What does American mean to you?

[Anttech]

I think for instance that the average Irish-American is better off than the average Irish, etc.

And what are you basing that on? Have you been to Dublin recently? Are you aware of how wealthy Ireland has become? The Ireland that the Amercan-Irish moved away from is vastly different that Modern Ireland.

 

[Astronuc]

How about . . . .

spacious skies,

and amber waves of grain,

purple mountain majesties,

and fruited plains,

and its supposed to be crowned with brotherhood,

from sea to shining sea.


or

from redwood forests to the New York island,

from Canadian mountains and to Gulf Stream waters

 

[Moridin]

Q: What does America mean to me?

A: Not what it once did.

Wars sponsored by the United States isn't exactly a new phenomena. Before Iraq and Afghanistan, there were the NATO bombings in Serbia supported by the Clinton Admin, before that, the First Gulf War and ODS by George H. Bush, before that we have the Cold War, Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Korea, WWII and so on. For some reason, every single on of these has been criticized.

How exactly did your views on The United States change?

 

[grant9076]

"ehh, America America" *waves hands*

In Italy if you say that, it is like saying *Yeah right in your dreams* due to the fact once upon a time many many moons ago, America was the place everyone though was the land of opportunities, and new beginnings. That perception is been eroded away day by day

I grew up dirt poor (all of my clothes were hand me downs) in a third world country and a typical third world family, and I came to the USA with not much more than the clothes on my back.

Now I am a professional pilot that has traveled all over the world.

One of my brothers is a real estate millionaire.

Another of my brothers has his own successful business.

A third brother is a software engineer.

My sister is a business executive with her degree from Cornell.

My nephew (who grew up in the same household) is an orthopedic surgeon.

The reason IMHO is because we made use of opportunities in the USA that we simply do not have in our country of birth. BTW, of all the countries to which I have been, the USA is the one in which I would find it to be the most desirable to live.

 

[denverdoc]

I grew up dirt poor (all of my clothes were hand me downs) in a third world country and a typical third world family, and I came to the USA with not much more than the clothes on my back.

Now I am a professional pilot that has traveled all over the world.

One of my brothers is a real estate millionaire.

Another of my brothers has his own successful business.

A third brother is a software engineer.

My sister is a business executive with her degree from Cornell.

My nephew (who grew up in the same household) is an orthopedic surgeon.

The reason IMHO is because we made use of opportunities in the USA that we simply do not have in our country of birth. BTW, of all the countries to which I have been, the USA is the one in which I would find it to be the most desirable to live.

Thats a very inspirational story. I'd like to hear more details. I know there's a wealth of opportunity here still, but am perplexed why so few americans seem to be able to tap into it. Afraid of hard work/sacrifice? Too busy watching the tube or smoking dope? Curious,

 

[Gokul43201]

Well if you're suggesting that we're all getting richer, only some more so, or even at a rate proportonate to their original wealth is an overall acceptable goal, I might agree.

I said nothing about what makes an acceptable goal. I was only asking you about certain factual data. Furthermore, I believe that the upward trend in the concentration of wealth is not unique to the US (though it is possibly the fastest here) and that you will find it is true of many other developed countries (I know it's not true in France).

For instance, in the UK: http://www.ash.org.uk/html/health/html/inequalities_files/image010.jpg

(Nevermind that such a scenario is unlikely. I don't believe wealth can be created out of thin air. Somewhere there have to be at least potential losses, maybe far, far away or in the future or both.)

In economic theory, this isn't true, though if you are applying a more metaphorical connotation to the term 'wealth' there may be something there, and I don't have an opinion on that. But I agree that wealth isn't created out of thin air. It takes work to create wealth.

I do indeed believe the standard of living for many has fallen relative to 1960. Exactly at what percentile ranking, not sure.

