What is it about George W. Bush

[Jimmy Snyder]

that brings out the liar and the hypocrite in these pseudo-Americans? They're here for the hors d'oeuvres. Then they say they will leave, But they're still here for dessert.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/leave.asp"

Are they always this way, or only about issues they deem important.

 

[EnumaElish]

I am not sure I'd want them to leave. AFAIK, Hollywood movies is a big ticket item on the list of U.S. exports.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I am not sure I'd want them to leave. AFAIK, Hollywood movies is a big ticket item on the list of U.S. exports.

It's a money thing?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

that brings out the liar and the hypocrite in these pseudo-Americans? They're here for the hors d'oeuvres. Then they say they will leave, But they're still here for dessert.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/leave.asp"

Are they always this way, or only about issues they deem important.

Many people including me considered Bush's reelection to be the ultimate violation of traditional American values. And no, I have never come close to this level of outrage and such a sense of betrayal, and I'm not aware of celebrities who have either. If this is the kind of country that people want, they can have it! And we tried to leave, but the practical aspects of doing so - friends, family, jobs - are no small challenge. This is likely true for celebrities as well.

I find it interesting that one finds leaving, or at least the genuine desire to leave, to be less American than supporting a civil war. From my pov, leaving is the ultimate form of peaceful protest. But it appears that not everyone supports the right of peaceful protest; at least not support that is free of disdain and malace, which in itself is an example of why we want to leave.

Try reading the Constitution and esp the Bill of Rights. It can quite enlightening.

 

[russ_watters]

I find it interesting that one finds leaving, or at least the genuine desire to leave, to be less American than supporting a civil war.

It shouldn't be surprising...

From my pov, leaving is the ultimate form of peaceful protest.

Oh, is that the ideal that America was founded on? I thought it was founded on fighting for your rights. Peaceful protest is a relatively new thing.

Btw, fighting doesn't necessarily mean with guns. "Peaceful protest", on the other hand, is just useless bellyaching. This is a country built on action.

But it appears that not everyone supports the right of peaceful protest.

Au contraire. People are more than welcome to protest by hanging a flag upside-down, carrying a sign, or leaving the country if they wish. But they shouldn't be deluded into thinking that these actions actually matter.

at least not support that is free of disdain and malace, which in itself is an example of why we want to leave.

The reason for the disdain is the impotence/futility of the act. It is useless.

Try reading the Constitution and esp the Bill of Rights. It can quite enlightening.

The Constitution says nothing about the usefullness (or lack thereof) of "peaceful protest". Try reading the Declaration if Independence or Common Sense instead.

Anyway, yeah, jimmy - these actions fit quite well with the ideology they spring from.

 

[lisab]

I, too, have been living the last few years incredulous at what I've been seeing. I try to be compassionate, try to understand: OK, people got SCARED on 9/11. Down to their bones, scared. When people are in that state, they don't think -- they're reacting from their reptile brains. So I rationalize that that's why they gave up their freedoms...why they even gave up habeus corpus! It's just so hard for me to understand, so disappointing.

But what I've found helps me to feel better is getting involed. I've never been a "joiner" but I stared working on political campaigns. It's not fun work and I don't enjoy it, but I had to do something. Yelling at my TV just upsets my family life and wasn't making me feel better.

Don't leave. We need all voices, even if right now people don't want to hear dissention. Besides, when I'm working the phones or going door-to-door and I find someone with your POV it makes my night!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Many people including me considered Bush's reelection to be the ultimate violation of traditional American values. And no, I have never come close to this level of outrage and such a sense of betrayal, and I'm not aware of celebrities who have either. If this is the kind of country that people want, they can have it! And we tried to leave, but the practical aspects of doing so - friends, family, jobs - are no small challenge. This is likely true for celebrities as well.

I find it interesting that one finds leaving, or at least the genuine desire to leave, to be less American than supporting a civil war. From my pov, leaving is the ultimate form of peaceful protest. But it appears that not everyone supports the right of peaceful protest; at least not support that is free of disdain and malace, which in itself is an example of why we want to leave.

