Am I right to fear chiropracter practice?

[Nano-Passion]

I've been having a nagging uncomfortable feeling on my neck, which I suspect is due to my bad posture. Around the same time that the symptom surfaced, my feet are chronically falling asleep and it hurts at times to the point that I have to avoid sitting on a chair. Whether that is a function of the problem of my neck is another question, but it could easily be a cause from the length of time that I sit on a daily basis. Though I do also notice that blood has a tougher time flowing through my body, and I'm particularly susceptible to having that "hanging upside down" feeling if I bend over at the waist.

At any rate, I think I might have to visit a chiropractor. I've been putting it off for a bit, I feel uncomfortable visiting a chiropractor as I've heard bad things about them. One person even died.

Is my worry justified or can I go with an easy mind?

 

[Evo]

Don't go to a chiropractor, go to a doctor and get a real diagnosis. You may have problems that need to be medically treated.

 

[Darken-Sol]

my girl went to the chiropractor for her neck now she seems hooked. she's spent about 800 in the last three months. for that much i'd just suffer. seriously i just stretch and work the muscles. doing construction has taught me how to take care of my body for cheap.

 

[micromass]

Please go to an actual doctor. The issues you are having might or might not be indicative of a deeper problem, but there's no way for you to know that.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Don't go to a chiropractor, go to a doctor and get a real diagnosis. You may have problems that need to be medically treated.

Hey, not a bad idea.

my girl went to the chiropractor for her neck now she seems hooked. she's spent about 800 in the last three months. for that much i'd just suffer. seriously i just stretch and work the muscles. doing construction has taught me how to take care of my body for cheap.

Eek! That's more than my car expenses. :grumpy:

Please go to an actual doctor. The issues you are having might or might not be indicative of a deeper problem, but there's no way for you to know that.

True, and I will in a few days.

 

[Monique]

Don't visit a chiropractor, but a doctor and follow that (unless advised otherwise) with physiotherapy: you'll get exercises to strengthen the right muscles.

 

[Borek]

I always wonder what chiropractors did to you all that you are dismissing them so easily.

 

[turbo]

It might be worth-while to consider consulting with an Osteophatic doctor. They are medical doctors with chiropractic training. I don't like going to MDs who always seem to have prescription pads at the ready for every ailment, so I compromise by seeing doctors who have a bit of balance in their training.

 

[Evo]

I always wonder what chiropractors did to you all that you are dismissing them so easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism

 

[Borek]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism

Seems like another cultural difference then. I know two chiropractors here (luckily I don't need their help, but Marzena does - and they both helped her on multiple occasions). Neither is a charlatan, they are both well educated and they both know when they can help and when they have to send someone to a doc.

I am not trying to say there are no charlatans in Poland, but apparently connotations are quite different.

I learned few days ago that in Switzerland chiropractors are part of the state health system and to become a chiropractor you have to study at the Medical Dept. of the University of Zurich.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I always wonder what chiropractors did to you all that you are dismissing them so easily.

Chiropractic theory is an alternative, non-evidence based medicine based on the belief that the health of the body can be affected by manipulation of the spine. Essentially it's just another vitalist philosophy.

The problem with chiropractors IMO compared to other alternative medicine is that they resemble actual medical practices (e.g. massage therapy, physiotherapy) and as a movement have done quite well to integrate themselves into healthcare system as "complementary" therapies. Personally I think there would be great benefit in cutting chiropractors (along with every other woo peddler) out of any healthcare setting and emphasising evidence based complementary therapies like massage. Otherwise we're left with this mess of having un-evidenced medicines relying on just plain wrong science working side by side with evidenced based medicine.

 

[NemoReally]

I've been having a nagging uncomfortable feeling on my neck, ...

At any rate, I think I might have to visit a chiropractor. I've been putting it off for a bit,

A reasonably competent chiropractor or osteopath should be able to to distinguish between the things they can and can't do. My wife is an osteopath and has been the first point of diagnosis for several people with serious diseases (eg, cancer or MS), even when they've already been to their GP.

I feel uncomfortable visiting a chiropractor as I've heard bad things about them. One person even died.
Is my worry justified or can I go with an easy mind?

To set your mind at ease, just compare the number of people who've died as a result of osteopathic treatment with the number who croak under doctor's ministrations. As another interesting exercise, investigate how much of general medicine is evidence-based.

As in any profession, there are good people and not so good people. If you do go to an 'alternative' medicine practitioner, try and get a recommendation.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

A reasonably competent chiropractor or osteopath should be able to to distinguish between the things they can and can't do. My wife is an osteopath and has been the first point of diagnosis for several people with serious diseases (eg, cancer or MS), even when they've already been to their GP.

