Would some criminals not commit crimes if

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In summary, the conversation discusses whether some criminals would not commit crimes if they were brought up in a different environment, and if so, should they still be punished. They also touch on the idea of societal responsibility for crimes and whether a restorative approach should be taken instead of a retributive one. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the purpose of the criminal justice system and the role of society in protecting individuals.
  • #1
tarekatpf
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Would some criminals not commit crimes if...

... they were reared in a different environment, and if they would not, should we still punish them?

Such as, some criminals might have not commit the crime if they did not have a history of abuse by family members or other members in the society. Or some criminals may have not been able to handle poverty, because of their poor social intelligence which might have been affected by his relationship with other family members? Is it possible that they wouldn't commit the crime if they didn't have such a history? ( Of course, it's never 100% down to the genetic makeup of the criminal, since conditions that negatively affect social relationships and to which they were genetically predisposed can be controlled by altering the environment, at least, to a functioning level. Though it may not be true for some cases. )

And if they wouldn't, how can we conclude that it was the criminal's fault ( since, they might not commit the crime if they had a better family or social or economic life ) and we should punish them?
 
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  • #2
What about the crimes of society (it is not like groups evolved to be rational or sane) and that the individual cannot be an innocent victim of the irrationality of a group ("When a group of people come together to make a decision, every demon in the psychological bestiary will be summoned. Conformity, rationalization, stereotyping, delusions of grandeur - they all come out to play, and no one is willing to fight them back into hell...") - “It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society” -Jiddu Krishnamurti.
 
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  • #3
julian said:
What about the crimes of society (it is not like groups evolved to be rational or sane) and that the individual cannot be an innocent victim of the irrationality of a group ("When a group of people come together to make a decision, every demon in the psychological bestiary will be summoned. Conformity, rationalization, stereotyping, delusions of grandeur - they all come out to play, and no one is willing to fight them back into hell...") - “It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society” -Jiddu Krishnamurti.

Yes, that's true. And that's why when change is needed, the whole society has to change together. That's a difficult task, but not an impossible one.
 
  • #4
Do you "punish" a rabid dog by killing it?

I think not.

So, if your prime concern is in a frankly silly name shifting game concerning the practice of incarceration, that we shouldn't call it "punishment", but something else entirely, I don't see the point of the thread.
 
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  • #5
arildno said:
Do you "punish" a rabid dog by killing it?

I think not.

So, if your prime concern is in a frankly silly name shifting game concerning the practice of incarceration, that we shouldn't call it "punishment", but something else entirely, I don't see the point of the thread.

Rabid dogs are curable. Many criminals are fixable.

How about a restorative, rather than a retributive approach towards dealing with criminals?
 
  • #6
Why should we cure?
 
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  • #7
arildno said:
Why should we cure?

Why do we want to cure anybody?
 
  • #8
tarekatpf said:
... they were reared in a different environment, and if they would not, should we still punish them?

Such as, some criminals might have not commit the crime if they did not have a history of abuse by family members or other members in the society. Or some criminals may have not been able to handle poverty, because of their poor social intelligence which might have been affected by his relationship with other family members? Is it possible that they wouldn't commit the crime if they didn't have such a history? ( Of course, it's never 100% down to the genetic makeup of the criminal, since conditions that negatively affect social relationships and to which they were genetically predisposed can be controlled by altering the environment, at least, to a functioning level. Though it may not be true for some cases. )

And if they wouldn't, how can we conclude that it was the criminal's fault ( since, they might not commit the crime if they had a better family or social or economic life ) and we should punish them?

oh fun! not sure of your age but in my early teens these kinda of philosophical questions popped up in my head, along with "hey there isn't any "real" right/wrong, good/bad, it's defined.

the criminal code too is defined, and more less based on prior experience. Most often it's great. Like no stealing, not violence. Sometimes it's bad, like putting drug addicts/abusers in jail.

All that said it is all quite fair, quality governments protect citizens from unjust laws mostly via charters/constitutions like the bill of rights or charter or rights & freedoms.

One thing I know for certain is, if someone steals from me or physically attacks me I don't give two hoots of your up bringing, it's not a cause/effect thing...it's a correlation thing. no excuse imo, and at the end of the day that's all the criminal code is. And majority agree more less with the punishments/defining of crimes.
 
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  • #9
This may vary based on where you are from.
But in Canada the stated goal of the criminal justice system isn't to "punish" criminals but rather to rehabilitate them back into a functioning member of society.
However the results are somewhat dubious these days.

While I would conceed that the actions of many criminals stem from enviromental behaviours. As sentient beings they are still ultimately responsible for their actions, and as such must be held accountable for them.

Further it is still the responsibilty of society to protect individuals, and the easiest method in achieving this the segergation of the criminal element from the rest of society.
 
