Can Time Contract? Physics Teacher Bet

[Pinto da Cost]

My question is simple. I made a bet with my physics teacher.
I believe time can contract. When two bodies are moving away, one of each other, time expands for both. each one will see the ohter's time expanding.
When they are becoming more and more close, they will see each other more in the "present". (the distance between them will be shorter, so the time light takes to make the path will be shorter. thus, time have to contract because, in my opinion, is the only way to see the other in a shorter distance in TIME).
That is why i believe time can contract.
I will wait your answer. Thanks

 

[Hootenanny]

My question is simple. I made a bet with my physics teacher.
I believe time can contract. When two bodies are moving away, one of each other, time expands for both. each one will see the ohter's time expanding.
When they are becoming more and more close, they will see each other more in the "present". (the distance between them will be shorter, so the time light takes to make the path will be shorter. thus, time have to contract because, in my opinion, is the only way to see the other in a shorter distance in TIME).
That is why i believe time can contract.
I will wait your answer. Thanks

Well, I'm afraid that you've lost the bet with you physics teacher

Even for two bodies moving towards one another, time still dilates. There is no time contraction. It can be seen from the Lorentz transformations that the time measured in a reference frame moving relative to two events (which occur in the same reference frame) will always be greater than the proper time.

 

[Pinto da Cost]

thanks. but take this example:
you go on a sheep that emits light every 1 second
you are going in the oposite direction of the observer.
he will see that you emit light in less than 1 second. how do you explain that?

 

[peter0302]

If you mean by time "contracting" that a clock is speeding up, yes, it can, but not for the reason you think. Moving clocks in an inertial frame always run slow whether the distance between the two observers is increasing or decreasing. It's easy to see why this is because in the Lorentz factor, "v" is always squared, so any sign reflecting a negative or positive direction is negated. When an object accelerates or decelerates, however, the clock of the rest of the universe speeds up. So while, for the spacefaring twin's entire journey home, the Earth and everyone on it appeared to be aging more slowly than he was, as he decelerates the Earth ages rapidly and he arrives to see his twin old and gray.

 

[Hootenanny]

thanks. but take this example:
you go on a sheep that emits light every 1 second
you are going in the oposite direction of the observer.
he will see that you emit light in less than 1 second. how do you explain that?

Yes he will, so in other words the time between two 'ticks' of the observer's clock is greater that the time between the 'ticks' of the sheep's clock, hence time dilation.

 

[Pinto da Cost]

I understand what you are saying. But think this way. a ship emits a image of a clock every second. the observer sees the space between the images horter.
can he say time is contracting.

 

[Pinto da Cost]

I don't think that the question is closed

 

[Phy6explorer]

Time dilates!

I think the usage itself is wrong! You shouldn't say time contracts. But it is clearly time dilation with reference to special relativity where time dilation is reciprocal. Since the observer is stationary and the person in the ship emitting light is in motion it is clearly time dilation.

 

[Pinto da Cost]

even if the observer see the time between the light emited by ship shorter than any person in the ship?
I can't understand why time isn't faster. I talked to a university teacher. whatever he tells me i will post

 

[Phy6explorer]

You can't exactly say that time is faster or slower.It always just appears so to the observer in time dilation according to special theory.Time will appear to go faster for the person in contact with the frame of reference which emits the light, for the observer, that is, only the observer will feel that time is going faster for the person in the ship.

 

[Pinto da Cost]

atention: I am NOT saying that, because he sees time going slower on the outside he thinks his time is contracting. Please don't think that. he sees his time as always. he takes his clock as reference. he sees the outside going faster. as you see, the observer sees less time between the light emissions

 

[Phy6explorer]

Yes, you are absolutely right.The observer sees less time between the light emissions because the ship is moving and he is not.That is time dilation.You are right almost completely except for the part that time "contracts"! Sorry,anyway if I had offended you in any way, because all I wanted to do is to have a healthy discussion with you. Anyway, wait till you get more answers you might get a clearer idea !

 

[Pinto da Cost]

Hey man! thank you! I am portuguese, so many times i think i am not expressing myself reight. sory, i don't mean to be rude.
a question: seing time faster on the outside is dilation? what do we call then when we time on the outside slower?