When you say "many", do you still refer to a majority? For instance, ten million people could be considered "many", but certainly not a majority. I know that the income at the top of the lowest 20% has increased over the decades (though it's been stagnant these last 6 years), but I think I recall seeing data showing a decline for the lowest 1, 2 or 5%. I can't seem to find that anymore. But see, for instance, how the fractions of people up to the poverty line has increased over the last few decades. While this is the opposite of what one would like to see, it does not describe a majority of the population.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov5.html

Or perhaps it is close to the same or marginally better, but at what cost. Very few stay at home parents these days, longer hours/more jobs for many, fewer benefits, greater insecurity, increased homelessness--so I'd say at least the quality of life has dropped, if not the absolute standard of living.

Most of this is factually true, and the conclusion may very well be too. While I don't believe that a longer work week necessarily implies greater dissatisfaction with work conditions, I don't disagree that this might indeed be the case with the majority.

http://mchb.hrsa.gov/mchirc/chusa_04/pages/0310wm.htm
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_07072004
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~pgordon/pdf/commuting.pdf

In other words many people including a sizeable proportion of the folk I see, are running faster and faster to stay in place, and many are dropping dead from exhaustion. I trust this isn't your observation and I'm about to see a bunch of stats explaining how much better off than I was than my parents and grandparents.

I haven't been around long enough to make statistically significant observations, and I'm not trying to pick a fight here.

 

[denverdoc]

I said nothing about what makes an acceptable goal. I was only asking you about certain factual data. Furthermore, I believe that the upward trend in the concentration of wealth is not unique to the US (though it is possibly the fastest here) and that you will find it is true of many other developed countries (I know it's not true in France).

For instance, in the UK: http://www.ash.org.uk/html/health/html/inequalities_files/image010.jpg

In economic theory, this isn't true, though if you are applying a more metaphorical connotation to the term 'wealth' there may be something there, and I don't have an opinion on that. But I agree that wealth isn't created out of thin air. It takes work to create wealth.

When you say "many", do you still refer to a majority? For instance, ten million people could be considered "many", but certainly not a majority. I know that the income at the top of the lowest 20% has increased over the decades (though it's been stagnant these last 6 years), but I think I recall seeing data showing a decline for the lowest 1, 2 or 5%. I can't seem to find that anymore. But see, for instance, how the fractions of people up to the poverty line has increased over the last few decades. While this is the opposite of what one would like to see, it does not describe a majority of the population.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov5.html

Most of this is factually true, and the conclusion may very well be too. While I don't believe that a longer work week necessarily implies greater dissatisfaction with work conditions, I don't disagree that this might indeed be the case with the majority.

http://mchb.hrsa.gov/mchirc/chusa_04/pages/0310wm.htm
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_07072004
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~pgordon/pdf/commuting.pdf

I haven't been around long enough to make statistically significant observations, and I'm not trying to pick a fight here.

I will try to reply en bloc in order: You first raised the question if i understood it correctly, that is it possible to have an increasing stratification of wealth while the average or even everyone gets wealthier?

To this i suggested, sure, amd it might be even fair. You have a spectrum of differently sized black holes each sucking in matter in accordance with physics. Fine, space them far enuf apart and sufficient matter in between, each engorges itself with little interplay. Thats not the case, we live in close proximity competing for the same matter. Now a supernovea windfall blow by we all be happier than a pig in a trough. Sure there's a little more energy closer to home but it came from somewhere. Nor is this happening in only in the Milky Way, any reasonably sized galaxy operating under the same laws of physics/rules of econmy should show similar behavior. It only reinforces the validity of the original criticism.

and finally, many of us love our jobs more than anything else, but if I were pickin cotton and already had a tan, I think fewer hours be better.

For the record I love my job but it ceases to have the kind of pull it once exerted, I love physics, philosophy, mathematics, computer science and here I am selling prozac:grumpy:
Cheers,
J

 

[grant9076]

I know there's a wealth of opportunity here still, but am perplexed why so few americans seem to be able to tap into it. Afraid of hard work/sacrifice? Too busy watching the tube or smoking dope? Curious,

As you probably suspect, I believe that willingness to work is the dominant factor. What the USA promises is the freedom to make use of opportunity. There is nothing in the Constitution which promises success and there shouldn't be. It is for the same reason why a college course should not guarantee an A for every student regardless of study habits. We understood clearly that we had to earn everything that we get including the privilege to live in the US, but at least we had the opportunity. If we were still living in the West Indies, I would still be herding cattle through a field barefooted because we did not have friends in the right places.

