Needing Sincere Honesty from the men on Here

[vela]

I realize this is an issue that I do need to learn to deal with. After arguing so much about something him and I clearly disagree on for any extended period of time (this general topic has be a touchy subject from the day we started dating) I am emotionally fatigued.

We've made compromises about how he can feel comfortable in the relationship, but I am left disappointed in his thinking, but maybe he is correct...

The fact that it's been a touchy subject from day one and that you're still arguing about it a few years later suggest to me that perhaps you two just aren't right for each other, at least right now. It sounds like you've tried to accommodate him, and it's making you very unhappy. It's often hard to give up on a relationship, but at some point, you have to concede it's not working.

 

[alt]

TR1KK1;

If your bf had a few close female friends and wanted to be with them independent of you, would you be OK with that ?

 

[TR1KK1]

TR1KK1;

If your bf had a few close female friends and wanted to be with them independent of you, would you be OK with that ?

Had it been before he made the comment that guys only have girl friends so they can sleep with them, and he "knows" because "he's a guy", I would have been fine with it.

I don't have insecurity issues, I trust that he loves me and values our relationship and wouldn't cheat on me. To me the sex of a person holds no dominion over friendship, as I believe it's based on having similar interests and enjoying each others company. To him, however, it does, so at this point I wouldn't feel very comfortable if he started hanging out with the girls he used to before we dated now that I know how he feels about women, and their role to him.

If I didn't trust him 100% on that subject, I wouldn't be with him.

 

[DanP]

To him, however, it does, so at this point I wouldn't feel very comfortable if he started hanging out with the girls he used to before we dated now that I know how he feels about women, and their role to him.

If I didn't trust him 100% on that subject, I wouldn't be with him.

You contradict yourself. It seems that you have issues of trust as well :P But you project your insecurities on his supposed perception of the world.

 

[Office_Shredder]

He stated that if he had a girl friend, it would be for the purposes of sleeping with her. Why shouldn't she take his word on that? That's not trust issues, that's trusting what he said

 

[DanP]

He stated that if he had a girl friend, it would be for the purposes of sleeping with her. Why shouldn't she take his word on that? That's not trust issues, that's trusting what he said

He has a girlfriend. Her :P Realize that, please.

 

[Kevin9679]

He has a girlfriend. Her :P Realize that, please.

... So?
I agree. She's just trusting what he told her about guys' relations with girls.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yeah, Dan. Gotta agree with Shredder and Kevin on this.

He has stated his view of girl friends (note that that is two words, not one). Taking him at his word is not a "trust issue".

 

[DanP]

I guess I see the contradiction between:

I trust that he loves me and values our relationship and wouldn't cheat on me

and

wouldn't feel very comfortable if he started hanging out with the girls he used to before we dated now that I know how he feels about women, and their role to him.

Trust is trust. You either trust he won't cheat, which she states in first sentence, either you dont, which she states in the second. There is no middle way here. She is insecure, and what's worst, she seems to be insecure in the exact the same scenario she puts the guy through.

Besides, my point is, that even if he stated that " ... if he had a girl friend, it would be for the purposes of sleeping with her" this fact can not be used to gauge his cheating behavior. It may mean that he is with the OP for the sole purpose of having sex, but that's all IMO.

So yeah, if OP does not feels comfortable with him being alone with other women, she should not put him though the same situation. (i.e she being alone with man) She claims balance and trust , but few lines
after she goes on about how she would not feel comfortable in the same situation. Why the hell doe she expect him to feel comfortable with what she does ? Egoistic reasons, and perhaps a "holier than you" attitude ( see her reasoning about what she perceives as his image of women)

 

[jackmell]

Trust-smush. You can't. I mean you just can't. It shouldn't even be an issue unless you're young and naive. Lemme' put it more bluntly: the only men a girl can really trust fully is her dad and brother and sometimes not even them. So not granddad, not uncle, not step-dad (obviously), not husband, not boyfriend, and for sure that guy that does work on the house.

You just can't trust them. Now, she's gonna' learn that the easy way or she's gonna' learn that the hard way. Ask any woman older than 40 that's been with more than a few men if they trust guys. Some may not admit it because they don't want to be portrayed as man-haters but in private, many I believe would say no.

