Is Chi Real? Exploring the Concept of Chi in Chinese Philosophy

[Line]

In Chinese philosophy they talk of a force called Chi. It's an electrical current that runs through your body,everything around you, and Earth.

I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.

Also there is a current that runs through your body. Just like there's 14 pounds of air per sqaure ince of your body there's lots ofelectrcity running through us. We're used to it so we don't feel anything. I'm wondering could this be CHi also.

 

[Gokul43201]

Chi (whatever else it may be, whether or not it exists) has nothing to do with electric currents. For instance, the seven chakras of the human body, where the concentration of chi is supposed to be greatest are uncorrelated with neuron concentrations.

 

[J77]

When I used to do karate, we had to channel our Qi to stand firmer.

It does strangely work - the firmer bit. If you tense your muscles to stand firm, you can easily be knocked over. However, if you imagine your body flowing through the floor - as if you were fixed with your surroundings - it's very hard to move you, bit like a tree

Also, Qi is a very handy Scrabble word

 

[scott1]

I rember there being about a thread about some braceltet that blanced the "+ and - quantum ions" that were soppsed to be chi.But it sounds like a scam.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I know an engineer who will swear that the technique works, but he doesn't think there is anything mystical involved. However, when he started to explain to me what he saw as the prosaic explanation for why this works, it sounded like a real stretch to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense to me.

At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.

Allegedly one adds power by piling up waves such that they interfere constructively, if you will, at the fist, at the exact moment of the punch. Of course the question is: Waves of what? He thinks this is something like a mechanical wave traveling along the muscles, but that doesn't make any sense to me. True believers say it is the Chi energy. At the least, it appears that using and practicing this technique mentally, one can dramatically improve the effectiveness of a punch.

 

[J77]

At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.

I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.

I've never heard it mentioned in terms of waves but there is standard (fundamental) technique to produce a powerful punch by, essentially, combining an exhalation (the grunt you hear martial artists make) with the twist (or snap in a kick) at the end of the move.

In some respects, this can be thought of as getting the different parts of the move in resonance with one another.

 

[pallidin]

I've seen some really impressive Qi demonstration videos on the Web(sorry, don't know the links off-hand), but I still haven't quite determined how much of it is "real" with respect to Qi.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.

I've never heard it mentioned in terms of waves but there is standard (fundamental) technique to produce a powerful punch by, essentially, combining an exhalation (the grunt you hear martial artists make) with the twist (or snap in a kick) at the end of the move.

In some respects, this can be thought of as getting the different parts of the move in resonance with one another.

I have played around with the martial arts a little, and I think I know the feeling that he described. When at my best I did have a couple of pretty effective kicks, and there was a sense of something moving along the line of force when I threw my best kicks. I can remember noticing the effect and seeing the result that it had on the power of the kick, but I didn't know what I had done differently. I assumed at the time that this feeling was a coordinated body-wide motion, much like a baseball pitcher; maybe even that one senses the changing center of mass.

 

[scott1]

Has there ever been any secientifc reasearch on Chi? And from paraphsycologist or some "paranormal secientist" but ones that have been reconginzed and funded by univeristies.

Also would there be anything in secience that we already know that could possible explain chi>

 

[FredGarvin]

Oy. I am one serious skeptic when it comes to chi. There are thousands of chi hucksters out there. Gokul was right in pointing out that chi, ki, qi has nothing to do with electricity, but with a suppsed internal energy.

There is nothing I have seen in my experience in MA that can not be explained by physical knowledge. Bruce Lee's (and others') one inch punch is hard training and body mechanics. Guys like George Dillman who profess to be able to "take your energy" or can do no touch striking are simply delusional.

Any person that I have seen that felt they could channel their chi and then had to prove it in a test, failed miserably. Most things that are attributed to chi are really cheap party tricks and are pretty easy to explain.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is nothing I have seen in my experience in MA that can not be explained by physical knowledge. Bruce Lee's (and others') one inch punch is hard training and body mechanics.

