Reservation in educational institutions

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In summary, the article I read says that, 49.5 per cent of the total seats in IITs, IIMs and Central universities, including Delhi University, are to be reserved for OBCs, SCs and STs. At present, 22.5 per cent seats are reserved for SCs (15%) and STs (7.5%) in these institutes. I think that these reservations are detrimental and should be done away with.
  • #1
siddharth
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I read http://www.financialexpress.com/latest_full_story.php?content_id=122853&pn=0" article which annoyed me greatly. It says that, 49.5 per cent of the total seats in IITs, IIMs and Central universities, including Delhi University, are to be reserved for OBCs, SCs and STs. At present, 22.5 per cent seats are reserved for SCs (15%) and STs (7.5%) in these institutes.

First of all, for those who have not heard of the caste system which exists in India, here's some links which provide a general background on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_caste_system"
http://codesign.scu.edu/hinduism/"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Indian_history"

The Government has reserved seats for SC/STs in all areas of education. Special scholarships and other incentives are provided for SC/ST candidates. Many State Governments have completely waived fees for SC/ST students

By reservation of seats, I mean that, universities must enroll a minimum number of students from the so-called "backward" classes, and this selection is based on different academic and monetary criteria when compared to the students of the other classes. This is supposed to be a type of Affirmative action.

For example, in my state Tamil Nadu, 69 per cent of seats in state funded universities are allotted to Scheduled Castes, the Scheduled Tribes and Backward castes, in addition to separate quotas for Most Backward Castes, the physically challenged, sportspersons and wards of freedom fighters, among others (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2005/08/22/stories/2005082210100400.htm" ).

As a result, the academic criteria for admission are vastly reduced for these castes. For example, in my state, while a student of the "forward" caste (FC) requires a score of 290/300 in the entrance exam of a leading university, a student of the "backward" caste would require a score of about 270/300. This may not seem much, but these are intensely competitive exams with around a hundred and fifty thousand students, and this is a big difference in that context

What I think is,

(i) These reservations are not done on the basis of the economic background of the student, but on the basis of caste, which is hereditary.

(ii) By giving admission to an undeserving candidate, there is injustice being done. Besides, I doubt that such students, who enter on the basis of caste and not academic merit, could cope with what's being taught once they enter. As a result, the quality of education declines.

It's my view that such reservations are detrimental and should be done away with. In fact, I think that the whole caste system should be abolished. It's ridiculous discriminating people on the basis of caste. The whole idea of backward and forward castes smells of racial discrimination.

I would like to hear your opinions on this.
 
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  • #2
It sounds like racial discrimination to me.

I vehemently disagree and reject the caste system, as I reject any system based on race, ethnic origin, religion, etc.

Opportunity should go to anyone who works honestly for it!
 
  • #3
And if it doesn't, Astronuc?
 
  • #4
It sounds like racial discrimination to me too.
It sounds like Affirmative Action to me...
 
  • #5
russ_watters said:
It sounds like racial discrimination to me too.
It sounds like Affirmative Action to me...
It's more blatant (I'm sure there's a better word) than affirmative action. AA supporters (including half the SC) will insist that AA does not imply a "quota system".

This clearly does.
 
  • #6
I was just going to ask how this is any different than our affirmative action policies (because I am near University of Michigan, I have heard quite a bit about that in past few years)?
 
  • #7
arildno said:
And if it doesn't, Astronuc?
Then one has to make it so!

If something doesn't work the way one thinks it should, then the something must be changed so it does work.

Discrimination is a form of injustice, and injustice is unacceptable, and for me intolerable.

The only acceptable form of affirmative action is to make sure no individual or group has an unfair advantage. Opportunity should go to qualified people who make an honest effort.
 
  • #8
Some awful news (IMO)

The Indian government has decided to implement a controversial affirmative action plan despite ongoing protests.

Under the plan, half of state-funded professional college places would go to lower caste students.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5011078.stm"


:grumpy: :mad:

As if that was not enough, the newly elected state government has announced that it plans to implement the above action plan in privately owned colleges and introduce a new plan which will separately "reserve" seats for religious minorities.

:grumpy: :mad:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060525/asp/nation/story_6267476.asp"
 
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  • #9
Astronuc said:
Then one has to make it so!

