Is Chi Real? Exploring the Concept of Chi in Chinese Philosophy

[kmarinas86]

A flow of energy is not a force. That's like claiming that angular momentum is the same as force, which it is not. Chi is not a force. The modern concept of this flow of energy would probably be angular momentum, without the mysticism of the chi concept of course.

angular momentum = mass * velocity * turning radius * sin(theta)

chi = blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

 

[dibic]

I find this topic quite interesting and did a bit of scholarly research myself. I've read through the majority of the thread and didn't see anything regarding what I'm about to post so I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed.

A supposed ki-master, Kozo Nishino, collaborated with biochemists and biophysicists S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi and Tomoko Ohnishi to investigate the nature of ki in a professional scientific framework. The authors produced very intriguing results, and considering their backgrounds and university affiliations, I'm beginning to believe that there is some merit in this "force."

The title of the article is "How Far Can Ki-energy Reach?—A Hypothetical Mechanism for the Generation and Transmission of Ki-energy" and the full text may be found here: http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/6/3/379

The authors have written a few other articles on the topic as well, and a quick Google search of their names will reveal them to you. It's also worth mentioning to look over their references, there is some really interesting literature there.

 

[ZapperZ]

Oh brother! Now it's a LASER!

I just find it amazing that they make all of these hypothetical speculations but make it sound as if they've actually MEASURED them!

The paper will not pass in a physics journal.

Zz.

 

[imiyakawa]

Go on youtube and search John Chang Qigong. He's amazing: lighting things on fire with his hands, alighting an LED with his fingers, shocking people with his body/hands, pushing chopsticks through tables. Also, my kung fu master does qigong, it's not fake. It's just something we don't quite understand yet.

 

[Doc Al]

Go on youtube and search John Chang Qigong. He's amazing: lighting things on fire with his hands, alighting an LED with his fingers, shocking people with his body/hands, pushing chopsticks through tables.

Looks ludicrously fake to me. Look up what James Randi (the magician) has to say about Chang and his tricks.

 

[Kronos5253]

I find this topic quite interesting and did a bit of scholarly research myself. I've read through the majority of the thread and didn't see anything regarding what I'm about to post so I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed.

A supposed ki-master, Kozo Nishino, collaborated with biochemists and biophysicists S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi and Tomoko Ohnishi to investigate the nature of ki in a professional scientific framework. The authors produced very intriguing results, and considering their backgrounds and university affiliations, I'm beginning to believe that there is some merit in this "force."

The title of the article is "How Far Can Ki-energy Reach?—A Hypothetical Mechanism for the Generation and Transmission of Ki-energy" and the full text may be found here: http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/6/3/379

The authors have written a few other articles on the topic as well, and a quick Google search of their names will reveal them to you. It's also worth mentioning to look over their references, there is some really interesting literature there.

That research was biased from the beginning. It already assumed that ki was a real "force". I think before you do an experiment like that, you have to figure out whether or not ki exists, and go from there.

 

[imiyakawa]

Looks ludicrously fake to me.

You mean you've never seen anything like this before, and you don't understand what's going on - not that it looks ludicrously fake. That statement is ludicrous. A non-biased observer would say the video appears real, but could possibly be fake, or perhaps John Chang may possibly be performing some amazing tricks - paying the restaurant to allow him to drill holes in their table before hand leaving a thin layer of wood unscathed on the top (see other Change video), somehow getting the LED to light up without it being connected to a power source. Or maybe he hired out an English film crew and staged a performance in order to get more students.

Do you honestly believe James Randi is a beacon of truth? He makes a one sentece mention of him in the material I've found: "John Chang, shows other standard tricks of the trade." Nothing else - perhaps James Randi couldn't debunk half the stuff John did so he felt a brief denial (which would obviously be accepted instantaneously by the majority 'pseudoskeptical' audience) was safest.

Chang and his tricks.

How can you say this when you don't even know? All you have is your bias. Sorry, but people like you annoy me since I know chi exists and can do things like this because I've seen it in real life. Surely you would be annoyed if you knew something exists but people said it was 'tricks' but knew absolutely nothing about what they were talking about.

 

[gnurf]

How can you say this when you don't even know? All you have is your bias. Sorry, but people like you annoy me since I know chi exists and can do things like this because I've seen it in real life. Surely you would be annoyed if you knew something exists but people said it was 'tricks' but knew absolutely nothing about what they were talking about.

