Water H2O convert to Hydrogen peroxide H2O2

[Jacquesl]

Does anyone know how to take Water H2O and convert it to Hydrogen peroxide H2O2, so basally I want to add another oxygen molecule to the existing oxygen molecule? I want to use the Hydrogen peroxide for a fuel, cheap fuel, don’t want to buy petroleum products anymore and I care about the world also a bit.

 

[Gokul43201]

This is a completely useless quest. To use hydrogen peroxide as a fuel (monopropellant), you are essentially decomposing it into water and oxygen. You will get back no more than the enrgy you put into make the peroxide out of water in the first place! And where are you going to get the energy to do that from?

If you want to reduce consumption of petroleum products, consider renewable sources like solar or wind energy.

 

[Jheriko]

This might get a better response in the Chemistry forum...

EDIT: no offense to the response above, it just wasn't there when I first posted.


Also... nuclear power ftw! Damned nuclear protesters need to realize that THEY are the reason we are still pumping the poisonous remains of burned gas, coal and oil into the atmosphere. Probably no good for a car though... at least whilst protesters are busily crippling research efforts.

 

[Jacquesl]

Gokul43201, Will this be like to make hydrogen using huge amounts of electricity in the Electrolysis process.
So basically converting the energy into usable another form.
So if you know the process, you’re welcome to tell me.
The energy I’m going to get out of the mains if I understand you correct.

I’ve seen something like a hydrogen peroxide car and rockets and stuff.

 

[grome22]

A few questions

Is there a way to calculate how much energy is required to convert a unit of water to hydrogen and oxygen.

How much energy can be recovered from using that recovered hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell.

and how feasible is it?

 

[AbedeuS]

Electrolysis of water is going to require more energy than the combustion of the products, in essence the electrolysis should have equal energy in theory, but most electrolysis processes are around 50-70% efficient, and combustion of the products will not utilise the released thermal energy 100%, therefore its best just to use the electricity directly in an electric motor, rather than splitting it to use it in a combustion engine.

 

[JGM_14]

if you are using the heat then that isn't a problem.
some fuel cells aren't very efficent.
The minimum voltage to split water is around 1.5 volts.
1 gallon of water produces about 1300 gallons of H2\O2 gas.

 

[shadowzkillerz]

Reply to Converting H2O into H2O2

It can be converted by using ultra violet rays, so if you have and ultra violet light of some sort. Or, if you live in an area with a large amount of sun then you would need something to filter out other light and only allow the ultra violet rays to hit the water, but make sure it is in a closed container, so that it does not evaporate.

 

[lightarrow]

Gokul43201, Will this be like to make hydrogen using huge amounts of electricity in the Electrolysis process.
So basically converting the energy into usable another form.
So if you know the process, you’re welcome to tell me.
The energy I’m going to get out of the mains if I understand you correct.

I’ve seen something like a hydrogen peroxide car and rockets and stuff.

I don't know in your country; here in italy you can buy sodium perborate or percarbonate in supermarkets; you mix it with water...voilà $$H_2O_2$$ (diluted).

If you want to find more concentrated $$H_2O_2$$ , up to ~ 35%, you can by it in an hardware shop.

You can also make it from $$BaO_2$$ and $$HCl$$, or by electrolysis of $$H_2SO_4$$.

As rocket propellant $$H_2O_2$$ should be highly cocentrated however (more than 70% according to wikipedia) and in that case it's very dangerous. Don't know how to concentrate it so much.

 

[RockyB]

H2O2 hydrogen peroxide in a highly concentrated form referred to as HTP, was used as a fuel for torpedos mid-20th century (WWII era). The primary reason for this was that through decomposition with another catalyst, the torpedo could provide it's own oxygen by liberating the additional oxygen molecule, providing oxygen to power a turbine engine which would allow it to operate submersed under water & rendering it relatively difficult to detect. Like you, I did research on H2O2 in consideration of converting my own vehicles. I have since discarded it as unfeasible. From what I've found it would be unnecessarily more expensive and complicated to build & process H2O into H2O2, to purchase & store the decomposition medium, to construct or convert a viable engine, and to keep synthesising more fuel for continued operation. You might want to consider other options. Plus some of the decomposition substances used in the past are highly toxic if not deadly if inhaled (I know from military experience that Hydrazine is particularly nasty stuff). Another problem to contend with is the high heat generated in the H2O2 decomposition process & it's effect on the operation of an engine. Granted this was not so much of a consideration for a expendable torpedo or rocket with an expected short operating lifespan, yet I doubt one would want to take a the chance on a personal vehicle engine explosions.

