Eugene Wigner's take on math's role in the natural sciences #1

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In summary, the conversation discusses the surprising effectiveness of mathematics in describing natural phenomena and the use of mathematical concepts in seemingly unrelated fields. The example of using pi in population distribution is explained as a result of the normal distribution's requirement for total probability to equal one. The conversation also raises questions about the uniqueness of mathematical theories and the possibility of other forms of logic leading to different explanations for natural phenomena.
  • #1
absurdist
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I had this posted under the wrong field earlier until I realized it's an applied mathematics question

An excerpt from The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences
by Eugene Wigner
"There is a story about two friends, who were classmates in high school, talking about their
jobs. One of them became a statistician and was working on population trends. He showed a
reprint to his former classmate. The reprint started, as usual, with the Gaussian distribution
and the statistician explained to his former classmate the meaning of the symbols for the actual
population, for the average population, and so on. His classmate was a bit incredulous and was
not quite sure whether the statistician was pulling his leg. “How can you know that?” was
his query. “And what is this symbol here?” “Oh,” said the statistician, “this is pi.” “What
is that?” “The ratio of the circumference of the circle to its diameter.” “Well, now you are
pushing your joke too far,” said the classmate, “surely the population has nothing to do with
the circumference of the circle.” Naturally, we are inclined to smile about the simplicity of
the classmate’s approach. Nevertheless, when I heard this story, I had to admit to an eerie
feeling because, surely, the reaction of the classmate betrayed only plain common sense. I
was even more confused when, not many days later, someone came to me and expressed his
bewilderment2 with the fact that we make a rather narrow selection when choosing the data
on which we test our theories. “How do we know that, if we made a theory which focuses its
attention on phenomena we disregard and disregards some of the phenomena now commanding
our attention, that we could not build another theory which has little in common with the
present one but which, nevertheless, explains just as many phenomena as the present theory?”
It has to be admitted that we have no definite evidence that there is no such theory.
The preceding two stories illustrate the two main points which are the subjects of the present
discourse. The first point is that mathematical concepts turn up in entirely unexpected connections.
Moreover, they often permit an unexpectedly close and accurate description of the
phenomena in these connections. Secondly, just because of this circumstance, and because we
do not understand the reasons of their usefulness, we cannot know whether a theory formulated
in terms of mathematical concepts is uniquely appropriate. We are in a position similar to that
of a man who was provided with a bunch of keys and who, having to open several doors in succession,
always hit on the right key on the first or second trial. He became skeptical concerning
the uniqueness of the coordination between keys and doors."

So we don't understand why math works?

Also just curious what exactly does pi have to do with the population (distribution)?

LINK: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathD...ng/Wigner.html
 
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  • #2
Also just curious what exactly does pi have to do with the population (distribution)?
There are essentially two parts to the answer. First the population distribution is being approximated by the normal distribution. Second the normal distribution (like any probability distribution) has a requirement that the total probability be one. In order to get the total equal one for the normal distribution, π appears in the normalization constant.

Aside: your link didn't work for me.
 
  • #3
Sorry about that. I should've checked:
http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/reality_wigner.pdf

QUOTE=mathman;3842087]There are essentially two parts to the answer. First the population distribution is being approximated by the normal distribution. Second the normal distribution (like any probability distribution) has a requirement that the total probability be one. In order to get the total equal one for the normal distribution, π appears in the normalization constant.

How did the mathematician analytically come to the constant pi (apart from what you mentioned about the normal distribution assumptions)? Sorry if my question is too rudimentary.
 
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  • #4
absurdist said:
How did the mathematician analytically come to the constant pi (apart from what you mentioned about the normal distribution assumptions)? Sorry if my question is too rudimentary.

Almost all ancient mathematicians who concerned themselves with pi (I say almost because I'm not an expert on the subject and there might be exceptions) used the circle in some extent to approximate pi. Ratio of circumference to diameter. I believe Archimedes first approximated the value significantly by enclosing the circle in n-gons on the inside and outside and calculating those perimeters to give a range for pi.
 
  • #5
scurty said:
Almost all ancient mathematicians who concerned themselves with pi (I say almost because I'm not an expert on the subject and there might be exceptions) used the circle in some extent to approximate pi. Ratio of circumference to diameter. I believe Archimedes first approximated the value significantly by enclosing the circle in n-gons on the inside and outside and calculating those perimeters to give a range for pi.
I see so its the ratio, not a numerical value put in there, got it.
 
  • #6
absurdist said:
Sorry about that. I should've checked:
http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/reality_wigner.pdf

QUOTE=mathman;3842087]There are essentially two parts to the answer. First the population distribution is being approximated by the normal distribution. Second the normal distribution (like any probability distribution) has a requirement that the total probability be one. In order to get the total equal one for the normal distribution, π appears in the normalization constant.

How did the mathematician analytically come to the constant pi (apart from what you mentioned about the normal distribution assumptions)? Sorry if my question is too rudimentary.

The integrand for the standard normal distribution is of the form exp(-x2/2). The integral over the whole real line = √(2π). Since the integral has to be 1 (total probability), we need to divide the integrand by √(2π).
 
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  • #7
math started from totally common sense concepts, e.g., natural numbers, ,straight lines, etc. and gradually developed into totally unexpected concepts through logical reasoning. I guess the question is what is logic, and is there another set of logic that works as well as ours, and come up with different theories that explain as many different phenomena as ours.
 
  • #8
http://www.infoocean.info/avatar2.jpg There are essentially two parts to the answer.
 
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1. What is Eugene Wigner's take on math's role in the natural sciences?

Eugene Wigner, a Hungarian-American physicist and mathematician, believed that mathematics plays an important role in understanding and describing the natural world. He argued that the effectiveness of math in explaining physical phenomena is not just a coincidence, but rather a reflection of the underlying mathematical structure of the universe.

2. How did Wigner's views on math's role in science differ from other scientists?

Wigner's views were different from many other scientists at the time, as he believed that mathematics is not just a tool for describing the natural world, but rather a fundamental aspect of it. He also argued that the success and universality of mathematics in explaining physical phenomena is a mystery that should be further explored.

3. Can you give an example of Wigner's perspective on math in the natural sciences?

One of Wigner's famous examples is the application of complex numbers in quantum mechanics. He argued that the use of complex numbers is not just a convenient mathematical tool, but rather a fundamental aspect of the quantum world that we cannot fully explain using classical mathematics.

4. Did Wigner's views on math's role in science have any impact on the scientific community?

Wigner's views sparked debates and discussions among scientists about the relationship between math and the natural world. His ideas also influenced the development of new theories and approaches, such as the use of group theory in particle physics.

5. Are Wigner's views still relevant today?

Yes, Wigner's ideas are still relevant and widely studied today. His views have influenced fields such as mathematical physics, philosophy of science, and the foundations of mathematics. Many scientists continue to explore the deep connection between mathematics and the natural world, building on Wigner's insights.

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