To set your mind at ease, just compare the number of people who've died as a result of osteopathic treatment with the number who croak under doctor's ministrations.

I'd rather died as a result of a misuse of real medicine than die because I didn't seek proper medical attention (or worse died as a result of not seeking proper medical attention).

As another interesting exercise, investigate how much of general medicine is evidence-based.

The extent of this varies the world over but yes it is frightening that so much pseudo-science has integrated itself into healthcare.

As in any profession, there are good people and not so good people. If you do go to an 'alternative' medicine practitioner, try and get a recommendation.

No, consult your doctor. I could click my fingers and get dozens of recommendations for anything from homeopathy to reiki and it wouldn't mean a thing compared to the wealth of data that shows these things are not useful medicines.

 

[Borek]

Chiropractic theory is an alternative, non-evidence based medicine based on the belief that the health of the body can be affected by manipulation of the spine. Essentially it's just another vitalist philosophy.

As I explained, there is a cultural problem here. Chiropractor translates to Polish "kręgarz" - but apparently it doesn't mean the same. At least in my experience. Kręgarz in Poland is specifically someone treating back pains with the spine manipulation and massage, no some voodoo.

It happens that it helps not only back - when Marzena problems started she felt a pain in the right upper part of the body (or was it left?). Head, cheek, teeth, arm. Initially she was treated for trigeminal neuralgia by one doc, later our dentist (I know it sounds funny, but that's how it was) suggested neck x-ray. Bingo - one of the cervical vertebrae was misplaced and some nerves were squeezed. She went to another doc, who told her to put an insert into one shoe and sent her for some physical therapy and exercises. That helped partially, but she still wasn't perfectly OK. Finally she went to a chiropractor. He told her to keep the insert, explained how to keep her arms while sitting and did some massage magic to her spine (several times), which finally helped. Not that she is OK for ever. She keeps exercising, but sometimes she needs to see him again. Last time when we went to theater and we had places on the side - she had to sit and look to the left for two hours. The same patter - teeth, arm, cheek and so on started, again some massage helped.

Yes, this is an anecdotal evidence, yes, it doesn't say it is always this way, yes, it doesn't mean it is the same way in every corner of the world. But don't be surprised I am surprised.

 

[Evo]

To set your mind at ease, just compare the number of people who've died as a result of osteopathic treatment with the number who croak under doctor's ministrations.

I would guess that

1) More people go to medical doctors.

2) More people go to medical doctors with fatal diseases than a crick in the neck.

And good information.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html

If you're not familiar with Quackwatch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

 

[Evo]

There are so many journal articles citing either lack of effectiveness and/or injury due to chiropratic, there are too many to list, and most require subscriptions.

I'll give an example.

Abstract

Chiropractic spinal manipulation (CSM) is often used as a treatment for neck pain. However, its effectiveness is unclear. The aim of this article was to evaluate systematically and critically the effectiveness of CSM for neck pain. Six electronic databases were searched for all relevant randomized clinical trials. Strict inclusion/exclusion criteria had been predefined. Key data were validated and extracted. Methodologic quality was assessed by using the Jadad score. Statistical pooling was anticipated but was deemed not feasible. Four studies met the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Two studies were on single interventions, and 2 included series of CSM treatments, both with a 12-month follow-up. The 2 short-term trials used spinal mobilization as a control intervention. The 2 long-term studies compared CSM with exercise therapy. None of the 4 trials convincingly demonstrated the superiority of CSM over control interventions. In conclusion, the notion that CSM is more effective than conventional exercise treatment in the treatment of neck pain was not supported by rigorous trial data.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14622659.1#

 

[Evo]

There are too many to list and I DO have access to most of them so if you would like to know the actual content and whether or not the participants were affiliated with drug companies, if the adjustments were performed by actual licensed chiropractors, or if the studies are large enough to justify a conclusion versus more current peer-reviewed journal articles, feel free to ask. Perhaps if you were a medical professional you,too, might have access to a journal from which you quote an abstract. Since you are not and you don't have access, I have included an article from the New York Times below which anyone can read understand.

That was from a blog. And it violated copyright laws.

Your post is from an older resource. No mention of injury in the study you cite,

It was to show there was no benefit from chiropractic.

Annals of Internal Medicine and a study published this year on chiropractic efficacy

It says home treatment is as good as chiropractic.

Results: For pain, SMT had a statistically significant advantage over medication after 8, 12, 26, and 52 weeks (P ≤ 0.010), and HEA was superior to medication at 26 weeks (P = 0.02). No important differences in pain were found between SMT and HEA (Home Exercise) at any time point.