I presume you are NOT looking for an alternate fuel for an underwater engine anyway. So if you are looking for a cheap replacement fuel (or a partial replacement alternate fuel/petrolum fuel mix to reduce your fuel costs), for say an internal combustion engine, you might be better off going the H2O hydrogen fuel cell route instead. Those types of cells use electrolysis to separate highly flammable hydrogen from H2O for use as fuel and hydrogen burns extremely clean (Whereas the decomposing compound for an H2O2 engine would probably add to pollution), and you would be much easier to procure fuel. There is more than enough oxygen in ambient air to burn the hydrogen and if you add baking soda to the water being electrolyzed (as opposed to other suggestions such as salt, acids, lye, or other substances), the by-product is oxygen. I should warn you that hydrogen gas is very volitile when mixed with oxygen gas and can self ignite. The electralysis process creates what is called Brown's gas which cannot be stored safely. However there are ways to to construct a system to keep the gases separated and route the pure hydrogen gas straight into internal combustion system so that it does not combine with the oxygen until just before entering the combustion chamber during the intake cycle.

Another big plus is burning hydrogen does not create carbon emmissions, the con to that pro however is that if smog checks are common in you locality, you could feasibly fail a smog test because if the engine is NOT producing enough pollution (i.e. the test decides that your vehicle must have a leaking exhaust system). So the ability to temporarily adjust, bypass, or shut down the system might be a simpler option to fighting city hall.

Regardless of how nay-sayers respond, a lot of research has gone into synthesizing hydrogen through electrolysis and it is sound physics. Tesla's experiments included such devices. I personally remember seeing similar experiments being conducted in high school science class. It takes less energy to operate one of these types of devices than a vehicle's headlight. Even should you notice the additional drain on the vehicle's charging system, this is easily corrected by installing a high performance alternator. I would also recommend replacing the voltage regulator, preferably with a high performance or adjustable version so you can tweak up the output. If you still notice a problem check your starter for excessive draw, especially with older "broken in" vehicles.

I doubt that the installation a single device is a stand-alone unit sufficient to totally eliminate a need for petroleum fuel. Or that you'll win any drag races with such a device. However, single unit efficiency claims range from 10-90%improvement depending upon the device used, hydrogen output, vehicle weight, etceteras. It may take some experimentation, additional units and/or control/metering/fuel mixing devices to achieve your desired efficiency/performance goal. These units are definitely not the so-called "water injection" devices marketed in the 1980's. These are basically the same type of systems used in hybid vehicles since the beginning of the millinium. The designer of one home-made unit, claimed he purchased a hybrid vehicle solely for the purpose of disassembling it to descern how it worked and was surprised how simple it was to construct a home-made version of an electrolytic fuel cell.

In designing your unit, high grade stainless steel is preferred in constructing the adnoide & cathoids as it is relatively inexpensive, easy to obtain and more resistant to corrosion. Do not use disimilar metals, we are not interested in electroplating or making a battery here. As for servicing intervals, according to sources; in consideration of average privately owned vehicles use, you should only need to reservice the water/baking soda solution about once per month. Fill & drain ports and/or a level reservoir should be considered in your design. The entire unit should be disassembled, inspected for servicability, and cleaned annually.