How can you say this when you don't even know? All you have is your bias. Sorry, but people like you annoy me since I know chi does not exist and can't do things like this because I've seen the tricks in real life. Surely you would be annoyed if you knew something didn't exist but people said it was real but knew absolutely nothing about what they were talking about?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You mean you've never seen anything like this before, and you don't understand what's going on - not that it looks ludicrously fake. .

Provide some actual evidence in the form of scientific material [published in a journal], or drop it. Referencing cheesy videos as evidence when the claim could be tested directly, is a waste of time and a violation of the forum guidelines.

 

[Virtuous]

I am into martial as much as I am into science. Apologies if I do this wrong (newbie).

I don't believe in chi, mostly because I've never seen it happen or been give solid evidence for it (besides having high respect for the scientific method). I haven't seen proof that can't explained naturally or done by a trick/illusion. There have been many people who can demonstrate from with in there group, but when an outsider comes in it magically stops working.

I've had someone try it on me before with the same effect. I can't disprove Ki without a physical test to do so. I am not 100% confident that it's not true, but I doubt you can be that confident with anything.

An example would be like:


Where a Kiai Master challenges anyone against him, and loses miserably.

I've seen a few cases like that as well which I don't have access to, or can't find at the moment.

I am extremely skeptical that when it comes time to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, it always has fallen short. If you ask anyone how do you know the electrical force is real...It's easily shown. When Ki comes around a subject that has been around for? however long, yet only a few special people have the ability to produce this phenomenon. Why is Ki so secretive yet every other force when observed is detected? There is evidence to it. The body is founded on fundamentally physical properties. Biological to Chemical, and than physics, so I don't understand where Ki comes from.

Do all organic life have it? Or is it at the chemical level? or where? There are absolutely no answers to it. You could say that it's meta-physical...but how is interacting physically? At one point you have to accept that it does follow some sort of rule, its qualitative by description, It's not infinite, and it can be controlled. People can believe whatever they choose but I find very have to accept.

 

[FredGarvin]

Go on youtube and search John Chang Qigong. He's amazing: lighting things on fire with his hands, alighting an LED with his fingers...

Do you honestly believe James Randi is a beacon of truth? He makes a one sentece mention of him in the material I've found: "John Chang, shows other standard tricks of the trade." Nothing else...

Your Google Chi is not so strong. I found a few items on him in a couple of seconds. One has a direct link to your example of lighting LEDs in his hands. Chi FAIL.

http://www.abra4magic.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=N133&Category_Code=

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93561

 

[marvi3]

sameone have never measured the value of CHI?

Someone have never seen the channels of acuppuncture?

Marvi

 

[Zubin]

I think everyone confuses chi/qi/ki with kinetic linking which has a pure scientific explanation.

 

[seycyrus]

I think everyone confuses chi/qi/ki with kinetic linking which has a pure scientific explanation.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of CHI proponents who do not espouse kinetic linking.

 

[rplatter]

I don't understand the animosity that I am getting from the non Chi believers.
It seems that they are against the idea that there may be something there.
I thought the whole point of science was to question our beliefs and test for the truth. And even when we had a 'truth' to be sceptical of it.

Personnally I believe there is something there.
I have had experiences with it, but do not know what it is or how to test for it.
The experiences I have had all involved other people who believed in a 'force' of some type.
In one instance i was receiving a Reiki cleansing (Girlfriends mom. I didn't believe in it, but didn't want to annoy the mom)
I've been meditating for years at this point. And durring the cleansing I was imagining water flowing through me like I did durring meditation.
evenutally I got board and started playing (In my head) with where the water was flowing and directed it up toward the two performing the cleansing.
They immediatly let go of me and acted surprised.
Later I was told that I was like a bottomless pit and they couldn't fill me up, but at the last minute the energy came rushing up and almost overwealmed them.
(This was all with no comment from me)

Another incident involved the someone who was into majik. He and his girlfriend had been storing up energy in a tectite (SP) (meteorite glass.)
He asked me to feel the energy in the rock, but 'don't steal it' . (I felt nothing) but I imagined a flow of water from the rock through me.
When I gave the rock back he got angry that I had stolen the energy and demanded I put it back.
I took the rock and reversed the flow in my imagination.
When he again took the rock back he was amazed that the rock had even more energy than before.
In both of these incidents I don't think I indicated anything in my behavior or actions, but others noticed something that fit with what I was doing in my head.
So what is going on?
I don't know, but I believe something.
The problem I see is that the Chi or breath energy is not detectible by modern instruments.
And the people who can feel it are not believed by the sceptics.
Personally I cannot feel it, but can/could (apparently) manipulate it.

