative consequences, such as increased stress and anxiety, difficulty forming healthy relationships, and a higher risk of engaging in risky behaviors. It can also limit their ability to fully develop important skills and coping mechanisms needed for adulthood.</p><h2>3. Is there a specific age at which boys should be considered "grown up"?</h2><p>No, there is no specific age at which boys should be considered "grown up." Development is a continuous process and individuals may reach milestones at different times. It is important to focus on individual growth and development rather than a specific age.</p><h2>4. What factors contribute to boys growing up too quickly?</h2><p>There are a variety of factors that can contribute to boys growing up too quickly, including societal pressure to conform to certain gender norms, exposure to media and technology, and family dynamics. It is important to address these factors and create a supportive environment for healthy development.</p><h2>5. Should boys be encouraged to grow up faster?</h2><p>No, boys should not be encouraged to grow up faster. It is important for individuals to have a healthy and balanced development at their own pace. Pushing boys to grow up faster can have negative consequences on their well-being and may hinder their ability to reach their full potential in adulthood.</p>

1. Are boys growing up faster today than in previous generations?

There is no definitive answer to this question as it can vary based on individual experiences and cultural factors. Some studies suggest that boys today may be maturing physically earlier due to improved nutrition and healthcare, but there is no evidence that they are maturing emotionally or mentally at a faster rate.

2. What are the potential consequences of boys growing up too quickly?

Growing up too quickly can lead to a variety of negative consequences, such as increased stress and anxiety, difficulty forming healthy relationships, and a higher risk of engaging in risky behaviors. It can also limit their ability to fully develop important skills and coping mechanisms needed for adulthood.

3. Is there a specific age at which boys should be considered "grown up"?

No, there is no specific age at which boys should be considered "grown up." Development is a continuous process and individuals may reach milestones at different times. It is important to focus on individual growth and development rather than a specific age.

4. What factors contribute to boys growing up too quickly?

There are a variety of factors that can contribute to boys growing up too quickly, including societal pressure to conform to certain gender norms, exposure to media and technology, and family dynamics. It is important to address these factors and create a supportive environment for healthy development.

5. Should boys be encouraged to grow up faster?

No, boys should not be encouraged to grow up faster. It is important for individuals to have a healthy and balanced development at their own pace. Pushing boys to grow up faster can have negative consequences on their well-being and may hinder their ability to reach their full potential in adulthood.

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