Try reading the Constitution and esp the Bill of Rights. It can quite enlightening.

The issue I raised was not that they are leaving. It is that they are NOT leaving. When they said they were leaving, they knew they had friends, family and jobs. Yet they said it. Was it a lie, or was it just a casual statement, tossed off with no conviction? How can you imagine an act of greater disdain than to say you are leaving. Do they then take umbrage at the disdain that returns? Disdain? They have no idea what my ancestors lived through in Europe. It was a deadly disdain. And they quail at thought that after they leave, some people won't think well of them? What wusses. Why won't they stand behind their own words? This isn't non-violent protest, it's non-something, but it isn't protest. It's dishonest, disrespectful, and disambulatory.

What does the Constitution, and esp the Bill of Rights say that impinges on this discussion?

 

[Evo]

Would anyone care if any of those "celebrities" left? Alec Baldwin? Would it matter if he moved to another planet? I say we make them move. I think so called "celebrities" think way too highly of themselves.

Funny, being a dual national, I could easily move to France, most of my family lives there anyway. I'll gladly stay in the US. My mother sacrificed too much to move to the US so her children wouldn't grow up in France. Not that it's not a lovely place to visit, I just wouldn't want to live there.

 

[drankin]

If we ever lose the right to "bear arms", we won't be much different than many other developed countries. Then I might consider moving on. Somewhere "Down-Under" looks to be nice.

 

[EnumaElish]

It's a money thing?

There is the issue of who's going to pay for the social security. Short of huge productivity increases or more immigration, my money is on Hollywood.

But from a camaraderie point of view, you can also look at them as exploited workers brainwashed by the very scripts they've been enacting (or directing). Some are even unionized. (Reagan was, wasn't he?)

 

[denverdoc]

If we ever lose the right to "bear arms", we won't be much different than many other developed countries. Then I might consider moving on. Somewhere "Down-Under" looks to be nice.

Well my rockets are a lot bigger than your guns, but aren't designed to harm anyone-au contraire, which may be the sole reason besides family keeping me here. I don't know that I would find matters better anywhere, but to participate in a competely hypocritical and sham democracy which incarcerates people at the highest rate anywhere and hasn't a nickel for health care--to me it sends out th wrong message.

 

[mheslep]

and hasn't a nickel for health care--to me it sends out th wrong message.

Correct, not a nickel:
Medicare: $440B (2007)
Medicaid: $295B (2004)
Veterans care (TriCare), Prescription Drug Benefit, etc, etc.

 

[mheslep]

Well Alec was going to leave but he realized the value of his family ties and stuck around to shttp://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_audio/0419_baldwin.mp3"

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Correct, not a nickel:
Medicare: $440B (2007)
Medicaid: $295B (2004)
Veterans care (TriCare), Prescription Drug Benefit, etc, etc.

Another beautiful theory slayed by an ugly fact.

Here's a site that shows the number of refugees around the world.
http://www.irr.org.uk/statistics/refugees.html"
There are many sites that provide the same kind of information and I have no way of determining which is 'best', but this one looks OK. They found 8.4 million liars and hypocrites at the end of 2005 were more willing than than our own to leave their friends, family, and jobs to seek a better life. Better life? They're in refugee camps for crying out loud. Compared to these, our native grown self-righteous hypocrites look positively well dressed.

 

[Poop-Loops]

If we ever lose the right to "bear arms", we won't be much different than many other developed countries. Then I might consider moving on. Somewhere "Down-Under" looks to be nice.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

What's the point of taking away our guns if we won't use them when we DO have them?

Currently our rights are and have been siphoned away. Slowly, but surely. Our money, too. But anybody who tries to do anything about it gets knocked down and called anti-American, etc. So why would they WANT to take our guns away?

This is especially true of the people who think of taking away guns as being the "last straw". So what do they do? Find a way around it. Let you keep your boom stick, and take something else without you even giving a damn about it.

 

[drankin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

What's the point of taking away our guns if we won't use them when we DO have them?

