Lagrangian is a function of

In summary, the Lagrangian is a function of q, q dot & time, but in describing the Hamiltonian (H), L does not involve time explicitly. This is because, if the Lagrangian does not depend explicitly on time, then the Hamiltonian coincides with the energy of the system. However, the Hamiltonian can also be defined when the Lagrangian explicitly depends on time. The Hamiltonian is generated from the Lagrangian by doing a Legendre transform. The natural variables for H are q, p, and t, and there are specific relations between these variables and the partial derivatives of H. The Lagrangian and Hamiltonian can both be explicitly time dependent, depending on the problem at hand.
  • #1
astro2cosmos
71
0
Lagrangian is a function of ...

Since Lagrangian is a function of q, q dot & time, then why in describing the Hamiltonian (H), L does not involve time explicitly?
as H = (p*q dot) - L (q, q dot).
 
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  • #2
It should. The crucial point is that, if the Lagrangian doesn't depend explicitly on time then the Hamiltonian coincides with the energy of the system. However, H is defined also when L explicitly depends on t.
 
  • #3
astro2cosmos, where did you get that equation from? Formally, the Hamiltonian is generated from the Lagrangian by doing a Legendre transform (If you replacy only some of the generalized coordinates by their conjugate momentums, you get a Routh's function, by the way), see Arnol'd or, for a simpler treatment, Landau/Lifshitz; So what should prevent you from treating additional variables? What is true anyway, is

[itex]\frac{\partial \mathcal H}{\partial t} = \frac{\mathrm d \mathcal H}{\mathrm d t}[/itex].

Besides that, in a closed inertial system, time is homogenous.
 
  • #4
Forgotten: For any parameter, including time, the following relation is true:

[itex]\left( \frac{\partial \mathcal H}{\partial \lambda} \right)_{p, q} = - \left( \frac{\partial \mathcal L}{\partial \lambda} \right)_{p, q}[/itex]
 
  • #5
The Lagrangian and the Hamiltonian both can also be explicitly time dependent. The Lagrangian is a function of [itex]q[/itex], [itex]\dot{q}[/itex], and (sometimes) of time. The Hamiltonian is the Legendre transformation of the Lagrangian wrt. [itex]\dot{q}[/itex] vs. the canonical momentum
[tex]p=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}},[/tex]
i.e.,
[tex]H=p \cdot \dot{q}-L.[/tex]
The total differential is
[tex]\mathrm{d} H=\mathrm{d}p \cdot \dot{q} + p \cdot \mathrm{d} \dot{q}-\mathrm{d} q \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}-\mathrm{d} \dot{q} \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}-\mathrm{d} t \frac{\partial L}{\partial t}=p \cdot \mathrm{d} \dot{q}-\mathrm{d} q \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}-\mathrm{d} t \frac{\partial L}{\partial t}.[/tex]
From this you read off that the "natural variables" for [itex]H[/itex] are indeed [itex]q[/itex], [itex]p[/itex], and [itex]t[/itex], and that the following relations hold
[tex]\left (\frac{\partial H}{\partial p} \right)_{q,t}=\dot{q}, \quad \left (\frac{\partial H}{\partial q} \right)_{p,t}=-\left (\frac{\partial L}{\partial q} \right )_{\dot{q},t}, \quad \left (\frac{\partial H}{\partial t} \right )_{q,p}=-\left (\frac{\partial L}{\partial t} \right)_{q,\dot{q}}.[/tex]
It is important to keep in mind that in the latter relations different variables are kept fixed when the partial derivative wrt. to the pertinent variable is taken on both sides of this equation! That's why I put the variables to be hold fixed in the different cases as subscipts of the parantheses around the partial derivative explicitly!
 
  • #6
vanhees71 said:
The Lagrangian and the Hamiltonian both can also be explicitly time dependent. The Lagrangian is a function of [itex]q[/itex], [itex]\dot{q}[/itex], and (sometimes) of time. The Hamiltonian is the Legendre transformation of the Lagrangian wrt. [itex]\dot{q}[/itex] vs. the canonical momentum
[tex]p=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}},[/tex]
i.e.,
[tex]H=p \cdot \dot{q}-L.[/tex]
The total differential is
[tex]\mathrm{d} H=\mathrm{d}p \cdot \dot{q} + p \cdot \mathrm{d} \dot{q}-\mathrm{d} q \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}-\mathrm{d} \dot{q} \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}-\mathrm{d} t \frac{\partial L}{\partial t}=p \cdot \mathrm{d} \dot{q}-\mathrm{d} q \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}-\mathrm{d} t \frac{\partial L}{\partial t}.[/tex]
From this you read off that the "natural variables" for [itex]H[/itex] are indeed [itex]q[/itex], [itex]p[/itex], and [itex]t[/itex], and that the following relations hold
[tex]\left (\frac{\partial H}{\partial p} \right)_{q,t}=\dot{q}, \quad \left (\frac{\partial H}{\partial q} \right)_{p,t}=-\left (\frac{\partial L}{\partial q} \right )_{\dot{q},t}, \quad \left (\frac{\partial H}{\partial t} \right )_{q,p}=-\left (\frac{\partial L}{\partial t} \right)_{q,\dot{q}}.[/tex]
It is important to keep in mind that in the latter relations different variables are kept fixed when the partial derivative wrt. to the pertinent variable is taken on both sides of this equation! That's why I put the variables to be hold fixed in the different cases as subscipts of the parantheses around the partial derivative explicitly!

for what condition L is independent of time?
 
  • #8
It depends on the problem. The Lagrangian may depend explicitly on time, for example, in a system where a bead is sliding on a moving ring or something. Which means that it is not a closed system because some other system exchanges energy with it. So no conservation of energy, which you can see from the equations about that the time derivative of the Hamiltonian doesn't vanish.

Greets
 

What is the Lagrangian function?

The Lagrangian function, also known as the Lagrangian, is a mathematical function that describes the dynamics of a physical system in terms of its position and velocity. It is used in the field of classical mechanics to predict the motion of a system over time.

What are the variables in the Lagrangian function?

The variables in the Lagrangian function are the generalized coordinates and their corresponding velocities. These variables represent the degrees of freedom of the system and are used to describe its motion.

What is the significance of the Lagrangian function in physics?

The Lagrangian function is significant in physics because it allows us to express the equations of motion of a system in a more elegant and concise form than using Newton's laws. It also helps us to understand the underlying symmetries and conservation laws of a physical system.

How is the Lagrangian function related to the principle of least action?

The Lagrangian function is related to the principle of least action through the Euler-Lagrange equations. These equations state that the path taken by a system between two points in time is the one that minimizes the action, which is the integral of the Lagrangian over time.

What are some applications of the Lagrangian function?

The Lagrangian function has various applications in physics, such as in classical mechanics, quantum mechanics, and field theory. It is also used in other fields, such as engineering, robotics, and economics, to model and analyze dynamic systems.

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