In an attempt to keep this short(er); for more information & examples of such systems or conceptual help in designing your own, I recommend doing internet searches using the following terms:

"Hotsabi E-cell"
"Joecell Free Energy"
"The Power Tube"
"Brown's gas"
"Stan Meyer" or "Stanley Meyer"

Hope you find this post helpful. By the way I am just a well-read, regular guy with an open mind & no axe to grind who has always loved science & tinkering with stuff. I don't own any stock in any oil companies, I am as disgusted with fossil fuel prices as everyone else, & I have no affiliation with any of the above sources in any way shape or form.

 

[chassiz]

How to make H2O2

I actually was working on a method to produce hydrogen peroxide from water using moving magnetic fields. I took this project to the state and international science fair. Basically I borrowed from an austrian scientist Viktor Schauberger as well as some lone R&D russian researchers such as Voeikov...(no sure if that is spelled right), to make a device which generated a vortex in the presence of a very strong moving magnetic field. This spontaneously produced hydrogen peroxide in the water, not a lot, .05ppm peroxide. The fact is, it can be done, and I am currently working on a way to increase output. This project has met with ample resistance from the scientific community, but the results are there.

 

[grome22]

It can be converted by using ultra violet rays, so if you have and ultra violet light of some sort. Or, if you live in an area with a large amount of sun then you would need something to filter out other light and only allow the ultra violet rays to hit the water, but make sure it is in a closed container, so that it does not evaporate.

Possible pipe dream here but..

How about outback Australia (specifically the sparsely populated north west). Average daytime temperature in winter is around 28C. (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_004019.shtml) Plenty open arid land to build solar panels on/ ultra violet tanks/ wind farms. Close to the sea (supply of water). Capture it the hydrogen in tanks and ship it in bulk to population centres for sale as alternate fuel.

Any comments??

 

[Pat Fisher]

Try and do some good research at www.hydrogengenerator.com, You may even find me there, LtCFisher.
Hydrogen Fuel Cells or Reactors are easy to make and can produce enough fuel to run your vehicle, heat your home, or even your lawn mower. That I do know, I produce 30 some Liters a minute from one single fuel cell.

 

[the doctor]

thank you!

 

[CRGreathouse]

I actually was working on a method to produce hydrogen peroxide from water using moving magnetic fields. I took this project to the state and international science fair. Basically I borrowed from an austrian scientist Viktor Schauberger as well as some lone R&D russian researchers such as Voeikov...(no sure if that is spelled right), to make a device which generated a vortex in the presence of a very strong moving magnetic field. This spontaneously produced hydrogen peroxide in the water, not a lot, .05ppm peroxide. The fact is, it can be done, and I am currently working on a way to increase output. This project has met with ample resistance from the scientific community, but the results are there.

So you're powering a very strong magnetic field and moving it across the water, but only generating 50 parts per billion hydrogen peroxide? That's got to be a losing proposition.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Is there a way to calculate how much energy is required to convert a unit of water to hydrogen and oxygen.

How much energy can be recovered from using that recovered hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell.

and how feasible is it?

I don't know how efficient electrolysis is, but the process of recovering energy by burning it and capturing it via a turbine has a theoretical limit of around 40% efficiency (35% practical). So a 70% efficient electrolysis process followed by a 35% efficient turbine loses about three-quarters of the power you put in.

It won't ever be a power source, and it's not likely to be a feasible energy storage system (due to low efficiency and potential for explosion).

 

[chassiz]

Its definitely a waste of energy, but if anything it proves the process works. I conducted my experiment in my high school engineering room, and constructed my peroxide generator out of a plastic trashcan, a specially designed impeller(that housed the magnet), and a motor. I hoped the experiment would be a stepping stone for some further research, but at the state and international science fair it was written off as being "useless".

 

[CRGreathouse]

Did you have a control to test against? With concentrations that low, you'll forgive a bit of skepticism... I hope. If you did convert the water to hydrogen peroxide I'm curious about the mechanism.

