More outrageous - 'is is' or 'never wrong'

[Loren Booda]

Which of them is more unpresidential and why - the Clintonism or the Bushism?

 

[Gokul43201]

Obama does the "is is" thing too. :yuck:

 

[Loren Booda]

And McCain does the "never wrong" (or is he never wrong)?

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not sure I've heard the "never wrong" one - could you post the full quote?

 

[Loren Booda]

I put it in partial quotes because I could not find the direct source. I recall that Bush said in a press conference to the effect that he could not remember making a mistake. I'm sure many folks out there could provide a reference.

 

[Loren Booda]

Try http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040413-20.html" for one example:

Q Thank you, Mr. President. In the last campaign, you were asked a question about the biggest mistake you'd made in your life, and you used to like to joke that it was trading Sammy Sosa. You've looked back before 9/11 for what mistakes might have been made. After 9/11, what would your biggest mistake be, would you say, and what lessons have you learned from it?

THE PRESIDENT: I wish you would have given me this written question ahead of time, so I could plan for it. (Laughter.) John, I'm sure historians will look back and say, gosh, he could have done it better this way, or that way. You know, I just -- I'm sure something will pop into my head here in the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to come up with an answer, but it hadn't yet.

 

[Evo]

And McCain does the "never wrong" (or is he never wrong)?

I'm not sure I've heard the "never wrong" one - could you post the full quote?

Russ was asking you to post where McCain said this, not Bush.

 

[MeJennifer]

Which of them is more unpresidential and why - the Clintonism or the Bushism?

Clintonism, Bushism, Democrats, Republicans, Obama, McCain, what an incredible charade. Clearly the American people vote for the president and political leaders it deserves.

 

[Loren Booda]

Evo,

I was attempting humor by reflecting on what Gokul43201 wrote. I hoped it was apparent in the thread overall. As Obama, so McCain (with a double negative, to boot).

 

[russ_watters]

Russ was asking you to post where McCain said this, not Bush.

No, I didn't - the OP calls it a "bushism", so I assumed it was Bush who said it.

In any case, if that's all that it's based on, then the premise of the thread is a complete false-dichotomy. The Clintonism "is is" is an actual quote. The "bushism" is at best a paraphrase, but in the quote posted, it doesn't look to me like it is an accurate one.

But then, I guess that makes the answer to the OP's question easy: the Clintonism is much worse. But that's mainly just because he actually said it. If a person actually ever said 'I'm never wrong', then it'd be a toss-up.

 

[Evo]

Ooops, since you asked that immediately after the claim that McCain said it, I thought you were referring to McCain.

 

[Gokul43201]

Oops here too! It just struck me what "is is" thing Loren was referring to (only after reading Russ' last post). I was referring to a completely unrelated "is is" by Obama - a grammatical "yuck", not a connotative one.

Example: But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives.

 

[russ_watters]

See, this is why I think people need to be more explicit about their points. Even though Clinton's "is is" is a well-known quote, in order to properly discuss it, we need to read the actual quote. And that goes double for the paraphrased bushism.

 

[Loren Booda]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton"

Clinton said, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the—if he—if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement"

 

[Loren Booda]

I wouldn't want either of them teaching "ethics" to my kids, if I had any.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I couldn't say. They're pretty close. The thing is that Clinton was not only attempting so say he was not wrong he also gives the impression that side stepping the truth by creative or overly literal interpretation of a question is just normal operating procedure.

So to my mind we have arrogant or arrogant in defense of dishonesty. Without taking into regard the magnitude of the context I would have to say Clinton is worse.

 

[ramsey2879]

I couldn't say. They're pretty close. The thing is that Clinton was not only attempting so say he was not wrong he also gives the impression that side stepping the truth by creative or overly literal interpretation of a question is just normal operating procedure.

So to my mind we have arrogant or arrogant in defense of dishonesty. Without taking into regard the magnitude of the context I would have to say Clinton is worse.

But Bush was arrogant in playing politics while I believe Clinton was only be arrogant in defense of his personal privacy, so I rate Bush's quote as the worst. I rate lack of humility as more serious when compared to the other sins in the bible such as dishonesty. Grant it none of us is free from making mistakes and Clinton never said he was.

 

[WarPhalange]

I wouldn't want either of them teaching "ethics" to my kids, if I had any.

Ethics?


Or kids?

 

[Loren Booda]

Depends on whether you learned your grammar.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

But Bush was arrogant in playing politics while I believe Clinton was only be arrogant in defense of his personal privacy, so I rate Bush's quote as the worst. I rate lack of humility as more serious when compared to the other sins in the bible such as dishonesty. Grant it none of us is free from making mistakes and Clinton never said he was.

That's why I made sure to say 'without regard to context'. It changes in that light but what the 'comments' indicate in and of themselves is fairly equal. The thing is that Clinton shows both dishonesty and lack of humility.

