Thermodynamics and was looking at the second law

In summary, the second law of thermodynamics states that entropy increases in isolated systems and does not specify what happens to entropy in non-isolated systems. There are different formulations of the second law, with Clausius's formulation being the most important. This formulation only applies to isolated systems. However, there are other formulations that consider non-isolated systems. Overall, the concept of entropy is still being studied and understood by physicists.
  • #1
misogynisticfeminist
370
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I'm new to thermodynamics and was looking at the second law. From what I know, the 2nd law is constantly violated locally (in a non-isolated system), but this violation locally causes an increase in entropy in an isolated system. Am I right here? or is my understanding flawed? if its not, then are there any examples of this?
 
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  • #2
the second law is dealing with both system and its envirinment.
you can not tell anything by ignoring one of them. ok?
 
  • #3
misogynisticfeminist said:
I'm new to thermodynamics and was looking at the second law. From what I know, the 2nd law is constantly violated locally (in a non-isolated system), but this violation locally causes an increase in entropy in an isolated system. Am I right here? or is my understanding flawed? if its not, then are there any examples of this?


The second law states that entropy increases in isolated systems (as it can be shown using Boltzmann's kinetic equation).The only isolated system physicsist know is the entire Universe,so applying the second law,in the entire Universe the entropy increases with time (and viceversa,though i don't know anybody having proven the fact that time flow is inextricably linked to entropy increase (maybe smb proved that,but i haven't read about it,but I'd like to)).
To say that
misogynisticfeminist said:
the 2nd law is constantly violated locally (in a non-isolated system), but this violation locally causes an increase in entropy in an isolated system.
is virtually wrong because the second law doesn't tell what happens to the entropy in non-isolated systems.It could be constant,increase,decrease,depends on the interactions between the studied system and the environment.

I've allways considered this (Rudolf Clausius 1865(?)) formulation of the second law as the most important achivement in physics in the XIX-th century,alongside Faraday's 1831 discovery of electromagnetic induction.
 
  • #4
^ hmmmm, understood, so can it be safe to say that the second law does not apply to non-isolated systems ??
 
  • #5
It does,but in other formulations.Clausius's formulation refers only to isolated systems and i guess it's the only one of them to do so.
The thermodynamics teacher told us that classical equilibrium thermodynamics has two formulations.The empirical one,and the axiomatical/theoretical one (due mostly to Gibbs,hence "neogibbsian" formulation of classical equilibrium thermodynamics).The former has a long history,and has numerous formulations for its principles (as I recall,they're 5 of them (i.e. principles)),and especially for the second principle.The latter is based upon the definition and the properties of the thermodynamical function called ENTROPY.It's formulation of the second principle includes Clausius formulation for the second principle in the so-called "CTPCN" (apud Clausius-Thomson-Carathéodory-Planck-Nernst) formulation (which is the name for the first formulation stated above) and it's essential to be taught for its beautiful derivation from classical &/V quantum equilibrium statistical mechanics.
 
  • #6
dextercioby said:
I've allways considered this (Rudolf Clausius 1865(?)) formulation of the second law as the most important achivement in physics...
Clausius's formulation refers only to isolated systems and i guess it's the only one of them to do so.

Thanks for quoting me. Yes, in fact in those years we were a nice group of guys trying to figure out what the hell was entropy. :biggrin:
 
  • #7
Clausius2 said:
Thanks for quoting me. Yes, in fact in those years we were a nice group of guys trying to figure out what the hell was entropy. :biggrin:

Dann Du muss ein Deutsche sein,nich wahr??
 
  • #8
dextercioby said:
Dann Du muss ein Deutsche sein,nich wahr??

Selbstverständlich obgleich ich normalerweise meinen Feiertag in Benidorm verbringe.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

What is the second law of thermodynamics?

The second law of thermodynamics states that in any energy conversion or transfer process, the total amount of energy remains constant, but the amount of usable energy decreases. This means that energy tends to disperse or become less organized over time.

What is the difference between the first and second law of thermodynamics?

The first law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of conservation of energy, states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred or converted from one form to another. The second law of thermodynamics expands on this by stating that while energy may be conserved, it becomes less usable over time.

What is the relationship between entropy and the second law of thermodynamics?

Entropy is a measure of the disorder or randomness in a system. The second law of thermodynamics can be stated in terms of entropy as "the entropy of a closed system tends to increase over time." This means that as energy disperses and becomes less organized, the entropy of a system increases.

What are some real-world examples of the second law of thermodynamics?

One example is the cooling of a hot cup of coffee. The heat energy from the coffee will eventually disperse into the surrounding environment, making the coffee cooler and less organized. Another example is the internal combustion engine, where the energy from burning fuel is converted into motion, but some of it is lost as heat and cannot be used again.

How does the second law of thermodynamics relate to the concept of efficiency?

The second law of thermodynamics puts a limit on the efficiency of any energy conversion process. This is because some energy will always be lost as heat, which is a less usable form of energy. The more efficient a process is, the less energy is lost as heat and the closer it gets to achieving the maximum possible efficiency, known as the Carnot efficiency.

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