 

[DanP]

Trust-smush. You can't. I mean you just can't. It shouldn't even be an issue unless you're young and naive. Lemme' put it more bluntly: the only men a girl can really trust fully is her dad and brother and sometimes not even them. So not granddad, not uncle, not step-dad (obviously), not husband, not boyfriend, and for sure that guy that does work on the house.

You just can't trust them.

Sexist to the bone.

 

[jackmell]

Sexist to the bone.

I don't hate men. Just don't like what many do in relationships and having a daughter just makes it much, much worst. I'm not perfect either; never have been good swinging at fast-balls. The whole subject is one I'm interested in and so I've read a lot, seen a lot, and talked a lot about it. Many times the things I see are reprehensible. I'm jaded now.

 

[WhoWee]

Trust-smush. You can't. I mean you just can't. It shouldn't even be an issue unless you're young and naive. Lemme' put it more bluntly: the only men a girl can really trust fully is her dad and brother and sometimes not even them. So not granddad, not uncle, not step-dad (obviously), not husband, not boyfriend, and for sure that guy that does work on the house.

You just can't trust them. Now, she's gonna' learn that the easy way or she's gonna' learn that the hard way. Ask any woman older than 40 that's been with more than a few men if they trust guys. Some may not admit it because they don't want to be portrayed as man-haters but in private, many I believe would say no.

At the same time, ask any woman who remarried over 40 if they trust their new partner and I suspect the results will be better. The step-dad results should also be better - over 40.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Trust is trust. You either trust he won't cheat, which she states in first sentence, either you dont, which she states in the second. There is no middle way here. She is insecure, and what's worst, she seems to be insecure in the exact the same scenario she puts the guy through.

But he isn't hanging out with any female friends because he doesn't want to cheat. There's no contradiction here. If he did start hanging out with them, then the trust would be gone, because he told her that if he has any female friends, it means he's trying to cheat on her.

The opposite is not true though; she says that she has male friends not for the purposes of sleeping with them

 

[DanP]

But he isn't hanging out with any female friends because he doesn't want to cheat. There's no contradiction here. If he did start hanging out with them, then the trust would be gone, because he told her that if he has any female friends, it means he's trying to cheat on her.

The opposite is not true though; she says that she has male friends not for the purposes of sleeping with them

That's bull. You have no idea why he would hang on with females, or if he wants to cheat or not.

 

[DanP]

I don't hate men. Just don't like what many do in relationships and having a daughter just makes it much, much worst. I'm not perfect either; never have been good swinging at fast-balls. The whole subject is one I'm interested in and so I've read a lot, seen a lot, and talked a lot about it. Many times the things I see are reprehensible. I'm jaded now.

Daughters are no angles either. Every women out there is someone's daughter :P

I like to say that men and women deserve each other. None is better than the other.

 

[TR1KK1]

I guess I see the contradiction between:



and



Trust is trust. You either trust he won't cheat, which she states in first sentence, either you dont, which she states in the second. There is no middle way here. She is insecure, and what's worst, she seems to be insecure in the exact the same scenario she puts the guy through.

Besides, my point is, that even if he stated that " ... if he had a girl friend, it would be for the purposes of sleeping with her" this fact can not be used to gauge his cheating behavior. It may mean that he is with the OP for the sole purpose of having sex, but that's all IMO.

So yeah, if OP does not feels comfortable with him being alone with other women, she should not put him though the same situation. (i.e she being alone with man) She claims balance and trust , but few lines
after she goes on about how she would not feel comfortable in the same situation. Why the hell doe she expect him to feel comfortable with what she does ? Egoistic reasons, and perhaps a "holier than you" attitude ( see her reasoning about what she perceives as his image of women)

Alright, let me try to clarify this for you. Had I been asked if I were comfortable with him hanging out with other girls prior to the day before I started this post I would have said, "Of course!" It would have truly made no difference to me.

The day before I started this post he said to me, "No guy would ever want to hang out with a girl, or would hang out with a girl unless they were trying to sleep with them."

So, if he were to hang out with other girls that would mean he was trying to cheat on me. I think that knowing your partner was done with you and trying to replace you while you were still in the picture would make any normal person feel a bit uncomfortable.

Now, I should clarify, let's say he wants to go golfing with a buddy and his friend brings maybe his girlfriend and one of her friend's; no problem, it's golf, not an orgy.

If he were to go to a party, bet there's going to be other girls there and due to knowing the type of girls around here (get some drinks in them and they're giving blowjobs to random guys in a park, type thing) I'm sure he'd at least get hit on; no problem, he's at a party having a good time with friends, not scouting out my replacement.