 

[edward]

I grew up dirt poor (all of my clothes were hand me downs) in a third world country and a typical third world family, and I came to the USA with not much more than the clothes on my back.

Now I am a professional pilot that has traveled all over the world.

One of my brothers is a real estate millionaire.

Another of my brothers has his own successful business.

A third brother is a software engineer.

My sister is a business executive with her degree from Cornell.

My nephew (who grew up in the same household) is an orthopedic surgeon.

The reason IMHO is because we made use of opportunities in the USA that we simply do not have in our country of birth. BTW, of all the countries to which I have been, the USA is the one in which I would find it to be the most desirable to live.

I am presuming that you came here legally, and that is the crux of the alien situation, most of them do not. With our own educational system in trouble, We can not solve the social problems of Mexico and Central America by allowing millions of high school, and grade school drop outs to cross the border at will.

Sure we are getting cheap labor, but it is a pay now or pay later situation and in the end we will pay dearly. One small dip in the economy and we will have 15 million non English speaking illegals to care for.

Back on topic, I am old enough to see that we are no longer the America we once were. America peaked in the sixties, when moms could still stay home with the kids and families were still intact. It was strong family values and and strong families that brought us through wars and into the space age. Except for the wealthy, We are a shadow of what we once were.

I see people struggling with factory closings, ever increasing medical costs, outsourcing of the service economy that was supposed to be our new industry, and the lowest savings and highest debt rates in 70 years.

In years past we made it here and bought it here. The flood of cheap third world country consumer products into the USA only provides a faux sense of prosperity.

 

[Anttech]

I grew up dirt poor (all of my clothes were hand me downs) in a third world country and a typical third world family, and I came to the USA with not much more than the clothes on my back.

Now I am a professional pilot that has traveled all over the world.

One of my brothers is a real estate millionaire.

Another of my brothers has his own successful business.

A third brother is a software engineer.

My sister is a business executive with her degree from Cornell.

My nephew (who grew up in the same household) is an orthopedic surgeon.

You equally could have migrated to any Developed country and done the exact same thing. The perception throught the developed world of America has changed over the years, now it is not looked at as a shining example of how a country should be run. It is not the *land of oppertunity* it once was. In fact I know in my industry (IT/Telecoms) you will get paid better in Europe than in the USA, for an equal skillset.

Regardless Success is not measured by your bank ballance, and to think so, is as shallow as an environment which nurtures that ideal, IMHO

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In economic theory, this isn't true... But I agree that wealth isn't created out of thin air. It takes work to create wealth.

Could you give an example?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

And what are you basing that on? Have you been to Dublin recently? Are you aware of how wealthy Ireland has become? The Ireland that the Amercan-Irish moved away from is vastly different that Modern Ireland.

I'm basing it on this. I did not base my view of the national average by visiting the capital.
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_desc.php

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Wars sponsored by the United States isn't exactly a new phenomena. Before Iraq and Afghanistan, there were the NATO bombings in Serbia supported by the Clinton Admin, before that, the First Gulf War and ODS by George H. Bush, before that we have the Cold War, Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Korea, WWII and so on. For some reason, every single on of these has been criticized.

How exactly did your views on The United States change?

At least in the others you had some sort of competent leadership even if they were ultimately pointless and a colossal waste of human life for little gain excepting the first gulf war, there was wide public support in the UK for the first gulf war and it was UN supported, OK as always plenty of hippies and peace junkies, complaining, but the government was in the main supported. Now you have delusional fools, ok lame duck delusional fools, thank God for only two terms is all I can say. Do you know what I felt when GWB got into power, fear, for the first time in my life I was afraid for the world. I was more than vindicated.