I think another problem may be that this 'energy' is manipulatable by thought. And apparently, based on others comments, this thought does not have to be adjacent to the experiment.
So if a sceptic is involved in the experiment, that sceptic may poison the results.

A question for the sceptics is:
If this is true, how do you test for this energy?

I tend to believe the testing should follow methods and equipment similar to the testing of quantum fields. I can't remember the particular name for the part of quantum science, but what they test for may be the same thing.
In other words, the Chi effects may be the result of people manipulating quantum energy.
(Which would also explain majik)

I am open to the possibility. But I have a problem with a lot of the mind energy stuff.
It sounds too much like 'if you will it it will happen'.
With a lot of self censoring of the data to make a point. (Only noticing the stuff that matches your beliefs)
However, the same could be said for the sceptics/doubters.

 

[kakarotyjn]

I'm in China.In China,most people don't understand Chi.

This concept is usually connected with Chinese Kungfu,especially Taiji,Xingyi,Bagua.

And now in China,there are many so called Kungfu master teaching Taiji,and they use Chi to explain things very often even though they don't know it at all.Many people who were interested in Chinese Kungfu went to learn it.But none of them can be a good fighter.None of them can beat Chinese professional Sanda Player,not to mention Fedor,Buakaw or Anderson Silva.

But there really exist Chinese Kungfu,the so called Inner Energy.

I know a special master called QinWenqing,he is really a master,a fighter.He is not a professonal player,but many Sanda Player couldn't beat him.He learned the real Taiji and Xingyi.

Professional players in MMA or MuayThai or Boxing or Kickboxing foucus there power training on muscle,but the real Chinese Kungfu follow another routine.

 

[kakarotyjn]

I haven't learn much now,but at first,he teach me to exercise my shoulders,bestraddle and even backbone.He say we should require more move space for them,and that's the first step.

And he has ever said modern Chinese are misdirected by ancient Chinese literati in Chinese Kungfu.There are many literati in ancient who master kungfu and then wrote them in Books.And the books were not concrete,but artificially.They creat many notions which did no good for us to understand.

Chi is one of it.

 

[kakarotyjn]

And I think Martial Arts should also be science,a science about humans' body.There shouldn't be anything fantasy in it.

 

[qedprigmosyno]

I'd like to contribute to the argument.
Qi as far as I am concerned was developed around the uses of an art of healing, the basic forms being herbology, acupunture and qi gong. I think part of what the argument is missing is how does Qi play into these arts of healing? It seems nonsensical that the focus of our arguments has shifted to arts of destruction (aka the different martial arts). From what I know, Qi is supposedly to contribute to the flow of the body, not necessarily an energy flow, but a flow that moves the blood/ fluids in our bodies. Western thought has confirmed we have a respiratory, lymphatic, nervous and circulatory system, however the thought is that Qi has its own system of flow. If one lacks flow of Qi, the person surely becomes sick. It should be important to note that this thought has existed for thousands of years.
If it helps at all, this flow seems to appear in martial arts in the form of "kinetics" where it is possible to channel effort and energy into a singular action and movement. It can be done outside of the martial arts. In tennis, it becomes impossible to serve fast without the correct kinetics of shoulder, legs, hips, back and wrist snap. I just serve this as a possibility for the existence of Qi.
I seem to agree with earlier arguments that Qi seems to be a mental property of the mind to control the body.Couldn't it possible that point of martial arts is a matter of being able to channel the flow of Qi efficiently with the mind?

 

[Amatuer]