How? :frown:
 
  • #10
Simple question, complex answer.

How to get a people in a population of ~ 1,095,351,995 to completely change the way they view the caste system? Many perhaps are ready to eliminate it, but others wish to maintain status quo.

Perhaps consider the example of Mohandas (Mahatma) Gandhi.

Or simply start asking "How to make Indian society 'fair and just' for all?".

Start with oneself, then one's friends, then one's associates, community, . . . .

One percent inspiration (the easy part), ninety-nine perspiration (and frustration - the hard part).
 
  • #11
India has its own far more egregious version of America's Affirmative Action system. :frown:

If I had been born in India, I would've been negatively discriminated against (I am of Brahmin parentage, although I don't consider myself a Brahmin since that would presuppose a Hindu faith, which I gave up long ago).

I was instead born in Singapore, where caste doesn't matter, but race does. I am an Indian, a member of a minority comprising 7 to 8 % of the population. For competitive courses like Medicine (which is by far the toughest course to enter at the local U), a quota system has been in place for some time, where the intake has to include a certain percentage of minorities (like Indians and Malays) to match population demographics. This often means a more deserving Chinese (majority) candidate gets displaced by a less deserving (minority) candidate.

Now, I am firmly against quota systems of this sort, but I cannot change the system in this country. So I did the only thing I could - I nuked the entry criteria by scoring so well that I would effortlessly and legitimately have earned a place in the faculty had my ethnicity been disregarded. At least one place in that stupid quota went to a candidate who deserved the place (and there were other Indians in my batch who would've made it on merit alone).

I agree with Astronuc, all forms of "positive" and "negative" racial bias and discrimination should be eliminated from all aspects of society.
 
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  • #12
siddharth said:
Some awful news (IMO)
Yikes ! Have the IITs and IIMs survived ?
 
  • #13
Gokul43201 said:
Yikes ! Have the IITs and IIMs survived ?
Nope...:grumpy:
He [The PM] also assured that the government will set up committees of Vice-Chancellors of Central universities and Directors of IIMs and IITs on how to increase the facility in all these institutions in such a manner that the interest of all groups of students is protected.

http://www.ndtv.com/template/templa...tled:+PM&id=19468&callid=0&category=National"

Increase the facilities, increase the number of seats and make a joke out of premier institutions.
 
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  • #14
Most of you are probably too young to remember that there was a quota assigned to Affirmative Action in the US at least in the beginning. Companies had to reach a certain percentage of minority employees or else face penalties. I remember at one point my compnay was below quota so they could not hire any white people, the problem was that no minorities could pass the qualification test for employment, so the company decided to waive the test in order to hire enough minorities to avoid being fined. Then the new employess couldn't pass training . It was absolutely ridiculous.
 
  • #15
It is certainly a farce that a system once used as an equaliser for the caste disparity in our country , is now doing the exact opposite .

Most of the quota and reservations have been in existence ever since the Indian independence .Of course, at the time it was a good idea, as a majority of the backward classes were illiterate. But today the situation is different , very different .
Yet, there has been little revision or restructuring in the policies .
It annoys me a great deal to find economically well heeled students , taking advantage of this system, while more deserving students get left behind .
This is certainly blatant discrimination and injustice.

Arun
 
  • #16
arunbg said:
It is certainly a farce that a system once used as an equaliser for the caste disparity in our country , is now doing the exact opposite .

Most of the quota and reservations have been in existence ever since the Indian independence .Of course, at the time it was a good idea, as a majority of the backward classes were illiterate. But today the situation is different , very different .
Yet, there has been little revision or restructuring in the policies .
It annoys me a great deal to find economically well heeled students , taking advantage of this system, while more deserving students get left behind .
This is certainly blatant discrimination and injustice.

Arun

Agreed. I think the BJP was moving in a better direction on this than the perpetual "pseudo-champion" of the underdog, Congress.
 
  • #17
arunbg said:
Of course, at the time it was a good idea, as a majority of the backward classes were illiterate. But today the situation is different , very different.

I would say, even that's debatable. Instead of allocating a fixed number of seats in universities, more importance could have been given in improving the standards of primary and secondary education.