So, I have no problem with him being around other women, if you hadn't noticed, there's women EVERYWHERE! It's if he were to pursue develping a friendship with a woman now after he told me, speaking from his own expirience, a guy would never do that unless he was trying to screw her that would make me uncomfortable.
Holy crap, if I got upset about every woman that came closer than 10 ft from him, I'd probably be bald by now. haha

So, there is no double-standard here. I never said to him, "Yeah, well, all you men are good for is a hard dick and entertainment for the night." Then turn around and say, "Well, alright hun, I'm gunna go hang out with Nick. See you later."

 

[DanP]

Alright, let me try to clarify this for you.

No, let me clarify something for you. You either trust him, either dont. You can't have both. At this moment it appears you don't trust him.

 

[TR1KK1]

So, if he were to hang out with other girls that would mean he was trying to cheat on me. I think that knowing your partner was done with you and trying to replace you while you were still in the picture would make any normal person feel a bit uncomfortable."

I feel like I need to clarify; when I say "hang out" here, I'm meaning steady as in they are friends and do things together on a regular basis. Like I said, there's going to be situations where he'll have to hang out with a girl besides me.

 

[DanP]

I feel like I need to clarify; when I say "hang out" here, I'm meaning steady as in they are friends and do things together on a regular basis. Like I said, there's going to be situations where he'll have to hang out with a girl besides me.

The irony is, while you don't trust your boyfriend (who by your own admission loves you and you believe he would not cheat on you) because he said that man only hag with girls if they want to screw them, you have choose to ignore this when it comes to your male friends. You choose to believe that they are not so, they are good and immaculate.

So it seems when it comes to men, you choose to trust your men friends rather than your boyfriend.

 

[TR1KK1]

Dan, how do you figure I don't trust him? I don't worry or stress about what he's doing, and who he's with.

Say some day he were to develope a friendship with another girl. I would confront him about it to find out what the real deal is, because:

1. He finally pulled his head from his *** to realize that a girl and a guy can be just friends without sexual attraction.

2. He doesn't want to be with me any more.

If it were scenerio 1. then wonderful, finally he could see my side of things and relax a bit, and if she started dating one of my guy friends the 4 of us could do fun things all together, and that would be frikken awesome!

If it were scenerio 2. then heartbreak, the trust would be gone, but it wouldn't matter because i would be too.

 

[DanP]

Dan, how do you figure I don't trust him? I don't worry or stress about what he's doing, and who he's with.

Because you say that if he hangs out with women, it would make you uncomfortable. If you trust him, it shouldn't.

 

[Office_Shredder]

That's bull. You have no idea why he would hang on with females, or if he wants to cheat or not.

No! He said that the only reason men hang out with women is to sleep with them, and his reasoning for why he knows that it's true? Because that's how he thinks. He's told you what his motivation is.

Unless he has developed psychic powers however, he doesn't actually know how other men think

 

[DanP]

No! He said that the only reason men hang out with women is to sleep with them, and his reasoning for why he knows that it's true? Because that's how he thinks. He's told you what his motivation is.

Unless he has developed psychic powers however, he doesn't actually know how other men think

No. You don't need psychic powers, just a string of experiences to form a stereotype. While it doesn't hold true for ALL man, it may very hold true for the typical male in his groups. This is how human mind works, and stereotypical heuristics are usually accurate in describing groups.

You have chosen to believe that he "knows" because he is a representative of that kind of man. I am rather inclined to believe that what he said is the result of stereotyping the groups in his community and age bracket. It's a common phenomena.

 

[TR1KK1]

The irony is, while you don't trust your boyfriend (who by your own admission loves you and you believe he would not cheat on you) because he said that man only hag with girls if they want to screw them, you have choose to ignore this when it comes to your male friends. You choose to believe that they are not so, they are good and immaculate.

So it seems when it comes to men, you choose to trust your men friends rather than your boyfriend.

Hmm, I'm going to have to pull away from the "trust" topic for this one. That's maybe not an issue of trust , more a disagreement between my bf and I on our opinions on the male psyche. Not every man thinks exactly the same, just as not every woman thinks exactly the same.