There is approximately a 1 in 1 million chance of having a stroke after a chiropractic treatment,

That is misinformation, I'll post the actual stats later, I'm busy right now.

We're talking about the effectiveness and/or harm from chiropratic. It's misleading to try to compare the small chiropractic industry with the entire medical/pharmaceutical industries.

 

[hecutler]

What was from a blog? What I wrote a few minutes ago? ? What are you talking about?

 

[micromass]

And oh yes, you are quoting the famous Ezard Ernst who has gained much notoriety in his vehement opposition of chiropractic w/ Singh, et.al. Find a series of articles from a group of physicians who are not hell-bent on one thing or another.

I notice that you did not debunk Ernst in any way. You just resorted to an ad hominem attack.

I can help you find information on PubMed, even if it is against my own opinion.

Don't worry, we can access PubMed articles. But not all the readers of the forums can.

I cannot add the NYT link here because I have not posted more than 5 times. You should know that. As soon as I can, I will be happy to post the link.

Please don't. The link is from a blog. It's not reputable evidence.

 

[Evo]

What was from a blog? What I wrote a few minutes ago? ? What are you talking about?

The reference to the NY Times was a blog. This thread is about alternative medicine (chiropractic) and mainstream medicine. Not chiropratic vs ibuprofen.

 

[micromass]

Scott Haldeman, MD, DC reviewed malpractice claims records for a 10-year period between 1988 and 1997. In reviewing the outcomes following the application of 134.5 million cervical manipulations (commonly referred to as the chiropractic adjustment), the records indicated that there were 23 reported cases of stroke or vertebral artery dissection (VAD). [10] Of this group, 10 of the patients had the complicating factors of high blood pressure, use of oral contraceptives, or a history of smoking, all of which are associated with vascular disease. The actual incidence of stroke or VAD following cervical manipulation was found to be one per 5.85 million cervical adjustments. That means that the average chiropractor could work for 1430 years (or practice 48 full chiropractic careers!) before they might be involved with this type of litigation.

Where are you getting YOUR numbers?

Yes, the risk is slight, but there is a risk nonetheless. Even a slight risk is too much for an outcome such as stroke. Certainly if there are no other benifits.
Also, malpractice claims are not very good data to base research on, is it?

 

[bobze]

Yes, the risk is slight, but there is a risk nonetheless. Even a slight risk is too much for an outcome such as stroke. Certainly if there are no other benifits.
Also, malpractice claims are not very good data to base research on, is it?

Especially considering its unfortunate that woo peddlers get to police themselves. You basically need a fellow peddler of woo to take the witness stand against the SOC delivered by the woosters. Good luck with that.

 

[DaveC426913]

Setting aside the contention of whether chiropractors are effective. In fact, granting that they are:

The OP should still go to a GP, rather than a chiropractor. The OP should get a full physical done to check for any medical issues, make sure they are in good health, rule out other causes and contraindications and then - if indicated by the GP - see a chiropractor.

And, for anyone who disagrees, "go see your GP, they will get you the help you need" is the official policy - the only policy - of PF.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Yes, the risk is slight, but there is a risk nonetheless. Even a slight risk is too much for an outcome such as stroke. Certainly if there are no other benifits.
Also, malpractice claims are not very good data to base research on, is it?

I agree. Just the other week my friend had neck pain after visiting a chiropractor. Another chiropractor fixed the problem but I don't want to put my body in a gamble really. It is just not something I'm completely comfortable with.

To everyone else, I will go to a general doctor.

 

[Darken-Sol]

i showed this thread to my girlfriend and it devolved into generally the same argument. it seems chiropractor people are convinced its the only way. i tried explaining preventative steps like stretching, exercise, and correcting posture will eventually keep her from actually going. her argument was it is too late for that. its not. imo its just an easy fix for something people can do for themselves. i have yet to visit a chiropractor, so i may be biased.

 

[Mr.Samsa]

And oh yes, you are quoting the famous Ezard Ernst who has gained much notoriety in his vehement opposition of chiropractic w/ Singh, et.al. Find a series of articles from a group of physicians who are not hell-bent on one thing or another.

I notice that you did not debunk Ernst in any way. You just resorted to an ad hominem attack.

I'm a bit late to this thread, but hecutler's comment is even more problematic given that Ernst's specialty is in complementary and alternative medicine. His initial training was as a homeopath, and he was the world's first professor of complementary medicine, and the first occupant of the Laing chair in Complementary Medicine until he retired last year.

Ernst is proudly and unashamedly a supporter of alternative medicine but (importantly) he is also a supporter of the scientific method. So he conducts studies and trials to determine whether the stuff he is supporting has any validity or not, and often finds that it does not - like homeopathy.

