- #386
Evo
Staff Emeritus
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In September, this is when he was barred from the college.WhoWee said:I'm not clear on the timeline - this apparently happened before he ever purchased a gun?
In September, this is when he was barred from the college.WhoWee said:I'm not clear on the timeline - this apparently happened before he ever purchased a gun?
In AZ, you can request a mental evaluation for a person who acts irrationally. Too bad his prof didn't do so.nismaratwork said:Yeah... there's a guy who should pass the IFBC...
edit: I should point out that while this is certainly a slap to the federal check, if he HAD failed in AZ he could have simply snagged one, LEGALLY, at a gun show.
Washington Post said:Mental health experts say that, unlike many other states - where little can be done to force an unstable person into treatment until he or she becomes violent and poses a danger to themself or others - Arizona is different.
Any person in Arizona can petition the court for a psychiatric evaluation solely because a person appears to be mentally ill and doesn't know it.
"When people appear mentally ill or show some instability, how do you get them to [mental health] resources if the system doesn't know those people are out there?" Cash said. "Our crisis line is manned 24/7. Anyone concerned about his behavior could have called at any time."
Cash added that he had no information on whether Loughner sought out private treatment covered by private insurance. "If he was interfacing with other mental health officials, I don't know about that," Cash said.
turbo-1 said:In AZ, you can request a mental evaluation for a person who acts irrationally. Too bad his prof didn't do so.
Actually, his rant kind of sounds like some of the posts I've seen here before. When I first heard of his ramblings, world currency, government control, etc... I was wondering if he was a former member. I know I've seen the "teachers are paid with our taxes, they're part of the government scheme to brainwash and control us", yada yada. I guess it's just common conspiracy nuttiness. When do you make the leap from assuming it's just another dumb kid to he's a danger to society?turbo-1 said:In AZ, you can request a mental evaluation for a person who acts irrationally. Too bad his prof didn't do so.
Evo said:Actually, his rant kind of sounds like some of the posts I've seen here.
nismaratwork said:True, or his friends, or the people who complained to the professor, or his parents, or the other people he scared, or arguably even aides to Ms. Giffords after his very odd exchange with her back in 2007.
Lets be blunt: it's amazing that he was reported as much as he was, given that people seem so hesitant to take such measures.
WhoWee said:Perhaps they didn't trust the system - to both protect them from his retribution, and/or to "cure" him?
UNTIL he did this, in the larger view of the world, he really didn't stand out that much - (apparently) no assaults, no weapons charges, no gang affiliations, no death threats, and no history of violent behavior? Apparently he smoked pot - not exactly a warning sign for violent tendencies and might have actually mellowed him?
Evo said:I saw this interview yesterday.
"Prof. Called 911 on Loughner after Class "Rant"
Says She Called Police in September after Tucson Shooting Suspect Raved about Constitution, Freedom of Speech"
Evo said:Actually, his rant kind of sounds like some of the posts I've seen here before. When I first heard of his ramblings, world currency, government control, etc... I was wondering if he was a former member. I know I've seen the "teachers are paid with our taxes, they're part of the government scheme to brainwash and control us", yada yada. I guess it's just common conspiracy nuttiness. When do you make the leap from assuming it's just another dumb kid to he's a danger to society?
It wasn't the Constitution that was relevant, it was the call to 911. Given recent events I would think it was very relevant. If he had trimmed his nails and brushed his teeth in a way that resulted in a call to 911 that would be relevant too.mugaliens said:My goodness, Evo. I "rave" about our Constitution on a couple other forums all the time.
Proton Soup said:so start reporting your neighbors to the gov't now? is that a sane response, or a crazy response?
Jimmy Snyder said:It wasn't the Constitution that was relevant, it was the call to 911. Given recent events I would think it was very relevant. If he had trimmed his nails and brushed his teeth in a way that resulted in a call to 911 that would be relevant too.
mugaliens said:<snip>
Now this makes sense. I'm not sure if there is a point of demarcation whereupon one might declare another to be a threat to society. In fact, I think it would be incredibly dangerous to attempt to do so based on what someone wrote, as what one writes is often seriously at odds with what one might do. I would even argue that many murderous individuals never wrote a thing before they stepped forward to commit murder and mayhem.
Sadly, I think the only point whereby we can be assured that someone has crossed the line is when someone has crossed the line.
Jimmy Snyder said:It wasn't the Constitution that was relevant, it was the call to 911. Given recent events I would think it was very relevant. If he had trimmed his nails and brushed his teeth in a way that resulted in a call to 911 that would be relevant too.
nismaratwork said:I'd say it depends on the neibours, but Proton, if I were living next to these people, would I even think to make that call? The only people we KNOW were there when he became threatening or otherwise made people uncomfortable enough for a boot from COMMUNITY COLLEGE... in Tuscon... ARIZONA. I still can't get over that one... you truly must be mad as a cut snake to stand out that badly in that setting.
Anyway, you're making a moot point. Neighbors can ALREADY do that, and always could. The controlling mechanism would be reprecussionns of a legal and social nature, which is probably why Arizona can't decide if its a police state, or 'the last free state'. Actually, that seems to be a common problem in this country, but again, NOTHING to do with...
THE SHOOTING.
Does Evo need to get us back on topic AGAIN?
No idea what you are ranting about, the article is extremely relevant. As for ex-military, funny you should mention that, when the news first came out, the first thing that people assumed was that the shooter was ex-military, it was discussed at the beginning of the thread.mugaliens said:Let's stick with facts that are relevant!
Then you joined the military? Not sure what your point is.On another note, decades ago I was assessed by a psychologist who used some sort of Q&A test to find me a "danger to society."