I have seen "chi" in action, as an experienced martial artist. As a general skeptic, I must say I believe the same thing is going that creats the placebo effect. I think if someone gets acupuncture, accepts without a doubt that it will help, it will help. I know from experience (I have no deformed bones or other anomilies as stated elsewhere in this thread, other then a poor grasp of english) that when breaking things such as concrete using martial arts, the "trick" is knowing that for sure, what you are breaking is going to break. If you have any doubt, your going to hurt yourself. Knowing how and where to strike is important but the "knowing" is what is key. Recall Yodas advice in Starwars when Luke says he will try. "Do or do not, there is no try". While I don't have the specific answers to the "how it works", I suspect the waves our brains can emmit are more powerfull and influential than we know. Chi, the placebo effect, for the religious types prayer healing. I think it is all evidence of the same thing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have seen "chi" in action, as an experienced martial artist. As a general skeptic, I must say I believe the same thing is going that creats the placebo effect. I think if someone gets acupuncture, accepts without a doubt that it will help, it will help. I know from experience (I have no deformed bones or other anomilies as stated elsewhere in this thread, other then a poor grasp of english) that when breaking things such as concrete using martial arts, the "trick" is knowing that for sure, what you are breaking is going to break. If you have any doubt, your going to hurt yourself. Knowing how and where to strike is important but the "knowing" is what is key. Recall Yodas advice in Starwars when Luke says he will try. "Do or do not, there is no try". While I don't have the specific answers to the "how it works", I suspect the waves our brains can emmit are more powerfull and influential than we know. Chi, the placebo effect, for the religious types prayer healing. I think it is all evidence of the same thing.

Hello, Amatuer, welcome to PF.

We are far more interested in your experiences with what you believe to be chi, than we are personal theories, which in fact are not allowed. There is certainly no evidence for brain-wave power.

What have you seen that makes you think chi is real? Why do you think it is a matter of chi, and not just concentration?

 

[shredder666]

let me tell you something, I'm asian, and Chi really just means gas, air, oxygen, etc

 

[gnurf]

let me tell you something, I'm asian, and Chi really just means gas, air, oxygen, etc

So an acupuncture treatment aims to make air flow freely in the meridians of my body?

 

[Proton Soup]

i picked up a martial arts book on chi once, and it was pretty obvious that most of it was describing transfer of force via the muscles and skeleton. it's easy to see how someone would come up with it as an explanation for how muscles and leverage works. but then it starts getting goofy and adding in a bunch of stuff that makes no sense at all. we know it's wrong now, as science has progressed, but it wasn't so bad for its time.

also note that much of modern kung fu stuff seems devoted to parlor tricks to add an air of mystery and awe to the uninitiated. in that sense, you are fighting people with your mind by psyching them out before the contest has even begun. so i think much of the goofy stuff is just psychological warfare.

 

[shredder666]

No, most westerners have been lied to/confused. Accupuncture targets what's known as "pressure points" I have no idea what "kind" of pressure that would be but the LITERAL and ACTUAL meaning of "chi" according to my grandfather (who was a doctor in China that knows chinese medicine and acupuncture) means gas.

 

[gnurf]

No, most westerners have been lied to/confused. Accupuncture targets what's known as "pressure points" I have no idea what "kind" of pressure that would be but the LITERAL and ACTUAL meaning of "chi" according to my grandfather (who was a doctor in China that knows chinese medicine and acupuncture) means gas.

The problem seems to be that these "pressure" points, or whatever you want to call them, are no different from non-"pressure" points. I.e., whatever it is that the acupuncture needles are supposed to do, it doesn't matter where you stick them. This is, as far as I know, what every well-conducted study shows, and the only reasonable conclusion seems to be that the points in question do not exist.

Note that I'm note saying that poking people with needles has no effect (it obviously has -- it hurts among other things), but explaining any felt effect by invoking the concept of "chi" seems to be futile.

 

[qedprigmosyno]

This is, as far as I know, what every well-conducted study shows, and the only reasonable conclusion seems to be that the points in question do not exist.

Note that I'm note saying that poking people with needles has no effect (it obviously has -- it hurts among other things), but explaining any felt effect by invoking the concept of "chi" seems to be futile.

Well I have no experience further beyond the concept of chi besides oral knowledge. However, accupunturists believe that not all points are equal. Certain locations for the needle will stimulate the body in another area. How this is conceived is beyond western logic; possibly a result of experimentation. Also, perhaps the reason why the concept of the effects of chi has become a futile effort is because we attempt to layer a recent comprehension of biology over the core of context for which Chi was developed.

 

[bobquantum]

Chi is probably a force that can be defined by the unified field theory. That is, if it is a force. Yes, I am a skeptic.

 

[D.Schweitzer]

I'll start by saying that I don't know, one way or another, wheather Chi, Ki, Qi or any other force is real. What I do know that the laws of physics, as they stand today, are WRONG. I'm not saying that I know the right ones or that anyone does but that if you look at our history, as we continue to learn, we learn that everything we used to "KNOW" has been wrong. I am also not saying that everything about our physics is wrong but chances are, in a hundred years or so, our the defenitions we have given it will have completely changed.