Did Bruce Lee believe in Chi energy?

For me the question is not whether or not the physical feats achieved by the most proficient MAs can be explained, but rather, has it all been explained? I still have a hard time understanding how some things can be possible. And I do realize that part of the MA mysticism is smoke and mirrors. I've seen the side show tricks used at Shaolin or similar temples.

 

[Gokul43201]

Most things that are attributed to chi are really cheap party tricks and are pretty easy to explain.

One that isn't is Rei-ki. This alternative healing practice has spread pretty rapidly, and is being used in many hospitals around the world (mostly as a supplement to the regular treatment). I don't know if there have been any statistical studies to compare Reiki effects with say, placebo effects. I've heard several "miraculous" stories of successful Reiki treatments (a friend and a close relative are Reiki masters), but I'm not aware of any scientific tests.

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/reiki_in_hospitals.html

 

[Doc Al]

For me the question is not whether or not the physical feats achieved by the most proficient MAs can be explained, but rather, has it all been explained? I still have a hard time understanding how some things can be possible. And I do realize that part of the MA mysticism is smoke and mirrors. I've seen the side show tricks used at Shaolin or similar temples.

I've been involved in the martial arts for decades and I'm still waiting for a demonstration of non-physical "chi" (along with FredGarvin, apparently). I'm talking about the BS-ers who claim that they have abilities that "go beyond" the physical.

The (non-BS) masters I know who use the term "chi" readily admit that it's "nothing more" than exquisite reflexes, balance, sensitivity, and body mechanics. Of course, that "nothing more" is plenty--some of these guys will blow your mind! But... violate the laws of physics? Get real.

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask if it "has all been explained?" Explained in what sense? (There's plenty going on in daily life that *I* can't explain, no need to look for esoterica. ) Is there something in particular that you are thinking of?

As far as Reiki goes... I remain skeptical: http://skepdic.com/reiki.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, take the breaking of bricks and boards. First of all, what is the most extreme legitimate demo that you have seen?

Also, note that I never said anything about violating the laws of physics. In fact, I said that this is not in question - by definition.

 

[CosmologyHobbyist]

I thought this item is way cool... Anyone ever use one?
http://www.kirlian.org/interesting/egely/index2.htm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Why do you think you're not being scammed?

 

[CosmologyHobbyist]

Thought it looked cool, was wondering if anyone could verify it. Please, don't anyone spend $200 for a piece of cardboard because I mentioned it! :D

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sure that Fred or Doc Al will have a word or two about devices like this.

 

[pallidin]

I thought this item is way cool... Anyone ever use one?
http://www.kirlian.org/interesting/egely/index2.htm

Looking at the pics, it appears to me that the device merely uses thermal convective influence from one's hand. Note how the hand and wrist are placed on the top and ONLY one side!
The ribbed(spiked) features of the outer armature serves to increase the effect of thermal convective influence. And, most importantly, the assymetric nature of the thermal influence(the position of hand, wrist and arm) on the device could cause it to rotate.
No "magic" here.

Scam, Scam, Scam

 

[FredGarvin]

Reiki is in the top ten scams for me. My who is involved in the alternative methods doesn't give it much weight either, mostly because there has been no serious attempt (that she knows of) to do any kind of proper study on it's effects or benefits. From people I have talked to that practice it, I am certainly not convinced. Perhaps they are their own worst PR agents. WHat I do know is that they parrot all of the things that just raise red flags for me.

 

[Gokul43201]

Reiki is in the top ten scams for me. My who is involved in the alternative methods doesn't give it much weight either, mostly because there has been no serious attempt (that she knows of) to do any kind of proper study on it's effects or benefits. From people I have talked to that practice it, I am certainly not convinced. Perhaps they are their own worst PR agents. WHat I do know is that they parrot all of the things that just raise red flags for me.