 

[Phy6explorer]

Are you asking that, when we observe that time is faster it is dilation, but what it is called when time is noticed to go slower?

 

[Pinto da Cost]

I am asking the opposite. when we see that our time is larger than the outside's time, when we object in slow-motion a dilation?
thus, when we see objects in a fast.motion shouldn't we call that contraction?
(thanks)

 

[Phy6explorer]

In the special theory of relativity , time dilation is observed only by the other party, that is , it will not be observed by the person who is in the same frame of reference as the light emitter .Of course, the emitter of light must be in motion with respect to the other.

But, in the time dilation, according to the general theory of relativity, gravitational time dilation, that is, time dilation will be accepted to be uniform by all observers.

So do you get it now. Time dilation has nothing to do with observing the time to go slower or faster. To generalise, time dilation, when a person in motion notices time to go fast for the stationary person and the person stationary observes time to go slower for the person in motion, time dilation is occurring.

 

[Pinto da Cost]

hey! thank you very much. i finally understood that i had a problem with language

 

[Dale]

You can't exactly say that time is faster or slower.It always just appears so to the observer in time dilation according to special theory.

I think you have misunderstood relativity. The time dilation effects occur even after accounting for all of the "appearance" effects caused by the finite speed of light.

For example, say there is a clock moving away from you at .5c and emitting pulses every 1s in your frame, and say that it is 10 light seconds (ls) away at t=0s when it emits the first pulse. You will receive the pulse at t=10s, use the known distance and speed of light, and determine that the pulse was emitted at t=0s. The clock will emit the second pulse at t=1s, and you will receive it at t=11.5s (since the clock has moved). You will again account for the known distance and speed of light, and determine that the pulse was emitted at t=1s. This process of accounting for the travel time of light is sometimes called an "intelligent observer".

Special relativity is not about "appearances".

Now, in your example you are talking about a clock moving towards an observer. In this case, the observer will use the distance from the clock at each point in time to calculate when the clock actually emitted the light in the observer's frame. When this is done, the intelligent observer will determine that the moving clock runs slow by the time dilation factor regardless of what direction the clock is moving.

 

[jtbell]

I think you have misunderstood relativity. The time dilation effects occur even after accounting for all of the "appearance" effects caused by the finite speed of light.

To go a bit further, the "appearance" effects are described by the http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/reldop2.html" , which is different from the classical Doppler effect precisely because of time dilation.

 

[bernhard.rothenstein]

time in relativity

I am asking the opposite. when we see that our time is larger than the outside's time, when we object in slow-motion a dilation?
thus, when we see objects in a fast.motion shouldn't we call that contraction?
(thanks)

think the fact that time dilate or contract depends on the way in which cloks in the involved inertial reference frame are synchronized

 

[Pinto da Cost]

thank you. I think so too.

 

[matheinste]

Hello Pinto da Cost.

What you see is not always what is really happening.

For an observer ( call him X ) in an inertial frame his clock ticks at the same rate always. However to an observer moving relative to X then X,s clock appears to run slower even after allowing for any optical effects due to the direction of relative motion. This is always the case. So the rate of a clock in X's own frame never speeds up, or slows down, for X in his own frame but X's clock rate always appears to slow down when viewed from any other frame moving relative to X. Whether you personally would describe this slowing of the rate of ticks, normally known as time dilation, as contraction or expansion of time i do not know. But the rate of ticks never speeds up for any inertial observer.

I am, of course, talking about clock rates and not absolute times, and so synchronization is irrelevant.

Matheinste

 

[Dale]

think the fact that time dilate or contract depends on the way in which cloks in the involved inertial reference frame are synchronized

No, this is wrong. Time dilation can be detected with a single clock, so synchronization procedures do not enter in. Two simple examples are the half-life of muons in a storage ring and the relativistic doppler effect. Both of these occur using time measurements at a single point and therefore they occur irrespective of synchronization procedures.