 

[ramsey2879]

That's why I made sure to say 'without regard to context'. It changes in that light but what the 'comments' indicate in and of themselves is fairly equal. The thing is that Clinton shows both dishonesty and lack of humility.

Show me where Clinton showed a lack of humility when it came to politics. There never have been so many attempts to shut out those who might disagree from the decision making process as in the Bush administration. The "is is" quote can be attributed simply to the courtroom theatrics where a defendant takes every technicality available to evade answering a question while under oath. It wasn't dishonest, if it was Clinton would have been found guilty of perjury but he wasn't. It certainly wasn't a lack of humility that caused Clinton to evade the question either.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Show me where Clinton showed a lack of humility when it came to politics. There never have been so many attempts to shut out those who might disagree from the decision making process as in the Bush administration. The "is is" quote can be attributed simply to the courtroom theatrics where a defendant takes every technicality available to evade answering a question while under oath. It wasn't dishonest, if it was Clinton would have been found guilty of perjury but he wasn't. It certainly wasn't a lack of humility that caused Clinton to evade the question either.

He was found guilty and debarred for it. It may have been theatrics to some extent but abuse of power is abuse of power. It showed, although in a sensationalistic fashion, that Clinton had no qualms with taking advantage of his position for unethical purposes. And his defense of his dishonesty, in my opinion, shows his lack of humility. He could have easily said "Yes I evaded the question because I didn't think it was any of this person's business" but he didn't.

And yes nailing an intern is unethical (morality is nothing I care to argue). If a McDonalds manager had sex with a subordinate he would be fired and I see no reason why the President of the United States of America should be held to less of a standard than McDonalds employees.

If you want to get into dishonesty over politics with Clinton then we should probably start discussing the definition of the term "genecide".

Clinton is an *** and Bush is a boob. The biggest difference between their arrogance is the 'context'.

 

[ramsey2879]

He was found guilty and debarred for it. It may have been theatrics to some extent but abuse of power is abuse of power. It showed, although in a sensationalistic fashion, that Clinton had no qualms with taking advantage of his position for unethical purposes. And his defense of his dishonesty, in my opinion, shows his lack of humility. He could have easily said "Yes I evaded the question because I didn't think it was any of this person's business" but he didn't.

.

Sources?
As for agreeing that he evaded the question in his deposition, that wasn't the question. The question was whether his answer in the deposition was a lie and whether he should be impreached. Obviously, people had different views on this issue. Even if he was disbarred, enough people considered that it was not a lie or was not serious enough that he should be impreach. If the CEO of McDonalds was found to have committed adultory, he would be humbled and admitit as did Clinton (Finally), but he wouldn't step down from his position.

 

[ramsey2879]

If you want to get into dishonesty over politics with Clinton then we should probably start discussing the definition of the term "genecide".

Clinton is an *** and Bush is a boob. The biggest difference between their arrogance is the 'context'.

I thought the issue was a "lack of humility" which is a lot more serious than dishonesty. Those who lack humility are not willing to listen to those who disagree with you because they consider themselves superior. I never found Clinton to exhibit a lack of humility.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sources?

I've been too sloppy lately. Apparently the original source where I read that lacked some detail...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Law_license_suspension

In a separate case, Clinton was ordered to pay $25,000 in fines to Arkansas state's bar officials and his Arkansas law license was suspended for five years.[75] The agreement came on the condition that Whitewater prosecutors would not pursue federal perjury charges against him.[76] Clinton was suspended by the Supreme Court in October 2001, and, facing disbarment from that court, Clinton resigned from the Supreme Court bar in November.

So he made sure to avoid potential disbarment.

 

[ramsey2879]

I've been too sloppy lately. Apparently the original source where I read that lacked some detail...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Law_license_suspension

So he made sure to avoid potential disbarment.

Thanks for the clarification, the perjury charge stemmed form the Paula Jones case in which Clintions lawyer filed a deposition from Monica Lewinsky stating falsely stating that she never had sex with Clinton, and from Clintons disposition in that case. Clinton publically stated that he "never had sex" with Lewinsky. Later, after the scandel had broke, Clinton omitted publically on national television to a to an inappropriate relationship with Lewinsky but argued that he was not paying attention when his lawyer filed the false Lewinsky deposition; and, that his statements in his deposition were "legally accurate". The Judge held Clinton in comtempt for perjury and obstruction of justice and referred the matter to the State Supreme Court which as you stated resulted in Clinton's agreement to withdraw from practice before the Supreme Court. See also http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/12/clinton.contempt/ . The same charges were brought up in the impreachment proceedings before the US Senate and Clinton and the Senate split 50-50 on the obstruction of justice charge and voted 55-45 against the perjury charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury#cite_note-4.