 

[chassiz]

I tested against distilled water
control = 0ppm experiment solution = .05ppm

The only point of contention in the results was the methodology used in testing. I could not find a way to test for peroxide without using strips that changed color. I used two different types of test strips. The first brand showed .05ppm for the experimental solution, and 0ppm for the control. The second brand showed .05ppm peroxide for the experimental and the control. I later discovered that the first brand was used to determine whether or not peroxide was present, the zero value (no peroxide) was 0ppm. Thus the control showed 0ppm and the test showed .05ppm. The second brand was used to show how much peroxide was present. The zero value, the lowest value on the scale, was .05ppm. The control then was the .05ppm value, because there was no zero value. There was no way to test the control with these strips, because even the distilled water had .05ppm peroxide present. It can be looked at both ways, the second brand, second test, could indicate that the experiment didn't work, control=experiment. But, then why would the first brand indicate otherwise?

 

[Caribrooy]

Bump for this 6 month old thread.

So how would one create hydrogen peroxide from water using electrolysis?

Do share!

Ignore the cost, I want to know.

 

[Borek]

Google "making hydrogen peroxide".

 

[chassiz]

Well, I assumed in my process that it was the electrolysis that made the project work. I had an extremely powerful magnet rotating at 500RPM's in a body of water. This produced small amounts of voltage/current which then resulted in electrolysis of the water, on an very small scale.

I added super-fine bubbles of air to the system, with a diffuser, so that the separated hydrogen and oxygen would/could recombine with free oxygen particles to form the peroxide.

In my research I determined that the trick was to create a vortex in the body of water, this greatly increased the chances of the separated particles recombining to form the peroxide. As stated previously the results were mixed, but i still conclude it worked. .05ppm is still more that 0

 

[rameyer]

Interesting idea...Before i become a part of the well established and accreditted scientific comunity...( not Likely though) i'd like to suggest some "constructive" themes to maybe help a little.. 1. why combustion? there's many other types of energy transfer... like fusion...implosion etc. why steer this guys idea towards hydrogen? its already had many patents and is already being marketed. The question is H2O2 for energy. has anybody tried to think there may be certain properties to magnetic fields that can by particular arrangements can produce tremendously high voltages? OMG ! did I just say Transformer...or was it inductor ? sorry all you genius' out ther g2g now MIB at front door...

 

[chassiz]

I am so confused, who was that post directed towards?

 

[rameyer]

the general conversation was the target...um i feel like the little guy in the corner shouting that i notice something and everyone is trying to get their point across as fact...it was just a thought and it might mean nothing to anyone in here. sort of like a short gust on a still day and all are too busy to notice until they stop and say what was that? i mean no offence to anybody and hey you noticed. anyway i do think that inspiration and inclination do help more than i could hope to...have a look on some of the subversive websites and you may find more info...good luck all

 

[Todd Miller]

Take a real good look at this pdf of Stanley Meyer's WFC. It is my belief he was creating a form of H2O2. Pay close attention to his gas processor device. The answer is within it. He utilized corona discharge neg ion gen to syn O3 within his system. Along with magnetism and laser photon energy. I believe adding a UV-C bulb within the system would also aid in H2O2 generation. To back my thought he is creating H2O2. Notice in his pdf the rocket engine design or hydrogen gas gun is his 1st example. 2nd notice he is also adding argon nitrogen and other shielding like gases when using it as a fuel system for car to retard the burn rate. I have been doing experiments on this for sometime with very strange affects. Research is pointing to build his unit it will work. But you must follow his directions pretty closely to get a working system. The electrolysis of Stans was also unique. He used the cell in a resonant tank circuit feeding it a AM signal through a Modulation Transformer like in a CB radio. This formed a pulse forming network. Most of the drawings look the same because they are the same circuit used for the next process just different voltages and waveforms/pulse shaping.
Ok his pdf is too large to post here.
But you can download it at JLN Labs WFC page.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm
The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief
Direct download to Stans pdf
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/download.php?id=816
Also here is a hard to see due to laser Youtube video of mine.

 

[spikedude95]

Just saying... i live in Australia, and outback Australia is NOWHERE NEAR THE OCEAN! maps of the world are skewed into making the northern hemisphere bigger than it actually is, go online, and find the distance between the center of Australia, and the coast. I think you'll find it to be quite great.