 

[bernhard.rothenstein]

time and relativity

No, this is wrong. Time dilation can be detected with a single clock, so synchronization procedures do not enter in. Two simple examples are the half-life of muons in a storage ring and the relativistic doppler effect. Both of these occur using time measurements at a single point and therefore they occur irrespective of synchronization procedures.

thanks for your oppinion. as long we speek about time dilation
nonproper time interval=proper time intervalxgamma
the measurement of the first one involves two distant Einstein synchronized clocks whereas the measurement of the second one involves a single clock.
what I wanted to underline is that if we use a nonstandard clock synchronization procedure (say everyday clock synchronization) there are situations in which the time transformation becomes the Doppler shift formula. In that last case we can have time contraction or time dilation depending on the fact that the moving clock is approaching or receeding two poper time interfvals bein involved. I could provide references.

 

[Dale]

as long we speek about time dilation
nonproper time interval=proper time intervalxgamma
the measurement of the first one involves two distant Einstein synchronized clocks whereas the measurement of the second one involves a single clock.

No, I already gave two examples where the non-proper time interval was measured by a single clock. Synchronization procedures are irrelevant in those cases and time dilation still occurs. Therefore, synchronization does not, in general, explain time dilation.

 

[bernhard.rothenstein]

time and relativity

No, this is wrong. Time dilation can be detected with a single clock, so synchronization procedures do not enter in. Two simple examples are the half-life of muons in a storage ring and the relativistic doppler effect. Both of these occur using time measurements at a single point and therefore they occur irrespective of synchronization procedures.

As far as I know the formula which accounts for the Doppler Effect relates two proper time intervals whereas the time dilation formula relates a nonproper time interval to a proper one.
Please have a look at the Tangherlini transformations.

 

[matheinste]

Hello bernhard.rothenstein.

Perhaps my views are very naive but i understand that eiither an observer observes time in a frame moving relative to him dilate or he does not. SR says he does. So in answer to the original posters question, SR predicts time can only dilate in a frame moving relative to an observer.

There may well be arguments about how we measure and verify this prediction experimentally

Matheinste.

 

[Dale]

bernhard, you are like a musician that sits down at a full concert grand piano and plays a single note over, and over, and over, and over, ...

As far as I know the formula which accounts for the Doppler Effect relates two proper time intervals whereas the time dilation formula relates a nonproper time interval to a proper one.

The relativistic Doppler formula includes the time dilation formula (e.g. relativistic Doppler is simply classical Doppler with time dilation). So if Doppler can be detected with "two proper time intervals" then so can time dilation. Synchronization is not relevant to the OP's question and you are simply confusing someone who obviously is having trouble with understanding standard relativistic concepts.

Please have a look at the Tangherlini transformations.

I am pretty sure that time dilation is also included in the Tangherlini transformations, but I couldn't find a good reference for it in about a 7 min search.

 

[bernhard.rothenstein]

time relativity

bernhard, you are like a musician that sits down at a full concert grand piano and plays a single note over, and over, and over, and over, ...The relativistic Doppler formula includes the time dilation formula (e.g. relativistic Doppler is simply classical Doppler with time dilation). So if Doppler can be detected with "two proper time intervals" then so can time dilation. Synchronization is not relevant to the OP's question and you are simply confusing someone who obviously is having trouble with understanding standard relativistic concepts.

I am pretty sure that time dilation is also included in the Tangherlini transformations, but I couldn't find a good reference for it in about a 7 min search.

The initial question was if time can contract. What I play on my piano is that depending on the way in which the clocks of the involved inertial frames are synchronized we can have time contraction as well and no more. You do not believe that!
In order to see the Tangherlini transformations please have a look at
arXiv:physics/0407096v1 [physics.gen-ph]

 

[DrGreg]

Bernhard is technically correct in that whether time dilates or contracts, measured as rate of change of an object's proper time relative to an observer's time coordinate, does depend on how the observer's clocks are synchronised. It's possible to choose synchronisations to get any dilation or contraction you like.

But that is a technicality which doesn't really help the original question.

There are other senses in which dilation doesn't depend on synchronisation.

The famous twin-"paradox" is one example, essentially the same as the "half-life of muons in a storage ring" mentioned by DaleSpam. The transverse doppler effect, where the source moves perpendicular to its separation from the observer, is another unequivocal form of dilation that has no explanation in Newtonian physics, and does not depend on clock synchronisation.