Why can't an electron have a even lower energy level in atom?

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of an electron having a lower energy level and being closer to the nucleus in an atom, and the possibility of it fusing with a proton to form a neutron. The limitations of the uncertainty principle and the role of physical intuition in understanding quantum mechanics are also mentioned. It is noted that while schrodingers equation can accurately describe the behavior of electrons in atoms, it may not fully explain the specific situation mentioned.
  • #1
Edi
177
1
Why can't an electron have a even lower energy level in atom and be closer to the nuclei? (as the next step is to fuse with one of the protons and make neutron.. )
 
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  • #2
Edi said:
Why can't an electron have a even lower energy level in atom and be closer to the nuclei? (as the next step is to fuse with one of the protons and make neutron.. )

You are asking why a differential equation doesn't have more solutions than it does. The answer would be analogous to the question "why is there no integer between 0 and 1?" It's not clear to me that such questions have scientific answers, and are instead probably best left to metaphysics and philosophy.
 
  • #3
Well, there are limits due to the uncertainty principle. If you cram the electron closer to the nucleus you are restricting its position, so its momentum goes up accordingly and you've actually done the opposite to what you wanted. I think the opposite argument would be something like if you reduce its momentum then its position "spreads out" more, increasing the system's potential energy, so also you come undone.
 
  • #4
Pretty much what fzero said

It's got nothing to do with quantum mechanics having some understanding of things like
'as the next step is to fuse with one of the protons and make neutron.. '

When you play about with the hydrogen atom you say that there is a point charge at r=0 that doesn't move or do anything interesting.
 
  • #5
genericusrnme said:
Pretty much what fzero said

It's got nothing to do with quantum mechanics having some understanding of things like
'as the next step is to fuse with one of the protons and make neutron.. '

When you play about with the hydrogen atom you say that there is a point charge at r=0 that doesn't move or do anything interesting.

Well, that's not entirely true. An inner-shell electron CAN "fuse with one of the protons to make a neutron", it is called electron capture, but it is of course only energetically beneficial if the new nucleus has a lower ground state energy, so if you start from a nice stable nucleus you cannot lower the energy of the system this way.
 
  • #6
kurros said:
Well, that's not entirely true. An inner-shell electron CAN "fuse with one of the protons to make a neutron", it is called electron capture, but it is of course only energetically beneficial if the new nucleus has a lower ground state energy, so if you start from a nice stable nucleus you cannot lower the energy of the system this way.

I didn't say it couldn't, but that isn't built into schrodingers eigenvalue equation
 
  • #7
genericusrnme said:
I didn't say it couldn't, but that isn't built into schrodingers eigenvalue equation

Of course, but the question is about what actually happens, not just what schrodingers equation says happens. Likewise I disagree with fzero's comment that we shouldn't worry about the physical intuition behind what is going on, and should just be happy that we found a nice differential equation which gives the right answers. We'd still be stuck at the level of Newton if we decided back then that we were happy that our math described every experiment we could muster up and ignored the unsatisfactory aspects of the physical intuition behind it.
 
  • #8
kurros said:
Of course, but the question is about what actually happens, not just what schrodingers equation says happens.

Without using maths you cannot describe what 'actually' happens, people aren't from the microscopic world, we don't have the correct brains for it.

Would you argue about me using F=ma to describe and predict the motion of a cannon ball?
It's a second order differential equation, just like schrodingers eigenvalue equation.
 
  • #9
genericusrnme said:
Without using maths you cannot describe what 'actually' happens, people aren't from the microscopic world, we don't have the correct brains for it.

Would you argue about me using F=ma to describe and predict the motion of a cannon ball?
It's a second order differential equation, just like schrodingers eigenvalue equation.

Of course you must use math to explain what 'actually' happens, but physical intuition is extremely important for developing that math in the first place and understanding what it means.

I don't know what your point about cannonball motion is. I am not objecting to using schrodingers equation to describe electrons in atomic potentials, of course it works very well, but it is not the full story and doesn't explain the specific point raised by the OP. They were absolutely right that the energy of the total system can be lowered that way sometimes and deserved some explanation of what actually happens in that situation and why it does not occur in most atoms. Saying simply that "schrodingers equation says no" doesn't teach anyone terribly much.
 

1. Why can't an electron have a even lower energy level in atom?

The energy levels of an electron in an atom are determined by its quantum numbers, specifically the principal quantum number, n. This number dictates the distance of the electron from the nucleus and thus, its energy level. According to the laws of quantum mechanics, an electron cannot occupy energy levels lower than its ground state, n=1. This is because lower energy levels require the electron to be closer to the nucleus, which violates the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle that states that the position and momentum of a particle cannot be known simultaneously.

2. What determines the energy levels of an electron in an atom?

The energy levels of an electron in an atom are determined by its quantum numbers, specifically the principal quantum number, n. This number dictates the distance of the electron from the nucleus and thus, its energy level. The higher the value of n, the further the electron is from the nucleus and the higher its energy level.

3. Is it possible for an electron to have a negative energy level?

No, it is not possible for an electron to have a negative energy level. The energy levels of electrons in an atom are defined as negative values, with the ground state having an energy of 0. This is simply a convention used in quantum mechanics to distinguish between the energy levels of electrons in an atom.

4. Can an electron move between energy levels?

Yes, an electron can move between energy levels by either absorbing or emitting energy in the form of photons. When an electron absorbs a photon, it gains energy and moves to a higher energy level. Conversely, when an electron emits a photon, it loses energy and moves to a lower energy level.

5. Why does an electron occupy the lowest energy level available?

According to the Aufbau principle, electrons in an atom occupy the lowest energy levels available before moving to higher energy levels. This is due to the principle of energy minimization, where the electron seeks to occupy the most stable and lowest energy state possible. This is also why electrons fill orbitals in a specific order, following the rules of the Pauli exclusion principle and Hund's rule.

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