Is Suicide a Sign of Cowardice or Self-Worth?

[aleemudasir]

Is killing yourself cowardice? Or, acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?

 

[Evo]

Is killing yourself cowardice? Or, acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?

When you kill yourself, there is "nothing". It is the "end". If a person's mystical beliefs drives to them commit suicide because they believe in a better "afterlife" then I see that as a serious problem.

 

[Akaisora]

Is killing yourself cowardice? Or, acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?

Or you have nothing to offer, nor you have any higher goals towards science and human evolution.

 

[MathJakob]

Is killing yourself cowardice? Or, acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?

I think people who kill themselves genuinely believe that not existing is preferable to existing. If you're that miserable that you'd rather die than live then that is their prerogative. I think terminally ill people or people with serious illnesses / disabilities should be allowed to chose whether to end their life or not.

 

[member 392791]

When you kill yourself, there is "nothing". It is the "end". If a person's mystical beliefs drives to them commit suicide because they believe in a better "afterlife" then I see that as a serious problem.

How do you know? I do agree though with the third sentence. I think a lot of victims of suicide could have been saved had they gotten proper treatment for their depression.

 

[lambda90]

I'll defer to Schopenhauer.

"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice... that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person."

 

[Enigman]

How do you know?

http://physicsandphysicists.blogspot.in/2008/04/analysing-afterlife.html

 

[FreeMitya]

It isn't necessarily cowardly. If a person has been diagnosed with ALS and would rather get it over with than physically deteriorate, then he/she has my sympathy. What makes the issue complex, though, is that it's easy to say the above when the victim isn't somebody who is close to you.

When it comes to something like major depression, it's easy for others to condemn the suicide because a relatively small number of people have actually experienced major depression--which is, by the way, a very serious physical illness. How can we blame somebody for ending his/her life when he/she has lost virtually all hope and feelings of self-worth?

Doctors do not know the exact causes of depression. It is believed that chemical changes in the brain are responsible. This may be due to a problem with your genes. Or it may be triggered by certain stressful events. More likely, it is a combination of both.

...

Depression can change or distort the way you see yourself, your life, and those around you.

With depression, you often see everything in a negative way. It is hard for you to imagine that a problem or situation can be solved in a positive way.

...

Symptoms of depression can include:

Agitation, restlessness, and irritability, anger
Becoming withdrawn or isolated
Fatigue and lack of energy
Feeling hopeless and helpless, worthless, guilty, self-hate
Loss of interest or pleasure in activities that were once enjoyed
Sudden change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss
Thoughts of death or suicide
Trouble concentrating
Trouble sleeping or sleeping too much

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000945.htm

 

[lisab]

The times my life has been affected by suicide, I was always left with the same sad conclusion: what a stupid, selfish, and -- most of all -- MEAN thing to do.

The people left behind are devastated, with guilt and pain that is not fixable. And it seems that is what the person intended. It's contemptible.

But this is just based on my experiences, which are all drug-abuse related. I don't feel this way about people with terminal illness who choose to die on their own terms.

 

[Evo]

Please note, if your post was deleted, this is a mainstream science forum, religion, mysticism, and woowoo are not allowed here, so please do not post it.

Thanks.

 

[Enigman]

I'm from Wonderland and even I didn't get that particular dialect of jabberwock...

 

[Crake]

Is killing yourself cowardice? Or, acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?

I'm all for suicide. There are reasons for which suicide is perfectly sound.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?". I think everyone who kill themselves think they deserve better. However, one should know that there's nothing other than "this life". When one suicides, one should think of "better" as the "lack of worse" and not some after-life ********.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I've had personal experience with people who have suffered from suicidal depression. In that circumstance they literally can't see an alternative and have a strong impulse to end it all. People often think of the depressed as weak but they aren't, they've suffered and continue to suffer in ways people can't imagine to the extent that their brain no longer allows them to think or feel properly. In that case I understand completely why a person commits suicide but it saddens me and I'd much rather they receive help.

However when you're in a condition for which there is no help available, perhaps because there is no medical treatment, you should be allowed to commit suicide if you go through a process with enough checks and balances.

 

[jackmell]

They're giving up aren't they? There's a whole spectrum of fight-ness in people, Nature and nurture conspiring to present their wares for consideration by Selection. In the raw, cold, uncaring world of life on earth, fighters win and it is for the benefit of us all that they do. We are strong, superbly so, because of this design and while I too am touched by the tragedy of suicide, especially the young, I recognize it is probably best for us all that Nature remains less so.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

They're giving up aren't they? There's a whole spectrum of fight-ness in people, Nature and nurture conspiring to present their wares for consideration by Selection. In the raw, cold, uncaring world of life on earth, fighters win and it is for the benefit of us all that they do. We are strong, superbly so, because of this design and while I too am touched by the tragedy of suicide, especially the young, I recognize it is probably best for us all that Nature remains less so.

That is absolutely ridiculous. First for employing the naturalistic fallacy and secondly if you're going to invoke natural selection in an argument you better make sure that what you're arguing about is under control of natural selection. Suicide is a behaviour with a vast array of causes, how many of them are strongly influenced by hereditary biological factors? Of those (if there are any) how many actually lower fertility as opposed to having an effect later in life?