 

[vanesch]

"American", to me, is an adjective that applies to all things related to a big landmass that goes from the polar circle up north to a point not very far from Antarctica, way south. On that landmass, there is also a very powerful nation amongst others, which adopts also that same adjective.

 

[vanesch]

Thats a very inspirational story. I'd like to hear more details. I know there's a wealth of opportunity here still, but am perplexed why so few americans seem to be able to tap into it. Afraid of hard work/sacrifice? Too busy watching the tube or smoking dope? Curious,

It seems that the US is a nation where immigrants can rise quite high on the social ladder. Many years ago, we had some B-film "Mr muscle" actor, and now he's a governor over there

 

[Astronuc]

Suit to Charge That Nursery Mistreated Laborers

Marvin Coto and 11 other Guatemalan men had legal work visas to enter the country to work in a program authorized by the federal government.

The 12 men were recruited in Guatemala and granted legal work visas to plant pine trees in North Carolina.

but

when they landed in Greensboro last spring, eager to work for promised wages of $7.50 an hour, a very different fate awaited them.

According to a lawsuit to be filed today in Federal District Court in Hartford by four Yale law students and their professors, the bewildered Guatemalans were packed into a van, driven to Connecticut and turned into a captive labor force for Imperial Nurseries, one of the nation’s major wholesalers of plants and shrubs.

The lawsuit charges that agents of Imperial Nurseries confiscated the men’s passports to prevent their escape, forced them to work nearly 80 hours a week for far less than minimum wage, denied them emergency medical care and threatened them with jail and deportation if they complained.

The lawsuit is among the first to seek civil damages under a 2003 provision of the federal laws against human trafficking, which added a right for victims to sue for compensation.

Monte B. Lake, a lawyer representing Imperial Nurseries and its publicly traded corporate parent company, Griffin Land and Nurseries, said in an e-mailed statement that although neither he nor the company had seen the complaint, “we are confident that the allegations will be found to be without merit, as against Griffin and its subsidiary.”

He added, “We expect the allegations to relate to the conduct of an independent farm labor contractor which was responsible for compensating its employees.”

The Yale law students, who were contacted through a Pentecostal church where one of the workers sought help, said Imperial Nurseries and its labor subcontractor, Pro Tree Forestry Services, were equally responsible for exploiting and defrauding the Guatemalans. Nor, they said, was it an isolated case.

From my experience, it is certainly not an isolated case.

 

[Anttech]

I'm basing it on this. I did not base my view of the national average by visiting the capital.
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_desc.php

I would suggest you don't base your facts on that :)

An ethinic group (Irish American) may or may not be equal to the national average. On top of that its from 2003, and is GDP which is an average national product, we all know that in America there is a huge gap between the rich and poor. So your figures are totally meanless in this context. So think as you may...

I think this also adds weight behind my suggestion of not basing your assumption on that "chart" (taken from your link)

** GDP dollar estimates for all countries are derived from purchasing power parity (PPP) calculations rather than from conversions at official currency exchange rates. The PPP method involves the use of standardized international dollar price weights, which are applied to the quantities of final goods and services produced in a given economy. The data derived from the PPP method provide the best available starting point for comparisons of economic strength and well-being between countries. The division of a GDP estimate in domestic currency by the corresponding PPP estimate in dollars gives the PPP conversion rate. Whereas PPP estimates for OECD countries are quite reliable, PPP estimates for developing countries are often rough approximations. Most of the GDP estimates are based on extrapolation of PPP numbers published by the UN International Comparison Program (UNICP) and by Professors Robert Summers and Alan Heston of the University of Pennsylvania and their colleagues. In contrast, the currency exchange rate method involves a variety of international and domestic financial forces that often have little relation to domestic output. In developing countries with weak currencies the exchange rate estimate of GDP in dollars is typically one-fourth to one-half the PPP estimate. Furthermore, exchange rates may suddenly go up or down by 10% or more because of market forces or official fiat whereas real output has remained unchanged. On 12 January 1994, for example, the 14 countries of the African Financial Community (whose currencies are tied to the French franc) devalued their currencies by 50%. This move, of course, did not cut the real output of these countries by half. One important caution: the proportion of, say, defense expenditures as a percentage of GDP in local currency accounts may differ substantially from the proportion when GDP accounts are expressed in PPP terms, as, for example, when an observer tries to estimate the dollar level of Russian or Japanese military expenditures. Note: the numbers for GDP and other economic data can not be chained together from successive volumes of the Factbook because of changes in the US dollar measuring rod, revisions of data by statistical agencies, use of new or different sources of information, and changes in national statistical methods and practices.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