To say that Ernst is "hell bent on one thing or another", implying that he is biased against alternative medicine or is conducting faulty studies, is simply absurd. If anything, he is biased towards finding positive evidence, and often claims that about 5% of alternative medicine has some validity and evidence supporting it, and I imagine that figure is probably higher than the real percentage of valid treatments in alt med.

 

[fawley]

I am also not sure if chiropractic work will do it, as you said, regular physical exercise as a preventive and curative method is more, or at least equally, promising. As you describe your problems, it seems as if your muscles are under a one-sided pressure coming from your posture. Maybe it is also advisable to communicate that to your boss. Certain chairs might reduce the symptoms. Given that you have symptoms already a physiotherapy might be a point to start from. It requires a lot of discipline, but it is also a sustainable method to get/remain healthy. Whatever you do, see a doctor first.
regards

 

[Nano-Passion]

Just to update this thread: At one point I woke up and was in a lot of discomfort, I had to lay in bed for a while. I just went to the pharmacy store and got a neck rest. What strained my neck was the long commutes in the car for some reason. So I used the neck rest for a couple days and now I use it if I have a long commute somewhere. But everything is fine. :D

Cheers.

 

[turbo]

I gravitate toward Osteopathic doctors (they have chiropractic training). Unfortunately, I have to re-educate them (twice, so far). Once they get a look at my spine, they want to "fix" it. Due to an accident back around 1975, I have a ruptured disk and a couple of vertebrae that are misaligned and fused in that position. I am pain-free in that regard and don't want any manipulation.

After I had a stroke, my neurologist ordered an MRI, and when she discussed the results with me she asked "Why didn't you get this fixed?!' She is from Germany, and I had to explain that my wife and I had no money and no insurance in the early 70s and that there was no way to get that surgery performed. She has been here long enough that she is clear on this now. She is working for the VA, helping vets deal with traumatic brain injuries.

 

[nitsuj]

My dad has bad back pain as a result of an "extra disc"? or something like that.

To the point of trying dodads & gadgets. One of the coolest and was effective for my slightly herniated lower disc was an "inverter" where one lies on a bed and can fully invert (or whatever in between), strapped in by the ankles.

Anyways, his opinion of chiropractic work is yes it's "quackery" but after some "shopping around" recommendations ect, ended up with a great chiropractor. An old guy who retired not long after my dad started seeing him.

So with that said, why be so rude as to paint all chiropractors as on the verge of "malpractice" or whatever. very obviously it is dependent on the individual and how they "practice" the "trade".

Borek called ya'll right away. It's a bias.

Oh and my dad is also of the opinion most advanced medicine is "quackery", how true.

Perhaps it's too strong/insulting a term. But regardless, healthcare is not an exact science, in particular that dealing with pain.

DaveC426913's is the only post that should be left after a moderator cleanup.

 

[nitsuj]

Yes, the risk is slight, but there is a risk nonetheless. Even a slight risk is too much for an outcome such as stroke. Certainly if there are no other benifits.
Also, malpractice claims are not very good data to base research on, is it?

Micro I don't buy your argument of "the risk is slight, but there is a risk nonetheless." The data was 1 in 5 million, you understand that's nill.


I understand that was data to counter argue the "risk". Which you dismissed and then said it's data to base research on??

 

[micromass]

My dad has bad back pain as a result of an "extra disc"? or something like that.

To the point of trying dodads & gadgets. One of the coolest and was effective for my slightly herniated lower disc was an "inverter" where one lies on a bed and can fully invert (or whatever in between), strapped in by the ankles.

Anyways, his opinion of chiropractic work is yes it's "quackery" but after some "shopping around" recommendations ect, ended up with a great chiropractor. An old guy who retired not long after my dad started seeing him.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

So with that said, why be so rude as to paint all chiropractors as on the verge of "malpractice" or whatever. very obviously it is dependent on the individual and how they "practice" the "trade".

We're not being rude, we just have valid criticism. If it's very obvious, then give a scientific reference.

Oh and my dad is also of the opinion most advanced medicine is "quackery", how true.

Right. This says enough in my opinion. Most doctors are quacks, right??

DaveC426913's is the only post that should be left after a moderator cleanup.

For the record: there has not been a moderator cleanup in this thread.

Micro I don't buy your argument of "the risk is slight, but there is a risk nonetheless." The data was 1 in 5 million, you understand that's nill.

Tell that to the people who are now disabled due to a stroke.

 

[mazinse]

wait wait someone needs to explain how does the manipulation of the back spine cause a stroke which is in the head.