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  • #10
Agreed, though I see it more as a "parental" thing. In that prison is just an extreme case of removing your rights (more specifically though, privileges, for example cruel and unsual punishment isn't removed because you re a prisoner) . Not sure prisoners can even vote. In the case of my fine for not paying for a sticker in time, if I don't pay that fine in time I lose the privilege to drive.

Hopefully the OP doesn't fall into thinking this is a citizens being ruled by government. The government is put there by citizens. So if the OP doesn't agree with certain laws/punishments, it's more less the majority of citizens they disagree with...not the "enforcer/executor " of the laws/punishments.
 
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  • #11
tarekatpf said:
Why do we want to cure anybody?

Perhaps because they have the moral worth obliging others to cure them, in contrast to criminals, who by their own actions, have thrown that worth away?
 
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  • #12
nitsuj said:
oh fun! not sure of your age but in my early teens these kinda of philosophical questions popped up in my head, along with "hey there isn't any "real" right/wrong, good/bad, it's defined.

the criminal code too is defined, and more less based on prior experience. Most often it's great. Like no stealing, not violence. Sometimes it's bad, like putting drug addicts/abusers in jail.

All that said it is all quite fair, quality governments protect citizens from unjust laws mostly via charters/constitutions like the bill of rights or charter or rights & freedoms.

One thing I know for certain is, if someone steals from me or physically attacks me I don't give two hoots of your up bringing, it's not a cause/effect thing...it's a correlation thing. no excuse imo, and at the end of the day that's all the criminal code is. And majority agree more less with the punishments/defining of crimes.

Not all of the criminals are product of social anomalies, but most of them are. When you find correlation between criminals and their defective upbringing that strong, it is cause-effect. That of course doesn't exclude other causes, but upbringing is the major one.

cpscdave said:
This may vary based on where you are from.
But in Canada the stated goal of the criminal justice system isn't to "punish" criminals but rather to rehabilitate them back into a functioning member of society.
However the results are somewhat dubious these days.

While I would conceed that the actions of many criminals stem from enviromental behaviours. As sentient beings they are still ultimately responsible for their actions, and as such must be held accountable for them.

Further it is still the responsibilty of society to protect individuals, and the easiest method in achieving this the segergation of the criminal element from the rest of society.

But better for the society is first segregate them, then rehabilitate them as countries like Canada, Norway do.

arildno said:
Perhaps because they have the moral worth obliging others to cure them, in contrast to criminals, who by their own actions, have thrown that worth away?

"Their own actions?" Social factors contribute to their actions as well.

nitsuj said:
Agreed, though I see it more as a "parental" thing. In that prison is just an extreme case of removing your rights (more specifically though, privileges, for example cruel and unsual punishment isn't removed because you re a prisoner) . Not sure prisoners can even vote. In the case of my fine for not paying for a sticker in time, if I don't pay that fine in time I lose the privilege to drive.

Hopefully the OP doesn't fall into thinking this is a citizens being ruled by government. The government is put there by citizens. So if the OP doesn't agree with certain laws/punishments, it's more less the majority of citizens they disagree with...not the "enforcer/executor " of the laws/punishments.

Right, but I want to know why the majority of the society thinks that retributive approach is useful for the society.
 
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  • #13
The system creates so called criminals. Without these criminals their would be no judges, mayors, police officers,
politicians, modern day slavery. etc. It is the prison industrial complex research it.

I believe that prisoners should be rehabilitated. Oftentimes a drug offender is incarcerated for petty marijuana only
to turn into a cruel and hardened criminal in jail. Les Miserables is a great example of how if a convict is shown genuine compassion he can be of better service to society. Ie better then a citizen who was never in an abyss.
 
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  • #14
tarekatpf said:
But better for the society is first segregate them, then rehabilitate them as countries like Canada, Norway do.

I am personally against the death penatly in 99% of cases. There are however a few cases that are so horrific, that the shake the foundations of society. Cases like this, and the crimes commited being so horrible that the chance of legitimate rehabilitation is 0.
The best example I can think of is the Paul Bernado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernado) case.
 
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  • #15
TitoSmooth said:
Oftentimes a drug offender is incarcerated for petty marijuana only
to turn into a cruel and hardened criminal in jail.

Try and support that claim, presuming youre referring to "western" countries. For example in Canada "petty" marijuana is oftentimes merely confiscated. If the officer had the option to fine the individual surely that would be the "punishment". If the person is sent to the courts, often as a substitute for non existing fines the punishment is a donation.

surely even in Texas possession of a petty amount wouldn't result in prison time for first time offenders.
 
  • #16
tarekatpf said:
Not all of the criminals are product of social anomalies, but most of them are. When you find correlation between criminals and their defective upbringing that strong, it is cause-effect. That of course doesn't exclude other causes, but upbringing is the major one.

It's not cause effect, not every terrible upbringing results in criminal behavior. That's crazy! to think those criminals who had terrible upbrinings are autonomous/not at fault for their actions.