It annoys me a great deal to find economically well heeled students , taking advantage of this system, while more deserving students get left behind .

Yeah, I feel the same way as well. In fact, when I finished high school last year, there were many examples of that happening.

As Astronuc said, opportunity should go only to qualified people who make an honest effort.
 
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  • #18
Did you read Arjun Singh's interview?
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/decision-on-quota-is-final-the-chapter-is-closed/11063-4.html
No straight answer. No assertions. Only maybe, could etc. Look at his knowledge. And he calls himself the HRD (Human Resources Destruction (to be more precise) ) minister.
Obviously the government is doing this for votes. And I hope the strikes don't end till the govt. withdraws it. What about the people who will suffer because of this. Let MMS be treated by an OBC doctor for his heart. Who will be blamed for any mishappening? The doctor. But actually it was his fault.
 
  • #19
hellraiser said:
And I hope the strikes don't end till the govt. withdraws it.
There must be an alternative (a strong one) to this doctors-only-strike. One news channel showed a person suffering from blood cancer just lying down on the hospital floor and also a 17-year old boy affected by paralysis.They are from some far-off village who have spent all their money to go there(AIIMS), and all they've been doing is waiting, without treatment, for nearly a fortnight.
 
  • #20
hellraiser said:
No straight answer. No assertions. Only maybe, could etc. Look at his knowledge. And he calls himself the HRD (Human Resources Destruction (to be more precise) ) minister.

Great link, and you're absolutely right. But, then again, all politicians are like that.

And I hope the strikes don't end till the govt. withdraws it.

I think there should be an alternative to a doctors strike.
 
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  • #21
What can be the other alternative? We have lived in India for too long to know that there is no other way of getting your demands met than other than strikes.
I am concerned about the patients, but if the govt. is really concerned it should, in the first place take back it's new rule. In fact, the whole medical services were suspended just 2 days ago (they were suspended, but not fully), when the govt. gave a go ahead to the rule.
How can the govt. pass the new rule without even analysing the situation. The interview clearly shows that the minister does not even know the OBC population. Determining it should be the first step in passing such a move. But our government has always been 'vote oriented'.


PS: Sign the petition at http://www.vyomworld.com/petition/
 
  • #22
hellraiser said:
What can be the other alternative? We have lived in India for too long to know that there is no other way of getting your demands met than other than strikes.
Strike, yes. But doctors, well, they shouldn't be gone for a long duration. The government is obviously not sensitive to the situation - just asking the doctors to stop their protest at every political meeting will of course be fruitless.

The ministers' bodygaurds should go on strike. :devil:
 
  • #23
siddharth said:
I would say, even that's debatable. Instead of allocating a fixed number of seats in universities, more importance could have been given in improving the standards of primary and secondary education.
I couldn't agree more. This just makes me sick !
 
  • #24
I don't know which makes me more sick, this quota nonsense or the Astrology school the BJP wanted to set up when they were in power. :yuck:
 
  • #25
Sounds like another human society trying to deal with a mess they've made. I don't think there is any way to easily clean it up either.
 
  • #26
0TheSwerve0 said:
Sounds like another human society trying to deal with a mess they've made. I don't think there is any way to easily clean it up either.

A mess which they are still making. There's been no attempt at all to try to rectify it, IMO.
 
  • #27
0TheSwerve0 said:
Sounds like another human society trying to deal with a mess they've made. I don't think there is any way to easily clean it up either.
The politicians thrive on this mess.
 
  • #28
Just today, I got the results of one of my exams .
I was surprised tosee my rank considerably lower than expected.
Then as I checked the marks of other students, I was shocked to find that candidates of the so called "backward" communities were placed above me even though their marks were considerably lower ( I mean very low ) . Just to give you an idea, candidates who under normal circumstances would be placed about 20,000 places below me are now placed above me .
This is plain injustice and disgusting .
 
  • #29
arunbg said:
Just today, I got the results of one of my exams .
I was surprised tosee my rank considerably lower than expected.
Then as I checked the marks of other students, I was shocked to find that candidates of the so called "backward" communities were placed above me even though their marks were considerably lower ( I mean very low ) . Just to give you an idea, candidates who under normal circumstances would be placed about 20,000 places below me are now placed above me .
This is plain injustice and disgusting .
Hmmm...and I thought pulling down the ranks of students with a second language other than Tamil was bad (TN state board).
 