I don't think Reiki masters are scamsters. I think they do believe it works.

I went through a level I Reiki initiation several years ago. I wasn't told in advance, what to expect, so the standard trick of planting a psychological bias wasn't used. After the "initiation" where the Master supposedly opens up your chakras (or something similar) there was a brief "So, what did you experience?" session. Somewhere in the middle of this, the Master asked us whether we saw colors (I didn't see or feel anything much). Some people answered that they did see specific colors. But the fact that the color thing was raised only partway through the discussion rather than at the beginning indicates to me that this wasn't a designed scam. However, I think more people spoke of seeing colors after the idea was brought up than before. But it was a small group (around 10 people), and not suited to generating statistics.

I tend to think of most of the more popular alternative medicines as not being active scams, but being more like religion, where psychological bias is at the root of belief.

For whoever's interested, I propose as an experiment, the standard Reiki technique of "feeling one's aura". If you slowly bring your palms together, there will be a separation where you will feel what I can only describe as a very weak repulsion between your palms - as though you were compressing a bubble between your hands. It helps to close your eyes and concentrate on the feeling in your palms. Rubbing your palms before starting is also said to help. I can feel this repulsion at about about a 2 inch separation.

What is the nature of this feeling ? I'm quite sure it isn't psychological. I can, with not as good success as some others, feel another person's hand when blindfolded. I believe the sensation is based on something physical. I don't think I'm sensing a thermal gradient, though that would be a strong guess. It feels like it might be electrostatic in nature. Might it just be excess charge that builds up on your palms ? The 'rubbing palms' effect could play a role in positively influencing thermal gradients as well as excess charge.

Since Reiki Masters claim that you are feeling the Ki, I think an understanding of this sensation would go a good way towards a debunking of the Ki.

 

[Chronos]

I tinkered with voodoo once. All the people I cursed are still alive. Perhaps I should not have used a frozen chicken. On the other hand, perhaps voodoo does not work as advertised . . . That is an appealing alternative explanation. If anyone cares to prove me wrong . . . put a curse on me now. If I don't post by next friday . . . I concede.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Why do you think you're not being scammed?

Speaking of scamming, Derren Brown (a psychological trickster) Can do the one inch punch witout actually touching someone, he first of all gets a master to demonstrate the technique by knocking someone onto the floor with it, then uses suggestion to make people believe they are hit when the are not. This seems to work whether the person can see him or not which suggests he uses auditory queuing, and motions. Generally all his techniques are very easy to explain but none the less take deal of phsycological training there is no difference here between chi and suggestion. It's just too different mental disciplins that re highly trained.

I personally believe that it's mind over matter and nothing more amazing than that, in Derren browns case it's mind over mind though, it's quite surprising that people can react as if hit very hard when in fact they have not even been touched. But it's not supernatural or even out of the ordinary.

 

[J77]

DB also does that thing where he knocks people out over the phone, presumably only by suggestion

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I have complained to Channel 4 and ITV that they arrest him imediately and test whether he is fact in league with Satan and should be dealt with accordingly, however they inform me that there has not been an execution for witchcraft in 3 centuries so I'm too late, damned heathens. Can they not see that an ordinary man cannot predict which Zener cards someone will lay. Or get betting shops to pay out on losing tickets, that is the work of the Devil!

 

[gschjetne]

Force is defined by Newton's 2nd law as being equal to the rate of change of momentum, which was first published in the Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica in 1687. As far as I know the concept of Qi dates back long before this. My point is that this is metaphorical mysticism, not Physics.

Qi as a metaphor in martial arts works because it helps people achieve a lot of self-control. And self-control is probably very helpful in beating people up. But you could probably use a lot of mechanics to figure out how you can exert the greates amount of force on your opponent. But that will probably take most people the whole day. So alternative methods must be used.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I tinkered with voodoo once. All the people I cursed are still alive. Perhaps I should not have used a frozen chicken. On the other hand, perhaps voodoo does not work as advertised . . . That is an appealing alternative explanation. If anyone cares to prove me wrong . . . put a curse on me now. If I don't post by next friday . . . I concede.