 

[macrocorp]

Please, everyone who is reading this, a human tragedy is happening right now in Haiti, and I, as the Vice President of BioGard Inc. have been working with the Clinton/Bush relief agency for Haiti to try to have some impact on this devastation.
The physicians there tell me that they need a method to locally manufacture about a 5 to 8 percent solution of hydrogen peroxide for cleansing- the need is desparate and immediate.
I couldn't care less about rocket fuel or any such lofty goals, just a 5 to 8 percent solution.
The only thing we have to work with here is the local rainwater, which is fairly clean. What electrolysis tricks do any of you have up your sleeve to make this stuff?
I'm an electronics engineer by training, not a chemist- but I can put together any electro-mechanical you guys can think up.

I'm begging anybody out there for help on this; the Cholera epedemic is starting to get out of control, and the media is full of **** when they say it's under control... I know what I'm talking about because we are there!

We have solar power available, just tell me what electrodes, reactors, voltages, currents, etc. you need and I'll make it happen. Children are dying every day; and with the daily rain, everything floods and the sanitary conditions are deplorable... everything gets covered with fecal matter, and they don't even have the basics to wash themselves with; that's why they need the h2o2.

We're all smart people reading this, someone out there has to know how to do this. I emplore anyone capable to please help.

Steve Apelman, Vice President
BioGard Inc.

 

[Borek]

Two commonly used processes are described in wikipedia, both need additional reagents. As far as I know, there is no way of making hydrogen peroxide electrolytically without them.

 

[chemisttree]

Direct synthesis methods for producing H2O2 involve mixing hydrogen and oxygen gas at high pressure. Very dangerous and very equipment intensive. Headwaters has a process that makes http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...ers&RS="hydrogen+peroxide"+AND+AN/headwaters". Perhaps the process can be adapted to use isopropanol so that the effluent can be used directly for cleansing. I'd get in touch with Headwaters. You might be able to locally generate hydrogen and oxygen to feed the system.

 

[Borek]

I know someone who had about 15 years ago a small factory producing hydrogen peroxide, I think they were using peroxodisulfate method. If they could manage it, it must be relatively simple. But - sorry - I am not going to ask about details.

 

[JamesJordaan]

Fact is you people seem to be missing the point. It may be about energy on demand.

It does not matter what the efficiencies are or where the power comes from but that H2O2 is a concentrated form of energy and that this energy can be very effectively released on demand. And that storage is usually not a problem.

He/She who said burning H2O2 produces pollution is nuts: H2O2 + silver = H20 + 0 + heat! - It's clean
fuel cells are not!

Also when it comes to efficiencies take note that enough energy passes over every square meter of land (on average) to power up an entire household BUT converting it to something useful, and to be available at the right time is the catch!

There are a number of methods available to produce H2O2 - chemical (industrial) and electrical (hobby (: )

Then there are a number of methods available to concentrate the mixture (scientific, industrial, hobby) p.s. try freezing it, H2O and H2O2 freeze at different temperatures. Otherwise if you can afford it the Brazilian made stills are the best high grade concentrators.

Some nut job in New Zeeland has figured out a car battery sized gadget that does the conversion as well. - no details.

P.S. H2O2 is dangerous - reacts like acid to the skin. Keep it in a cool place, Must be able to breath. If you want to make a bomb just put some in a sealed container and place it out in the direct sun (heat increases the decomposition and that releases more heat = bomb)

H2O2 is the answer to depleted fossil fuels. and currently the Chinese can produce it at 1/3 the cost of Petrol.

 

[JamesJordaan]

I research this topic several years ago and the closest that I got was a process similar to electrolesis,

In that you had a tank of water, and positive and negative electrodes, in the water, but what put me off was the use of specialized materials such as platinum... I do remember that while this system did produce H2 and O2 at the electrodes it also produced H2O2 between the electrodes. There was also a pipe feeding O2 in between the two electrodes. The trick was knowing exactly where the H2O2 was forming and to siphon the H2O2 out of the tank directly at that point. I never did find "that point"

how to detect H2O2? - another interesting topic.