An ethinic group (Irish American) may or may not be equal to the national average. On top of that its from 2003, and is GDP which is an average national product, we all know that in America there is a huge gap between the rich and poor.

You're reaching here.

 

[Anttech]

You're reaching here.

On the contrary, you are reaching. You are tryin to assert that an average Irish American is more weathy than an average Irishman. That is reaching, you have absolutely no proof of that! GDP is meaningless. Ireland is very wealthy, hell even by your own www sites admission it disregards the exchange rate. You stated your opinion without knowing enough about the economy of Ireland.

So who is reaching?

 

[denverdoc]

It seems that the US is a nation where immigrants can rise quite high on the social ladder. Many years ago, we had some B-film "Mr muscle" actor, and now he's a governor over there

Oh that guy. Whose family was very wealthy, IIRC. Actually I now have begrudging respect for the big Republican. And if history is any indicator, has a shot at being a two-timer White House occupant.

Speaking of which, how's the Hulk these days? And what is it with these musclemen anyway. Let's get some babes into office! No neither Hillary, Barbara, or Nancy qualify. I want someone like Paris.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And if history is any indicator, has a shot at being a two-timer White House occupant.

I would hope that even today we haven't sunk so low that we would change the Constitution just to get one man elected, no matter how wonderful he might be.

Sen Hatch would, but there you go. Know the enemy.

Ideally, if this did happen the electoral college would do its job and reject the popular vote.

 

[Gokul43201]

Could you give an example?

Okay, I have $0 and you have $0. Instead of sleeping all day, I walk down the lane, pick up a rock, and carve it into a statuette of "little green man". I sell you the statuette for $10. Now I have $10, and you have an asset worth $10. Total wealth to the amount of $20 has been created from a rock.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Where did I get the $10 to pay you? And the little man has no real value until someone pays me.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I had considered the idea of wealth created by digging for gold, but that is a matter of converting wealth from a resource to cash, so the wealth still isn't created, but the gold has value added by the work. It would be worth less in a land sale.

 

[grant9076]

You equally could have migrated to any Developed country and done the exact same thing.

That is simply not true. In Europe (and most other places), the prohibitively high up front costs and the lack of financial aid would have it made much more difficult (if not impossible) for me to get the training necessary to become a professional pilot. In addition, the very high taxes would make it extremely difficult for anyone who wants to start a business.

It is not the *land of oppertunity* it once was.

Companies like Microsoft, Macintosh, Dell, Scaled Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars were all started in sombody's basement or garage, dormitory or kitchen, or even from the back of someone's van. These are just a few of countless examples where a diligent person has the opportunity develop great things from a good idea. These are all compelling examples that are quite contrary to your assertion. Frankly, I would not be surprised if I found out that PF was started by a student or teacher with a good idea.

Regardless Success is not measured by your bank ballance, and to think so, is as shallow as an environment which nurtures that ideal, IMHO

I don't measure my success by money either. I wanted to travel and see the world and I am still in the process of doing so. However, with regards to those who measure success by their bank balance, this country provides an opportunity for them too. That is what make this country great.

I am presuming that you came here legally, and that is the crux of the alien situation, most of them do not.

Yes. I did come here legally and it was a lengthy process (understandably so) to get a permanent visa. The truth is that any country has a right to screen who gets in. Those of us who came to the USA legally find it hard to sympathize with someone who does it illegally and then protest as if America owes him/her something.