Currently our rights are and have been siphoned away. Slowly, but surely. Our money, too. But anybody who tries to do anything about it gets knocked down and called anti-American, etc. So why would they WANT to take our guns away?

This is especially true of the people who think of taking away guns as being the "last straw". So what do they do? Find a way around it. Let you keep your boom stick, and take something else without you even giving a damn about it.

I don't completely follow you. How is it I cannot use my gun?

 

[jaap de vries]

It all makes sense! these celebrities threatened the not so bright and celebrity adoring Americans (not a small demographic) with the absence of the blessing of their presence in case of Bush' realection.

Regretfully the bluff was called and these people had to return to make crappy movies and we got a crappy president.

It never hurts to try!

 

[jaap de vries]

It shouldn't be surprising... Oh, is that the ideal that America was founded on? I thought it was founded on fighting for your rights. Peaceful protest is a relatively new thing.

Who's rights are we exactly fighting for?

The only time in the History of the USA that people felt they had to fight for their rights was when some people felt strongly it was their god given right to whip a black man around the cotton fields.
I cannot remember any other occasion?!

 

[mheslep]

Who's rights are we exactly fighting for?

The only time in the History of the USA that people felt they had to fight for their rights was when some people felt strongly it was their god given right to whip a black man around the cotton fields.
I cannot remember any other occasion?!

Then to help there's a little reminder, next time you are home, out at http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/ne.php" , 6 mi E of Maastricht. 8300 reminders there.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

these celebrities threatened the not so bright and celebrity adoring Americans (not a small demographic) with the absence of the blessing of their presence in case of Bush' realection.

Good point. They never had any intention of doing anything, but rather of getting other people to do something. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that these creeps didn't even vote.

The only time in the History of the USA that people felt they had to fight for their rights was when some people felt strongly it was their god given right to whip a black man around the cotton fields.
I cannot remember any other occasion?!

Once we fought for the right to drink domestically grown tea.

 

[jaap de vries]

Good point. They never had any intention of doing anything, but rather of getting other people to do something. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that these creeps didn't even vote.Once we fought for the right to drink domestically grown tea.

The tea thing was before the USA was formed

 

[jaap de vries]

Then to help there's a little reminder, next time you are home, out at http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/ne.php" , 6 mi E of Maastricht. 8300 reminders there.

Absolutely great sacrifice that created a turning point in history, however this is not my point.
Note that the context was protesting governmental policies and I can only recall one such occasion unless you want to include nut cases like Timothy McVeigh.

 

[mheslep]

Who's rights are we exactly fighting for?

The only time in the History of the USA that people felt they had to fight for their rights was when some people felt strongly it was their god given right to whip a black man around the cotton fields.
I cannot remember any other occasion?!

Absolutely great sacrifice that created a turning point in history, however this is not my point.



Note that the context was protesting governmental policies and I can only recall one such occasion unless you want to include nut cases like Timothy McVeigh.

Ok please clarify. You're referring only to internal rebellion? Ok, but certainly that is only a limited case of fighting for one's rights. External powers will certainly take them away if they can: 1812, WWI/II, Cold War, ...

 

[Poop-Loops]

I don't completely follow you. How is it I cannot use my gun?

Please reread my post. You missed the entire point.

You CAN use your gun. But will you?

What I am saying is, people who scream about owning guns being their right suddenly don't care when other rights are taken away. So what's the point of taking away guns if people will not use them anyway?

 

[russ_watters]

Who's rights are we exactly fighting for?

The only time in the History of the USA that people felt they had to fight for their rights was when some people felt strongly it was their god given right to whip a black man around the cotton fields.
I cannot remember any other occasion?!

I don't know what you are talking about. Human rights are pretty clear-cut. The fact that some racists kill people they don't like doesn't have anything to do with anything. That's not a right regardless of what they think.

 

[jaap de vries]

I don't know what you are talking about. Human rights are pretty clear-cut. The fact that some racists kill people they don't like doesn't have anything to do with anything. That's not a right regardless of what they think.

You stated that the US is founded on fighting for your rights. You are correct in the sense that that is literally how the US was founded. The whole right to bare arms is based on being able to defend yourself against a government that has gone astray.