If you were a judge, would you suggest to put the caretakers of a criminal in prison instead because they provided a terrible upbringing for the law breaking individual? Ultimately a line must be drawn. Heck what about a case of manslaughter? perhaps as a result of a bar fight. Would you suggest that no one is at fault...that accidents happen?

What about the Menendaze brothers (sorry don't know the proper spelling of their name, didn't want to google it) do you think they are justified in their actions?
 
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  • #17
nitsuj said:
Try and support that claim, presuming youre referring to "western" countries. For example in Canada "petty" marijuana is oftentimes merely confiscated. If the officer had the option to fine the individual surely that would be the "punishment". If the person is sent to the courts, often as a substitute for non existing fines the punishment is a donation.

surely even in Texas possession of a petty amount wouldn't result in prison time for first time offenders.

Depends what color you are in America bro.
 
  • #18
TitoSmooth said:
Depends what color you are; in America.

Ah I see your perspective now, including the comment about "Prison business". I agree with you on that, it resembles a business model/industry.
 
  • #19
The best remedy for inprisonment is raising the consciousness of urban communities. Sadly education ussually falls on deaf ears. It should not halt people from informing others. The legal system has to be revamped for modern times in america. And make all punishments equal for eveyone. Bankinh scandal is a prime example

Epistemology in regards to the media plays a huge role on peoplea develpments.
 
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  • #20
TitoSmooth said:
The system creates so called criminals. Without these criminals their would be no judges, mayors, police officers,
politicians, modern day slavery. etc. It is the prison industrial complex research it.

I believe that prisoners should be rehabilitated. Oftentimes a drug offender is incarcerated for petty marijuana only
to turn into a cruel and hardened criminal in jail. Les Miserables is a great example of how if a convict is shown genuine compassion he can be of better service to society. Ie better then a citizen who was never in an abyss.

Of course, not all of the criminals are product of social anomalies. You couldn't stop some people from being criminals no matter whatever the environment is.
 
  • #21
cpscdave said:
I am personally against the death penatly in 99% of cases. There are however a few cases that are so horrific, that the shake the foundations of society. Cases like this, and the crimes commited being so horrible that the chance of legitimate rehabilitation is 0.
The best example I can think of is the Paul Bernado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernado) case.

Yes, true. Some criminals are just too horrible for consideration of rehabilitation for them. I have nothing to offer for serial killers, mass murderers etc, because the risk of their getting re-engaged in crime is too much.
 
  • #22
Guess "terrible" upbringing includes both ends of the class spectrum

Link to the story
 
  • #23
tarekatpf said:
Yes, true. Some criminals are just too horrible for consideration of rehabilitation for them. I have nothing to offer for serial killers, mass murderers etc, because the risk of their getting re-engaged in crime is too much.

If I recall correctly sexual assault types crimes often repeat themselves, same with DUI, same with...on and on.
 
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  • #24
nitsuj said:
Guess "terrible" upbringing includes both ends of the class spectrum

Link to the story

He did kill 4 people.
 
  • #25
nitsuj said:
If I recall correctly sexual assault types crimes often repeat themselves, same with DUI, same with...on and on.

In Norway, reoffence rate is less than 15%, and in the USA it's nearly 70%. Restorative vs retributive approach. Can you see the difference?
 
  • #26
This thread has derailed into personal opinion without citations. Closed.
 

1. Would some criminals not commit crimes if they had better opportunities?

It is possible that some criminals may be less likely to commit crimes if they had better opportunities, such as access to education, stable employment, and support systems. However, it is important to note that there are many factors that contribute to criminal behavior, and simply providing better opportunities may not completely eliminate crime.

2. Would some criminals not commit crimes if they faced harsher punishment?

There is no clear answer to this question, as different individuals may respond differently to harsher punishment. Some studies suggest that harsher punishments may act as a deterrent for certain types of crimes, while others argue that it may not have a significant impact on reducing crime rates. Additionally, there are concerns about the fairness and effectiveness of harsher punishments in the criminal justice system.

3. Would some criminals not commit crimes if they had a better understanding of the consequences?

It is possible that some criminals may have a better understanding of the consequences of their actions if they have access to education and information about the criminal justice system. However, it is important to recognize that many factors, such as mental health, poverty, and systemic inequalities, can contribute to criminal behavior and may not be fully addressed by simply providing information about consequences.

4. Would some criminals not commit crimes if they had a stronger moral compass?

Again, this is a complex question as there are many factors that can influence an individual's moral compass. While providing moral education and guidance may have a positive impact on some individuals, it may not be enough to prevent all criminal behavior. Additionally, it is important to address underlying issues such as trauma, mental illness, and societal influences that may also impact an individual's moral compass.

5. Would some criminals not commit crimes if they had better access to resources?

Limited access to resources, such as housing, healthcare, and social support, can contribute to criminal behavior. Providing better access to resources may help to reduce crime rates, but it is important to also address systemic issues and inequalities that can create barriers to accessing these resources in the first place.

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