1. Alright, I don't believe that every guy only hangs out with women to sleep with them.

2. Even if my guy friends did first start hanging out with me hoping to date me (or whatever) over all the years I've made it clear that I have no attraction to them in that way, and have bluntly stated nurmerous times that we would NEVER hook up. These comments have been snuck into converstaions over the years just to make sure it was always understood that we are friends, that's it. So, I like to believe they've stuck around this long to enjoy my shining personality.

Believe me, I'm not so ignorant to think my guy friends are saints, but they are good people. They make me happy, and I want to share that with my boyfriend, I want all of us to be able to be the closest of friends.

 

[TR1KK1]

Unless he has developed psychic powers however, he doesn't actually know how other men think

Thank You.

No. You don't need psychic powers, just a string of experiences to form a stereotype.

lol, I do agree with you on why he may think the way he does, but, Shredder's right, not all guys think as he does. A child raised in a home that focused on respect for women, ie. how their father treats their mother would more than likely grow up to have a higher regard for women. However, he can't "know" what all men think because he's going off of a stereotype. That's just out right rediculous.

 

[DanP]

Hmm, I'm going to have to pull away from the "trust" topic for this one. That's maybe not an issue of trust , more a disagreement between my bf and I on our opinions on the male psyche. Not every man thinks exactly the same, just as not every woman thinks exactly the same.

1. Alright, I don't believe that every guy only hangs out with women to sleep with them.

2. Even if my guy friends did first start hanging out with me hoping to date me (or whatever) over all the years I've made it clear that I have no attraction to them in that way, and have bluntly stated nurmerous times that we would NEVER hook up. These comments have been snuck into converstaions over the years just to make sure it was always understood that we are friends, that's it. So, I like to believe they've stuck around this long to enjoy my shining personality.

Believe me, I'm not so ignorant to think my guy friends are saints, but they are good people. They make me happy, and I want to share that with my boyfriend, I want all of us to be able to be the closest of friends.

Yes. So we came back to what I said in my first post in this thread. Let's keep the big words like trust out of this, else we won't see the forest because of the trees. Your problem is simple. You don't like how he thinks. He doesn't like what you do. You really only have 2 options:

- negotiate to a point where all parts feel comfortable.
- if you fail, split.

but chances are no men I know would tolerate you very intimate behavior with other men. Most balanced individuals will have no issues with you having male friends, and share a good deal with them, but they'll draw a line somewhere if you appear to care more for your friends than of him.

 

[DanP]

However, he can't "know" what all men think because he's going off of a stereotype. That's just out right rediculous.

You would be surprised how accurate are the stereotypes of groups. stereotyping is an essential psychological mechanism in humans , extremely useful and many times uncannily exact, even if they are not based on objective facts. Id go so far to say that stereotyping is essential in helping humans cope with the complexity of social world.

While you think its ridiculous, stereotyping can be exact. It has no value in describing individuals, but it does for groups. And humans are trapped in stereotypes. They are here to stay. Because they are efficient .


The only ridiculous thing here is to claim you need psychic powers to describe groups.

 

[TR1KK1]

You would be surprised how accurate are the stereotypes of groups. stereotyping is an essential psychological mechanism in humans , extremely useful and many times uncannily exact, even if they are not based on objective facts. Id go so far to say that stereotyping is essential in helping humans cope with the complexity of social world.

While you think its ridiculous, stereotyping can be exact. It has no value in describing individuals, but it does for groups. And humans are trapped in stereotypes. They are here to stay. Because they are efficient .


The only ridiculous thing here is to claim you need psychic powers to describe groups.

I'd be surprised how accurate certain stereotypes are? Well, if you're stereotyping a specific group, bc they're all individuals, some will back up the stereotype, and others will prove it wrong. There's lots of people in the world so of course there would be lots of times
the stereotype was accurate. You leave out, however, the amount of people that break the mold.
Maybe if you develope psychic powers one day you can track me down and give me those numbers. haha

You even admit it has no value in describing individuals. So it's pointless to use stereotyping when we are examining specific people. So maybe instead of believing the stereotype, my guy should believe that these people in my life are quite possibly some of the few that break the mold, and show that stereotypes are not always correct. Stereotyping can be dangerous.

"Id go so far to say that stereotyping is essential in helping humans cope with the complexity of social world."

I believe you are correct... and it makes me sad that it's that way.