  • #30
This is disgusting. This is even worse than divide-and-rule. Next they will be talking about reservations for different religions. What will be left for the so called 'general people'. Seriously, where are we heading towards now? What about the status of IIT's. It may become even worse that state institutes. And the companies will start heading towards private universities.
What do we have to do to make the govt. hear us? A 23-year-old has already tried self-immolation in Delhi. Is the govt. not going to listen?
 
  • #31
hellraiser said:
Next they will be talking about reservations for different religions.
Well, actually this has already begun.
In the examination that I was talking about, the "backward classes" include all Muslims and a majority of Christians apart from "backward caste" Hindus . This is when Kerala has one of the largest relative populations of these religions in India .
I am all for secularism and religious pluralism but this is going a bit too far.

Arun
 
  • #32
hellraiser said:
What do we have to do to make the govt. hear us? A 23-year-old has already tried self-immolation in Delhi. Is the govt. not going to listen?

Self-immolation is a really stupid way. When you're dead, what does reservation matter to you :rolleyes:? To be fair, while I completely oppose any kind of reservation, I think that such protesters are only trying to sensationalise the issue.

I think a major point here is a lack of proper communication. I think that this issue is too emotional and there's a lack of proper, level-headed discussion.

Most of the protesters, in my opinion, are more interested in protecting their rights, than trying to reach a solution where the interests of the oppressed community is also taken into account.

Where are the debates on alternative means to help bridge the social injustice, such as improving the primary educational system? For example, there is a really vast difference between the quality of education that students get in private schools where the medium of instruction is English, and government schools where the medium of instruction is a local language. Where are the talks on how to rectify this gap?

The really sad part is that, this whole issue shows, in my opinion, a profound lack of rational thinking in the country, both among politicians and some protesters.
 
  • #33
Let's build some AI's to take the places of the humans in backward castes. Is the religious aspect of the caste system still in place (that these people are reincarnated into low castes because of karma), or is it more like racism (that they're simply born inferior)? If the latter, then AI's could take the bottom rung of the caste system, which I don't think is going away any time soon.
 
  • #34
0TheSwerve0 said:
Let's build some AI's to take the places of the humans in backward castes. Is the religious aspect of the caste system still in place (that these people are reincarnated into low castes because of karma), or is it more like racism (that they're simply born inferior)? If the latter, then AI's could take the bottom rung of the caste system, which I don't think is going away any time soon.

My understanding is that it's like racism. In the traditional caste system you're simply born into a lower caste. Most aspects of your life, such as who you can marry and what jobs you can do, are decided by your caste.

In modern India, the traditional caste system has almost broken down in the major cities, though it is still prevalent in the villages.

I saw a programme today on BBC , which highlighted the extent to which the caste system is still prevalent in India. It showed the plight of women, from the lowest castes, who had the job of cleaning the human waste and excretion in the village for 10$ a month. They had to do it as they were born into the lower castes, and because no one else from the higher castes would.

This is another article written in 2001 speaks more about the injustice to the lower castes
http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/georgesept62001.html"
From the article,
While the media debate rages, the Dalits in Trilokpuri shrug at the notion of change. "My mother did scavenging. I am a scavenger. I don't see my children doing anything else, whatever the politicians may say,'' said Birum. "This is our caste.''

During the U.N. World Conference on Racism in Durban, South Africa, most of the participants condemned the caste system as a form of apartheid. The Indian response was as follows

"Condemning the caste system would equate casteism with racism, which makes India a racist country, which we are not,'' Omar Abdullah, India's minister of state for foreign affairs, said in Durban.

:rolleyes:
 
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  • #35
I did some quick research for a class assignment last year and the statistics basically said that every month or so, the higher castes would come pillage, rape, and murder the lower castes. Like you said, this occurred in more rural areas. Plus, apparently the lower caste girls are made sex slaves in temples (is that the gist of it?). There are countless rape stories, including rape by police officers of women who just happen to be in their line of sight.
 

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