Lastly it's incorrect to regard organisms that have a higher evolutionary fitness as fighters. There are many traits resulting in greater fitness that have nothing to do with perseverance, and quite a few that encourage literally not fighting.

 

[jackmell]

That is absolutely ridiculous.

I respectfully disagree and believe what I said makes perfect sense: we are all affected by environmental (social) pressures we find ourselves in and these pressures act as selective forces affecting gene frequencies. Suicidal tendencies in the young, reproductive population are not conducive to survival and reproductive success : suicide in this group, although upsetting, is, in the hard cold world of life, a de-selection of the unfit in my opinion.

Edit: For the record, when I said "fight" I did not necessarily mean physical fighting but rather fight to survive and make in in the world.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I respectfully disagree and believe what I said makes perfect sense: we are all affected by environmental (social) pressures we find ourselves in and these pressures act as selective forces affecting gene frequencies. Suicidal tendencies in the young, reproductive population are not conducive to survival and reproductive success : suicide in this group, although upsetting, is, in the hard cold world of life, a de-selection of the unfit in my opinion.

It makes no sense at all. If propensity to suicide before reproduction is not strongly biologically determined (and I don't see any evidence that it is and plenty of reasons to think that it isn't) then it is not an evolutionary trait.

 

[Choppy]

When someone decides to commit suicide, it is quite often because that person is in so much pain (physically, socially, emotionally, psychologically) that suicide is seen as the only way to bring that pain to an end. I would hesitate to apply a blanket label to such situations as "cowardly" because that person is stuck in a metaphorical corner. I don't think anyone lightly choses to end their own life.

I am generally in favour of euthanasia - particularly in situations where a person is facing an inevitable, slow and painful natural end to their life. There is a dignity in controlling your own end and I don't think we, as a society, should judge anyone too critically for that. I do however have major concerns about elder exploitation, or creating situations where people feel the need to commit suicide so as not to be a burden on those they love. This is not an easy problem where a blanket solution applies, however, I strongly feel that it is one that there needs to be a lot of serious dialogue about.

 

[turbo]

If one's life is painful and unbearable (in some respects), why not do one's best to improve the situation? Some of us live with chronic, debilitating conditions and manage to cope as well as possible. During a few down moments, I have flirted with the thought of suicide, but when I think of my wife, and our dogs, it passes.

I should confess that if I developed a cancer that was not only debilitating, but painful, I might want to take a walk in the woods and never come back. Not just for my own release, but to take pressure off loved ones. My opinion only.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Why can't we just let people do to themselves whatever it is they want to do to themselves? Why do we always have to judge everyone about their choices regarding their own lives?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Why can't we just let people do to themselves whatever it is they want to do to themselves? Why do we always have to judge everyone about their choices regarding their own lives?

Because people often aren't in the right state of mind to make certain decisions and, if all goes well, will thank you later for helping them in their time of need.

 

[lisab]

Why can't we just let people do to themselves whatever it is they want to do to themselves? Why do we always have to judge everyone about their choices regarding their own lives?

Let me give you a snapshot of something that happened in my life involving a relative who had a bad drug problem. She was romantically involved with a guy, and she befriended his teenage child. One day she had a creepy conversation with the kid about suicide, like "If you were to kill yourself, how would you do it?"

So she told the kid to come over again the next afternoon. The next day, the kid came into the house to find she had killed herself.

I know, it sounds like a bad movie script. But this actually happened.

Suicide dramatically affects the people left behind in a way that is beyond cruel.

You better believe I judge her for her choices, in fact I judge the hell out of her, I think she is (was) pure evil.

Again, I see it differently if a person has a terminal illness.

 

[Choppy]

Why can't we just let people do to themselves whatever it is they want to do to themselves? Why do we always have to judge everyone about their choices regarding their own lives?

This is an important question.

There's a balance between freedoms and responsibilities. And while there is often debate about exactly where that balance is, it has to be somewhere. As has been pointed out, the choices that people make affect those around them and so I would argue that the extent to which a choice that any arbitrary person makes affects me, I should have a say in that choice.

 

[leroyjenkens]

I had a friend kill himself. He wasn't a close friend, but he was a friend of a friend and we got along really well, but would never hang out together just the two of us.
I don't know why, but him killing himself affected me really strongly. I didn't cry, it was just extremely shocking, and it didn't leave me feeling sad or anything like that, but just a shocked feeling for a really long time. Hard to explain. So it must be even a lot harder than that for people who are really close to the person.
Or maybe that's just me being soft.

 

[lisab]

I had a friend kill himself. He wasn't a close friend, but he was a friend of a friend and we got along really well, but would never hang out together just the two of us.
I don't know why, but him killing himself affected me really strongly. I didn't cry, it was just extremely shocking, and it didn't leave me feeling sad or anything like that, but just a shocked feeling for a really long time. Hard to explain. So it must be even a lot harder than that for people who are really close to the person.
Or maybe that's just me being soft.

No, I think it's you being human.

I think it's hard for people who have not been through it to understand what it's like.