In saying that, the human as a single and a spieces is a force with an amazing power. We have barely begun to understand what we are capable of and as we evolve the possibilities continue to compound. In the end who knows what we are capable of. All I know is that it will be an amazing ride!

Dan

 

[ZapperZ]

I'll start by saying that I don't know, one way or another, wheather Chi, Ki, Qi or any other force is real. What I do know that the laws of physics, as they stand today, are WRONG. I'm not saying that I know the right ones or that anyone does but that if you look at our history, as we continue to learn, we learn that everything we used to "KNOW" has been wrong. I am also not saying that everything about our physics is wrong but chances are, in a hundred years or so, our the defenitions we have given it will have completely changed.

In saying that, the human as a single and a spieces is a force with an amazing power. We have barely begun to understand what we are capable of and as we evolve the possibilities continue to compound. In the end who knows what we are capable of. All I know is that it will be an amazing ride!

Dan

Maybe you need to learn the history a little bit more.

While there are wrong ideas, there are also ideas that are correct within certain boundary of applicability! Newton's Laws are not wrong. If it is, then you should run out of your house immediately. Quantum Mechanics is also not wrong. If it is, you should never rely your life or the lives of your loved ones on any modern electronics (meaning, don't drive, don't fly, and don't do anything else). History has shown that these concepts have limits, not that they are wrong!

In fact, if you come up with a new theory, and in the limit where Newton Laws work, if they don't converge to the same Newtonian description, then there's something wrong with that new theory. In special relativity, we get back the same Newtonian equations in the limit of v<<c. If this doesn't work, SR would be in deep doo doo!

Zz.

 

[gnurf]

I'll start by saying that I don't know, one way or another, wheather Chi, Ki, Qi or any other force is real.

Would you continue by saying that you also don't know whether or not unicorns, elves and fairies are real? By which method or criteria do you distinguish between those ideas that you consider to be "real" and those you consider "not real"?

What I do know that the laws of physics, as they stand today, are WRONG.

Great. Which laws in particular? And please show your work.

I'm not saying that I know the right ones or that anyone does but that if you look at our history, as we continue to learn, we learn that everything we used to "KNOW" has been wrong.

Well, surely then the idea of flowing "chi" must be wrong? Or do you only apply that logic to support your own preconceived ideas about how you wish the universe works?

I am also not saying that everything about our physics is wrong but chances are, in a hundred years or so, our the defenitions we have given it will have completely changed.

Yes, in stark contrast to the ancient and unchanged idea of "chi", science constantly changes and evolves when faced with new evidence -- which, in the case of "chi", there is none.

 

[imiyakawa]

Yet another anecdote:

I now think that CHI is real.

I was doing my usual kung fu training and my teacher decided to show me some elementary QiGong exercises (from the bagua system). Within 30 seconds, I had to stop the exercises as I was hallucinating (I had to stop them before I did the exercises to "bring the chi back down my font"). THe hallucinations were similar to those reported by marijuana users or those on morphine - it's like there was a massive light on and everything was 'breathing'.

These exercises were not more strenuous than those that preeeded it.

This could be the result of:
- Chi getting stuck in my head as my teacher suggested
- Some kind of brain seizure or a lack of oxygen.

My teacher also says that once you are proficient at QiGong, it feels like fire moving around your meridians (or the supposed chi-paths).

 

[imiyakawa]

which, in the case of "chi", there is none.

This is actually a misleading statement as its assumption is that there has been scientific inquiry and a subsequent search for verifyable evidence into chi, which there has not been.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Yet another anecdote:

I now think that CHI is real.

I was doing my usual kung fu training and my teacher decided to show me some elementary QiGong exercises (from the bagua system). Within 30 seconds, I had to stop the exercises as I was hallucinating (I had to stop them before I did the exercises to "bring the chi back down my font"). THe hallucinations were similar to those reported by marijuana users or those on morphine - it's like there was a massive light on and everything was 'breathing'.

These exercises were not more strenuous than those that preeeded it.

This could be the result of:
- Chi getting stuck in my head as my teacher suggested
- Some kind of brain seizure or a lack of oxygen.

My teacher also says that once you are proficient at QiGong, it feels like fire moving around your meridians (or the supposed chi-paths).

Hypoxia (and internal production of Atropine) and suggestability.

 

[Proton Soup]

Hypoxia (and internal production of Atropine)

what?!