My aunt has been on anti-depressants for decades but she is still depressed. My mother has at least a half dozen medical problems that no one can explain. Any given medical treatment is only effective for some percentage of those treated, and in many cases, a small percentage - others simply don't respond. There are people who die in hospitals every day and we really don't know why they died. One of the most common phrases to be heard in hospitals is: "Let's try this and see how it goes". What is this; a guessing game? Reports about cancer and lifestyle choices come out daily that conflict with whatever reports came out last year. The ideal healthy diet changes with the stroke of the hour. And in many cases, we have found that the treatment prescribed by doctors is worse than the illness.

Perhaps there are times when doctors should try frozen chickens. Having been involved with or close to the medical profession for twenty-five years, I pray to God I drop from a heart attack and never enter the medical system as a sick person.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.

The chi part seems to have been addressed, but this part hasn't. There is no electrical current running through your nervous system...at least not unless you've just stuck your finger in an electric socket. Neuronal signaling involves chemical reactions, not electrical.


As for the comments about martial arts and powerful punches/kicks, I thought that was "just" proper training to deliver the blow in a way that you don't follow through so the energy of the blow is better transferred to the target rather than absorbed by your own body. I thought it had something to do with not following through but pulling back at just the right moment. But, I know very little of the martial arts.

 

[Silverbackman]

2,500 or so years ago the Greeks and the Hindus described the universe as being composed of 4 different elements. These are: Earth, Fire, Air, and Water. We all know this is not true, but in a way it mirrors what we know now. The universe is mainly composed of 4 different main phases of matter which are similar to the classical elements. Earth can mean solid, fire can mean plasma, air can mean gas, and water can be liquid. Of course I doubt the ancients meant this but it seems like humans tend to make speculations that a partially true but not completely true until they have been shown empirically. Only then do we know their true nature.

In the past we often assumed, "It was God(s) that caused that hurricane, tornado, volcanic eruption, or those earthquakes." We now know that no supernatural force was behind natural disasters. What caused those natural disasters was not Yahweh, it was Nature. If we replace God with Nature then it all works out. Of course the ancients weren't talking about Nature but their hunch about something beyond was manifest in false premises because they did not observe what they could of tested empirically. But there is something that governs our universe: Nature.

Similarly there seems to be an energy that causes us to move. There is nothing supernatural about this. Chi, prana, mana, ect. all refer to the "force" that keeps us going. There is an "energy" that runs though our body but we shouldn't confuse this energy with the supernatural. I doubt the ancients intended this either. Rather basic "element", "gods", and "energies" have their root in the hypothesis that there are physical laws that govern the universe.

 

[FredGarvin]

I wish I had unlimited budget to go out and buy one of those wheel devices to measure my ki. I wonder why it needs it's own power?

 

[invalid]

chi vis a vis prana

I have read quite a lot about chi/prana (or the Force in Star Wars). I believe there is probably validity to it but you certainly won't need some $200 device to use/develop it. (Take up Kundilini Yoga instead!)

A good overview of it is a book: Kundalini, Evolution & Enlightenment
Editor: John White.

If, at it's foundation, the universe is pure consciousness - this would explain ki/prana.

 

[Doc Al]

If, at it's foundation, the universe is pure consciousness - this would explain ki/prana.

Oh yeah, that explains everything...

 

[Silverbackman]

Oh yeah, that explains everything...

It could be, we really don't know what fundamental conscious awareness looks like ;).

 

[acceler8]

Chi is a real force in my opinion. I believe there is a parallel explanation for everything, like yin and yang, where physics is the yang and karma is the yin.

 

[Doc Al]

total consciousness...

Reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from the classic "CaddyShack", where Carl Spackler (played by Bill Murray) says:

So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's going to stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.​