Cannot stand the eternity in cyclic models

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of an eternal cyclic universe and the possibility of an infinite number of cosmological cycles. Some argue that an infinite past is not a problem and that it only becomes a problem when trying to impose colloquial notions of cause and effect. Others mention the Turok-Steinhardt model and the idea of an infinite number of rooms in Hilbert's Hotel. The conversation also brings up the philosophical question of eternity and the difficulty in understanding certain aspects of nature. Overall, there is no clear consensus on the topic and further research may be needed to fully understand the concept of an eternal cyclic universe.
  • #1
xponential
9
0
I have had this question for a long time and thought this forum might be the best place to answer..

If there is an infinite number of bangs happened before the big bang, our universe's bang should never have happened because it would require an endless number of bangs that -by definition- would never get covered all for ours to occur!
 
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  • #2
Maybe someone can explain it better but here is my take on it.

If you divide infinity in half it is still infinity. If this is a cyclic event that keeps happening over and over as it always has and will continue to do so, it is infinite. Think of it as there was no first big bang, they just always have happened. You can think about a million big bangs ago and still go a million more, you can do this until you go loony making up any large number you like, and there will still be just as many previous to the last one because they have always happened.
 
  • #3
Charmar said:
If you divide infinity in half it is still infinity. If this is a cyclic event that keeps happening over and over as it always has and will continue to do so, it is infinite. Think of it as there was no first big bang, they just always have happened. You can think about a million big bangs ago and still go a million more, you can do this until you go loony making up any large number you like, and there will still be just as many previous to the last one because they have always happened.

Are you implying there is no causation between a cycle and another? Are the future events already happened?

Do you know of a source that illustrates this idea? I searched for cyclic models but didn't find a clear explanation about eternity.
 
  • #4
you question is not clear. If an infinite number of cosmological cycles have already occurred, that does not preclude them from continuing.

Cyclic models do not explain eternity. Eternity is a philosophical question not in the realm of science. Cyclic models don't explain a 'first' bang nor a 'last' one.

There ARE causal connections between cycles in the Turok-Steinhardt model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
 
  • #5
Naty1 said:
If an infinite number of cosmological cycles have already occurred, that does not preclude them from continuing.

Cyclic models do not explain eternity. Eternity is a philosophical question not in the realm of science. Cyclic models don't explain a 'first' bang nor a 'last' one.

Cyclic models don't explain eternity but they imply it. I don't see how eternity is even naturally possible. If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.
 
  • #6
If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.

just not so.

That's a misconception.

So if you like one,single, unique, bang in all of 'history'...why should THAT have ever happened?? nobody knows.

there is much in nature that is difficult to understand.
see my signature...don't blame the physics...nor math...
 
  • #7
Look up Hilbert's Hotel ... it has an infinite number of rooms and they're all full, but you can always get in one more guest.
 
  • #8
phinds said:
Look up Hilbert's Hotel ... it has an infinite number of rooms and they're all full, but you can always get in one more guest.

Do you think he has vacancy tonight? I might need a place to stay.


Anyways, I believe it is a misconception to think that there cannot be individual bangs in an infinite cyclic model. In order for there to be an infinite cyclic model, you MUST have individual bangs occurring. Otherwise there would be no cycle.
 
  • #9
xponential said:
I have had this question for a long time and thought this forum might be the best place to answer..

If there is an infinite number of bangs happened before the big bang, our universe's bang should never have happened because it would require an endless number of bangs that -by definition- would never get covered all for ours to occur!
An infinite past is no more a problem than an infinite future. It only becomes a problem when you try to impose colloquial notions of cause and effect that exist nowhere in the fundamental physics.
 
  • #10
Drakkith said:
Do you think he has vacancy tonight? I might need a place to stay.

Wife kicked you out again, huh?
 
  • #11
xponential said:
Cyclic models don't explain eternity but they imply it. I don't see how eternity is even naturally possible. If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.
They had an infinite amount of time to happen in. You are still reasoning as if time had a beginning, after which infinitely many cycles occurred. In an eternal cyclic universe, there was no beginning to time. There are cycles before cycles before cycles, but there is no first cycle.
 
  • #12
xponential said:
Cyclic models don't explain eternity but they imply it. I don't see how eternity is even naturally possible. If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.

Where does a Universe-sized gorilla sleep? Wherever it wants to.
 
  • #13
Perhaps reviewing Cantor's theory of infinite sets would be instructive.
 
  • #14
phinds said:
Wife kicked you out again, huh?

Nonsense, I am not married. It was the cat this time. But wait, I don't own a cat...
 

1. What is a cyclic model in science?

A cyclic model is a cosmological model that suggests the universe goes through a series of cycles, with periods of expansion and contraction.

2. How does the concept of eternity apply to cyclic models?

In cyclic models, the universe is thought to exist eternally, going through an infinite number of cycles. This means that the universe has no beginning or end.

3. Why do some scientists have issues with the idea of eternity in cyclic models?

Some scientists have issues with the concept of eternity in cyclic models because it goes against the widely accepted theory of the Big Bang, which suggests the universe had a definite beginning.

4. What evidence supports the existence of cyclic models?

Currently, there is no concrete evidence that supports the idea of cyclic models. However, some scientists believe that the data from the cosmic microwave background radiation and the expansion rate of the universe could potentially support the existence of cyclic models.

5. How does the concept of eternity in cyclic models affect our understanding of the universe?

The concept of eternity in cyclic models challenges our current understanding of the universe and raises questions about the nature of time and the beginning of the universe. It also suggests the possibility of an infinite and ever-changing universe, which could have significant implications for future scientific discoveries and theories.

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