Proton Soup said:moot? i think the reporting of IPs was mentioned. but yes, he was reported. he was a familiar face to law enforcement. thing is, we used to keep people with mental problems institutionalized many years ago. then for reasons I'm not as familiar with since it is even a bit before my time, we let them out and they became the odd folks that live on the street talking to themselves and begging for alms. some of it ostensibly for protection of their rights, but there had to be a bit of "not with my tax money" going on.
does this have to do with the shooting? it has to do with the reactions of people to it. which i find fascinating.
turbo-1 said:The guy had 5 separate run-ins with campus security, and was told that he had to have a psych evaluation before he would be allowed to attend CC again. Still, nobody called the hot-line to trigger such an evaluation based on his erratic, disruptive behavior.
See post #388drankin said:There's a hot-line?
nismaratwork said:More and more, we live in a society (then and now), which is retributive and punitive in its penal system, in practice; this is incompatible with emerging evidence that some of the WORST and recidivist criminals have psychological and neurological defects.
I think that's the point, he wasn't violent, he was weird.turbo-1 said:The guy had 5 separate run-ins with campus security, and was told that he had to have a psych evaluation before he would be allowed to attend CC again. Still, nobody called the hot-line to trigger such an evaluation based on his erratic, disruptive behavior.
"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a passing friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.
Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a poem about bland tasks such as showering, going to the gym and riding the bus in wild "poetry slam" style - "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."
According to Pima, Loughner was a student from the summer of 2005 though the fall of 2010. From February to September 2010, Loughner had five "contacts" with campus police for classroom and library disruptions. On Sept. 29, campus police found that he had filmed a video on YouTube that claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution.
The college administration immediately suspended Loughner and delivered a letter of suspension to Loughner's parents' home. According to the Pima, police officers spoke with both Loughner and his parents.
The letter barred Loughner from returning to campus expect to set up an appointment and discuss the school's code of conduct and his suspension.
On Oct.4, Loughner and his parents met with college administrators and withdrew from school. On Oct. 7, Pima sent a letter to Loughner telling him that if he intended to return to school, he would have to get a letter from a mental health official indicating "his presence at the College does not present a danger to himself or others."
jreelawg said:I agree that it was obvious based on his obsessions and writings that he was insane. I wouldn't go as far as to recommend anyone who thinks we should move to a gold standard, or who believes in conspiracy theories, involving things like even mind control, should be considered a threat and institutionalized. Especially since there is some president for being suspicious in this regard. Bottom line the government has been caught doing some pretty horrific things in the not so distant past. Should having the suspicion something sinister is going on, be reason enough to call someone a psychopath and a danger to society?
One day there may be a vile conspiracy facing us, and it would help if people were level headed enough to be without strong superficial procedure. That being said, when a person is obsessed with this stuff, and confrontational about it, and their thinking is so illogical and garbled, you can tell something is wrong.
But really I think conspiracy theories are not to blame, Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck are not to blame. Now consider this, even if everything the shooter believed were true, why shoot a bunch of innocent people including a little girl, and why Gifford? I think this guy had personal issues, and he expressed his problems in a specific direction. If he hadn't been into the ideas he had, and didn't care about politics, he probably would have shot up the college campus instead. This guy was just plain psycho and hateful.
nismaratwork said:So, yes... What the shooter believed doesn't matter... why the shooter fixated on these issues... probably the environment, but it wasn't going to be "fixate on government or just get sane!". Above all, his writing again seems to be about mind control, and that is often the realm of people who strongly believe that their thoughts are being influenced by an external force. That doesn't mean you're insane, maybe just misinformed, or GOK... it is however a good place to start.
jreelawg said:That's true, but can they all really be fixed? The shooter in this instance is clearly crazy, but I don't like the idea of him getting treated for 5 or 10 years in a mental hospital and being sent free. Many of these people who are crazy are capable of pretending to be sane. I don't know what the best procedure is for these type of psycho killers who have neurological disorders? My opinion is that for clear cut, and I mean really clear cut cases like this one, the shooter should be fast tracked to execution crazy or not.
arildno said:As somebody has suggested elsewhere, Loughner's grudge against Giffords may have started with that in her "Thank-You card", she mis-spelt his name as "Loughney".
Within a deranged mind obsessed with mind-control-through-grammar, this might be construed as a deeply sinister message.
Thus, I am gradually changing my position to that Loughner might, indeed, have a specific[(I] grudge against Giffords personally
jreelawg said:I agree. If a person however were writing things which required their own internal self discussions to decipher, and therefor made no logical sense to the reader, yet were talking about mundane things without a confrontational tone, you might mistake them for a poet. It is the fact they appear to be disturbed which raises the flag, you can tell they are ready to snap.
jreelawg said:Me too except that he shot a bunch of other people he probably didn't even know. Like one person said, he routinely laughs at things which are sad.
Dr Phillip Resnick said:it reminds me of Cho, the uh, Virginia tech shooter as someone who engaged in a lot of minor, inappropriate activity. Scaring fellow students, scaring professors, and uh then other people NOT, um, even though he went to a mental health clinic once, ah, people not putting the pieces together.
WhoWee said:I'm not clear on the timeline - this apparently happened before he ever purchased a gun?
I caught the end of an interview earlier (again only heard part) that inferred the sheriff's office (apparently they monitor gun purchases locally?) might have dropped the ball. I'll try to find something to clarify - again, I only heard part of the piece - label this IMO for now.
jreelawg said:Me too except that he shot a bunch of other people he probably didn't even know.
Actually, they did pursue it with his parents. See my post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3077829&postcount=409edward said:The College administration never pursued it or reported it.