 

[DanP]

I'd be surprised how accurate certain stereotypes are? Well, if you're stereotyping a specific group, bc they're all individuals, some will back up the stereotype, and others will prove it wrong. There's lots of people in the world so of course there would be lots of times
the stereotype was accurate. You leave out, however, the amount of people that break the mold.
Maybe if you develope psychic powers one day you can track me down and give me those numbers. haha

You even admit it has no value in describing individuals. So it's pointless to use stereotyping when we are examining specific people. So maybe instead of believing the stereotype, my guy should believe that these people in my life are quite possibly some of the few that break the mold, and show that stereotypes are not always correct. Stereotyping can be dangerous.

"Id go so far to say that stereotyping is essential in helping humans cope with the complexity of social world."

I believe you are correct... and it makes me sad that it's that way.

Stereotyping is efficient. Its only pointless to stereotype individuals, its not pointless to stereotype "specific ppl", a group, as you call them. Don't be sad about it, a significant part of human social cognition revolves around schemata , stereotypes included. You do it, I dot, everybody does it. The benefits of stereotyping exceed the negative parts.

 

[TR1KK1]

Stereotyping is efficient. Its only pointless to stereotype individuals, its not pointless to stereotype "specific ppl", a group, as you call them. Don't be sad about it, a significant part of human social cognition revolves around schemata , stereotypes included. You do it, I dot, everybody does it.

By "specific people", I was referring to individuals within the group.

 

[Dale]

Assuming that your male friends are not rapists then your boyfriend's discomfort is not about them, it is about you and him. It is impossible for us to know whether the root of his unease is some rational reaction to your behavior or an irrational result of some dysfunction of his personality. And in the end, it doesn't really matter which it is, the fact is that it is an issue in the relationship. So you have two choices, either drop the boyfriend or drop the male friends. That choice may hinge quite strongly on your ability to answer the rational/irrational question for yourself.

 

[proof]

if i find out a girl has more guy friends than girl friends i cut things off immediately. i can't tell you how many times I've tried to give a girl with a disproportionate amount of guy friends the benefit of the doubt but it will never work out. every single girl I've been with who has had more guy friends than girls has had pretty severe psychological issues. now if i know this from the beginning i will just avoid them. no point in starting a relationship that is doomed to fail from the beginning.
this isn't to say i have anything against "tomboys"/girls with interests in things that usually guys like, or girls who have a couple close guy friends, but there is always something wrong with a girl who has few or no girl friends and many guy friends.

also this:
"no man has any interest at all in spending time with a woman, or talking to them unless he is in pursuit of sleeping with her. He says that any guy friends I have are only hanging around in hopes that some day they will be able to **** me. "
is generally very true, girls are usually just too blind / delusional to see it.

 

[proof]

i'm not saying every single girl with more guy friends is like this, the op may be one of the exceptions to the rule, but chances are that if a girl has many guy friends and few or no girl friends, there is something wrong with her and it's better to not even attempt a relationship with her.
i've discussed with a lot of my guy friends also and they tend to agree with me. in the beginning there were a couple guys in our group who were like "no way man, it doesn't matter at all, it's good she's into guy things" but when we asked them to think about a girl in their past who had more guy friends and what went wrong it's always the same thing. one of the worst relationships/breakups. when they think about it they recall that if the girl had more guy friends she was usually pretty messed up in the head.
i've actually talked about this with a few of my ex girlfriends as well and they agreed that girls who don't have girl friends are usually trouble. there is a reason they can't form close relationships with people of a same sex.

edit: so much for op being exception to the rule. i just read the entire thread and i think you can all see what i mean now.

 

[fictionftw]

when they think about it they recall that if the girl had more guy friends she was usually pretty messed up in the head.

I feel like you're going to get a lot of crap for this, but the two girls that I know that do have almost exclusively guy friends, are both really attention-needy and like to get attention by flirting with their guy friends.

This one girl, Bayley (that I met through a guy friend) had only guy friends, and didn't have girl friends because apparently she thought that girls were catty, etc. But when I met her, she was pushy and full of herself, and I didn't like her and couldn't really see why anybody would. But after hanging out with her in her group of guys, it was easy to see why she had them as friends at least - her pushiness turned into flirtiness, the condescension turned into playful ribbing - they were sort of all vying for her attention, and she loved it. They were all her puppets in her little flirting game. It was gross to watch because it was very clear she had no actual interest in any of them, but was manipulating them all for the sake of quick ego boost.

Blech.