 

[davenn]

No, I think it's you being human.

I think it's hard for people who have not been through it to understand what it's like.

indeed

and in respose to your earlier post ...

... Suicide dramatically affects the people left behind in a way that is beyond cruel.
You better believe I judge her for her choices, in fact I judge the hell out of her, I think she is (was) pure evil.

maybe she was "pure evil" ... I don't know. But I doubt that's the state of the majority who commit suicide.
Your overall comments throughout the thread lead me me to believe you have never suffered severe depression ? !

its horrific, totally debilitating, you cannot see any resolution to all the problems and nothing anyone ( councellor or otherwise) says helps. All you can think of is escaping the miserable wretched life you live. You do think about your family and friends, you think about how your situation has affected them and you finally realize they would be, in the end, better off without you.


Dave

 

[lisab]

indeed

and in respose to your earlier post ...



maybe she was "pure evil" ... I don't know. But i doubt that's the state of the majority why commit suicide.
Your overall comments throughout the thread lead me me to believe you have never suffered severe depression ? !

its horrific, totally debilitating, you cannot see any resolution to all the problems and nothing anyone ( councellor or otherwise) says helps. All you can think of is escaping the miserable wretched life you live. You do think about your family and friends, you think about how your situation has affected them and you finally realize they would be, in the end, better off without you.


Dave

Yes, the people in my life who chose suicide were all drug addicts. I'm quite certain that has biased my views on suicide, but I'm sure it's not rare. It's how a lot of addicts die.

I have been depressed, but it was not severe. I was still functional. It lasted about a year, and it was miserable. I was never suicidal, though.

I know it's a common thought among severely depressed, "They will be better off without me." But let me assure you: No one feels better because a friend or family member has committed suicide. Ever.

 

[WannabeNewton]

As has been pointed out, the choices that people make affect those around them and so I would argue that the extent to which a choice that any arbitrary person makes affects me, I should have a say in that choice.

I agree with everything you said and I'm not arguing against preventing a person from taking his/her life if it is known to someone that such an event is about to transpire. I'm also not arguing for it as I can neither put myself in the shoes of someone who is in a truly suicidal state of mind nor can I put myself in the shoes of someone put in the situation of preventing a suicide.

I'm talking about judging people who attempt to commit suicide as being "selfish" or "a coward" or what have you. I think it's disgusting to label suicidal people in such a manner. Furthermore I think the very question of "what are your views on suicide?" deserves better than an answer from an individual who hasn't been through a period of *genuine* suicidal tendencies him/herself. It is silly, not to mention insulting, to sit behind a computer screen and argue about one's views on suicide in some nonchalant manner when one hasn't even been in the shoes of a suicidal individual.

 

[Aero51]

Why am I the only one who is concerned why the OP is asking this kind of question in the first place? If you feel suicidal you need to talk to somebody. PM me.

 

[Akaisora]

I agree with everything you said and I'm not arguing against preventing a person from taking his/her life if it is known to someone that such an event is about to transpire. I'm also not arguing for it as I can neither put myself in the shoes of someone who is in a truly suicidal state of mind nor can I put myself in the shoes of someone put in the situation of preventing a suicide.

I'm talking about judging people who attempt to commit suicide as being "selfish" or "a coward" or what have you. I think it's disgusting to label suicidal people in such a manner. Furthermore I think the very question of "what are your views on suicide?" deserves better than an answer from an individual who hasn't been through a period of *genuine* suicidal tendencies him/herself. It is silly, not to mention insulting, to sit behind a computer screen and argue about one's views on suicide in some nonchalant manner when one hasn't even been in the shoes of a suicidal individual.

I understand that people with mental illness or depression are a special case, but I was talking in the context of what the topic creator said:

Is killing yourself cowardice? Or, acknowledgment of fact that you deserve better than this life?

 

[aleemudasir]

I would like to clear two points here:
1. When I say "kill yourself", I don't mean out of depression or you're fed up of life or anything like that; but I mean you are going to kill yourself just like you do other things. Suicide; like playing football, bungee jumping, any other thing you like to do. You just want to kill yourself because you just want to, just like that.
2. When I said "you deserve better than this life" I didn't intend to talk of anything like afterlife or any other similar concept. Just that maybe you don't like "life"(like someone doesn't like to play a particular game, or do any particular thing) so he wants to kill himself.

 

[aleemudasir]

Please note, if your post was deleted, this is a mainstream science forum, religion, mysticism, and woowoo are not allowed here, so please do not post it.

Thanks.

I would like to say that my post has got nothing to do with religion, mysticism or anything of what you call "woowoo". It's just a general question posted under General Discussion category.

 

[Enigman]

I would like to say that my post has got nothing to do with religion, mysticism or anything of what you call "woowoo". It's just a general question posted under General Discussion category.

Don't think she was talking to you...another poster had posted a comment which was deleted.

 

[Evo]

I would like to say that my post has got nothing to do with religion, mysticism or anything of what you call "woowoo". It's just a general question posted under General Discussion category.

Yes, your post was not deleted, so my message was not to you.

 

[Evo]

another poster had posted a comment which was deleted.

They were also a sockpuppet of a banned crackpot.