Now, my point is that the only time in US history people felt forced to "fight" for their right against a government that has gone in their eyes astray is during the civil war. Note that we are not dealing with "some racists" but rather a large group of people that felt their livelihood was taking away, mainly by prohibition.

The only other "peaceful" fight against the government came from MLK.

I think US citizens have been very non-critical with regards to their government. In 9 out of 10 western countries the Iraq lies would have led to a crisis most likely followed with the forced resignation of the government or re-elections, here it seemed of very little consequence.

I don't think most people in any western Country really knows what it means to fight for ones right, and if the US was ever founded on this principle it certainly is not anymore, and that is a sad conclusion.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Every two years we overthrow our government.

 

[drankin]

Please reread my post. You missed the entire point.

You CAN use your gun. But will you?

What I am saying is, people who scream about owning guns being their right suddenly don't care when other rights are taken away. So what's the point of taking away guns if people will not use them anyway?

I've reread your post as you asked. Your analogy is not valid IMO, because the right to bear arms is ultimately for the purpose of defending the people against a tyrannical government. That is the last straw. Without arms, we are defenseless to do anything about it. In Constitutional theory (as I understand it), armed citizens could come together, form a militia and defend their Constitional rights if necessary.

 

[rewebster]

Has anyone else noticed that bush is more coherent in his speech, speaking (abilities), his ability to answer questions more 'on topic' and not presenting what he's saying in a 'non-self-centered' way (fewer "I, me, my mine's"), is more concerned with things in a 'presidential' way and speaks of those things with less 'glib' in his tone, and not needing his cheat sheets to remember what he's talking about lately?

My first thoughts is that he is drinking less, taking less drugs (prescribed, and/or otherwise), or maybe on better drugs, and/or (and probably) less of both of the above.

Of course, we are seeing less of him also, but he seems to have a different demeanor; and, is more concerned in items of a national nature, rather than trying to advance just his own party, his own self interests, and the RNC's platform.

For example:

"Bush shifts on climate change"

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/16/bush.climate.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

So are all of these changes part of his goal to try to leave a 'sweet taste' in people's minds before he leaves office?

I personally don't think it will help a lot. People (some) have refrained from a full criticism of him and his presidency 'while he is still in office'.----

I've been saying this since before the 2004 election, that he is, and probably will be, counted as the very worst president we (America) have ever had.

 

[lisab]

I haven't noticed that he's more lucid, but then I don't really pay attention any more.

I think people are refraining from criticism because his performance has been so poor, it's like kicking someone when they're down. And everyone is just soooo, soooo tired of this administration...I know I'm just weary of them, all of them.

 

[humanino]

Funny, being a dual national, I could easily move to France, most of my family lives there anyway.

Moving to France to avoid a president is not a good idea anymore :tongue2: :rofl:

 

[quadraphonics]

You stated that the US is founded on fighting for your rights. You are correct in the sense that that is literally how the US was founded. The whole right to bare arms is based on being able to defend yourself against a government that has gone astray.

Now, my point is that the only time in US history people felt forced to "fight" for their right against a government that has gone in their eyes astray is during the civil war.

Wait, in the first paragraph, you're talking about "fighting for your rights," but in the second this is equated to "fighting *against your own government* for your rights." And, even then, you seem to take "fight" to mean "declare war." To be honest, I think you need to either include the provisos from the beginning, or aknowledge that there are countless other examples of Americans fighting for their rights. The sufferage movement was one you skipped, as well as the movement against Prohibition. There are innumerable smaller examples beyond that, from the fights against the draft, to the opposition to McCarthyism, to the consumer rights movement.

I think US citizens have been very non-critical with regards to their government. In 9 out of 10 western countries the Iraq lies would have led to a crisis most likely followed with the forced resignation of the government or re-elections, here it seemed of very little consequence.

Funny, I seem to remember substantially more than 10% of Western countries participating in the invasion/occuption. Also, you may recall the Republicans getting hammered in the 2006 elections, and widespread expectations that this trend will continue this year.