 

[Astronuc]

Frankly, I would not be surprised if I found out that PF was started by a student

It was. Actually, it was a great idea.

 

[edward]

Where did I get the $10 to pay you? And the little man has no real value until someone pays me.

You used a credit card and by the time it is paid off 20 years from now the little green man will have cost $15.

 

[Gokul43201]

Where did I get the $10 to pay you? And the little man has no real value until someone pays me.

He he...I must have dozed off midway through that post...and the department's pet possum finished the post for me.

But I insist the little man has value. It serves a purpose, and in that capacity it is worth money. If you do not count an asset as wealth, then you can throw out stocks, T-bills, and heavens... even IOUs!

 

[grant9076]

Actually, it was a great idea.

I stand corrected.

 

[Anttech]

That is simply not true. In Europe (and most other places), the prohibitively high up front costs and the lack of financial aid would have it made much more difficult (if not impossible) for me to get the training necessary to become a professional pilot. In addition, the very high taxes would make it extremely difficult for anyone who wants to start a business.

FUD... Absolutly nonsense. Yes the taxes are higher here, but there is no upfront costs to starting your own business. I should know, I have my own in 2 different countries here. As for lack of financial aid, you know we also do have banks here too, with rather good Loans. London is actually the Financial Hub of the World, with the likes of HSBC CITIGROUP BARCLAYS having the HQ there. Are you suggesting that in America you get free handouts to get started or something? Very anti-capitalist wouldn't you say?

Companies like Microsoft, Macintosh, Dell, Scaled Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars were all started in somebody’s basement or garage, dormitory or kitchen, or even from the back of someone's van. These are just a few of countless examples where a diligent person has the opportunity develop great things from a good idea. These are all compelling examples that are quite contrary to your assertion. Frankly, I would not be surprised if I found out that PF was started by a student or teacher with a good idea.

I have not heard of Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars. But I can talk about M$ Dell and Apple if you like. M$ wasnt started in a basement a simple look at wikipedia would tell you that. Regardless it was founded around 1978, almost 30 years ago, I am talking current not some history lesson of America. Apple was founded in someones basement over 30 years ago, by Steve Jobs, who is a business genius.

Look if you want a history lesson, I could go through all the things that *we* invented, and the successful companies that *we* have. Do I need to, do you really want to go tick for tack?

You have misconception of Europe, as so many Americans do.

 

[vanesch]

Oh that guy. Whose family was very wealthy, IIRC.

No, who MARRIED into a very wealthy family

Actually I now have begrudging respect for the big Republican. And if history is any indicator, has a shot at being a two-timer White House occupant.

But honestly, I respect him too (I'm actually quite surprised by his good performance as a gouvernor, in as far as I understand things).

I was only slightly ironic when I took him as an example. I do think that the US is indeed a country where, if one is made out of the right material, with enough guts and all it takes, one can reach the sky. This is slightly harder in Europe, where traditions and so on are more important and such big social jumps are made harder.

Lets get some babes into office! No neither Hillary, Barbara, or Nancy qualify. I want someone like Paris.

Well, Germany got his "babe", and with some bad luck, France will so too.
Long ago, the UK got their iron "babe" too

In fact, in France, the choice will be between an "immigrant" (Sarkozy) and a "babe" (Royal) in a few months. Unless that old Le Pen gets his nose into the business again.

 

[J77]

Quantity over quality?

 

[Anttech]

Iron *Babe*?? You have a warped sense of humour

 

[J77]

Iron *Babe*?? You have a warped sense of humour

Yeah - I've heard it called a lot of things but babe ain't one!

<profanities reserved for other bbs>

 

[denverdoc]

FUD...
I have not heard of Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars. But I can talkreally want to go tick for tack?

You have misconception of Europe, as so many Americans do.

Scaled Composites is Burt Rattans aircraft company which uses a lot of composite materials. I believe that it was bit more than starting in a garage, as well, but a great example of the right guy with the right idea at the right time--who most importanyly had a helluva lot experience in the field. Now Blockbuster Video is likely along those lines.