Phy. grad. school admissions for Engg. undergrads - is it tough to get selected?

[metalrose]

Hi,

I am from India, pursuing an undergrad. course in Electronics and communication engg. from a NOT so well known university here in India.

I couldn't pursue physics major due to some reasons I'll not delve into.

I wish to apply for theoretical physics grad. program in the US.

I recently found out that some guy from India, from a mechanical engg. background, had applied to US universities, and was rejected by many for not being a physics graduate, despite having a cgpa of 8.9(on a scale of 10), decent GRE scores and stuff?

Does that sort of thing happen often?

If that's the case, how can I improve my chances of being selected in decent US universities?

 

[ZapperZ]

You might want to start by reading this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=64966

Zz.

 

[metalrose]

@ZapperZ

Thanks for that. I checked that out.

Provided I could tackle most of the old exam question papers of major universities and have a good undergrad. preparation in physics, would my engg. degree still be a major impediment to my getting into top schools, or even the not so top schools?

What I am currently worried about is not so much whether I'd be able to handle the coursework or not. That comes much later, after I get selected in a decent university.

What I would like to be assured of first is that my engg. background wouldn't be a hurdle in anyway.

Do my chances of being selected get substantially reduced as compared to a conventional students?
Also, do my high school transcripts matter?
Is there any minimum no. of physics credits you need to have in your undergrad. to be able to apply?
And what if I don't have a research experience, but a decent gpa and decent GRE scores?
What advantage/disadvantage would I have being a non US citizen, if any?

Those are the questions I need answered basically...

Would be great if you could help me with that...

Thanks

 

[ZapperZ]

You didn't provide enough info regarding your friend and his non-acceptance when he applied. For example, did he only apply to the top-tier schools, neglecting all the many other fine schools that are "brand name"? Did he indicate that his acceptance was contingent upon financial assistance from the school? Etc... etc.

There are literally hundreds of schools in the US offering graduate program in physics. One needs to do a bit of a background research on categorizing and group the schools and to apply a few from each category. I've described this in my "So You Want To Be A Physicist" essay. This is the only way to improve your chances of getting accepted.

Secondly, if you require financial support from such school, your chances of acceptance drops down considerably. Many schools will not admit international students with financial assistance. For high-powered schools such as Stanford, etc. which grants financial support to practically all incoming physics graduate students, the competition is extremely high, and they can pick and choose among the best of the best. Your chances of getting admitted to one of those schools might be very slim.

Zz.

 

[metalrose]

@ZapperZ

I don't know the guy I talked about personally. His case came up in an online discussion I was having with some guy, so I don't know the exact details.

But anyway, how do I classify 100's of Univs into three tiers.
Not being a US citizen, I may lack a great deal of knowledge about various universities.
And it's not exactly easy to rank univs by simply researching their websites.

So how do I go about it?
Due to lack of knowledge about various univs, i may run the risk of applying to lot of univs that are unlikely to accept me.

Are there any websites that could maybe rank univs?
And how many univs in all should I apply to? 5, 10, 15...how may?

Also, a very important question...can a published paper make some real difference?
And secondly, the core question, would my engg background be an impediment for my admission? or would it make negligible difference ?

thanks

 

[DrummingAtom]

Check out this link for some undergrad profiles and the schools they got accepted to:

http://www.physicsgre.com/viewforum.php?f=3

Click on the all Stickies of "Profiles." There are quite a bit from other countries that got accepted. Good luck.

 

[Vanadium 50]

First, you have to face a fact: you are not prepared for graduate work in physics. You will need to spend some time catching up before you are ready for graduate coursework - perhaps a year. This makes you less competitive than many other applicants. That doesn't mean you can't get in: but you are less competitive. It also means you are less likely to get an assistantship your first year. It's not impossible, but there are only so many of these things to go around, and like I said, you are less competitive.

 

[metalrose]

@Vanadium

Well maybe I will be underprepared, but I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen.

I'm spending most of my time on studying undergrad. physics.

I just finished my first year(2nd semester) at college, and by now I have done most of the mathematical stuff that's there in the book by Boas, I've done Newtonian mechanics from the book by Kleppner and Kolenkow,
Will be finishing off with the electrodynamics book by griffiths in the next two months of summer holidays and maybe also do a linear algebra book.

I have 3 more years left, in which I could revise all this over again, prepare for GRE as well as other standard exams, here in India, and maybe by my third year, do a couple of advanced courses like particle physics or general relativity or something.

I don't know if I'd still be under-prepared.

Even if I am, all that means is that I'd have to put in more effort in grad. school.

But if I can get great GRE scores, then that does show that I am prepared enough to take a grad. course, because that's the only way a univ can determine whether I'm prepared or not...right?

My only worry is that my engg degree might have a disadvantage since the admission officers wouldn't have any other way of determining my preparation apart from the GRE...right?

And so what I'm worried about is that I might get rejected from a lot of univs just because I don't have a physics degree, despite having a good GRE score and also maybe some research experience and good recommendations.

How to get around that?

 

[pessimist]

@Vanadium

Well maybe I will be underprepared, but I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen.

I'm spending most of my time on studying undergrad. physics.

I just finished my first year(2nd semester) at college, and by now I have done most of the mathematical stuff that's there in the book by Boas, I've done Newtonian mechanics from the book by Kleppner and Kolenkow,
Will be finishing off with the electrodynamics book by griffiths in the next two months of summer holidays and maybe also do a linear algebra book.

I have 3 more years left, in which I could revise all this over again, prepare for GRE as well as other standard exams, here in India, and maybe by my third year, do a couple of advanced courses like particle physics or general relativity or something.

I don't know if I'd still be under-prepared.

Even if I am, all that means is that I'd have to put in more effort in grad. school.

But if I can get great GRE scores, then that does show that I am prepared enough to take a grad. course, because that's the only way a univ can determine whether I'm prepared or not...right?

My only worry is that my engg degree might have a disadvantage since the admission officers wouldn't have any other way of determining my preparation apart from the GRE...right?

And so what I'm worried about is that I might get rejected from a lot of univs just because I don't have a physics degree, despite having a good GRE score and also maybe some research experience and good recommendations.

How to get around that?

From what my peers who got into Ivies tell me, you have a decent chance provided you are enrolled in one of the IIT's , NIT's or BITS. Reputation of your undergrad matters a lot. Because no matter how much you have studied on your own, you must have proof by displaying your skills in some manner such as a summer internship in some physics related field.
I myself am in one of the top science colleges in the country and I think if you have that opportunity then you are at an advantage. But if you do not, then obviously your engg degree is a big disadvantage.

 

[metalrose]

@pessimist

i tried for IIT's, BITS. I got selection in NIT- Rourkela in their M.Sc. Integrated physics course, but I didn't go for it, since many prof.s advised me against it coz they thought the program at rourkela wasn't worth it. It's not a reputable NIT as such.

Anyway, i am currently enrolled in a private University in Delhi, and it's nowhere near a big name school.

Anything else you would suggest to boost up my chances?

 

[pessimist]

I suggest taking up some project work under some teachers from DU. Also try out for summer research programmes like those by IAS, the IISER's (especially kolkata) have summer projects especially for students. JNCASR's summer programme is highly reputed as amongst the most difficult to get into. These can get you a certificate which shows that you have done some work pertaining to physics (or theoretical physics in particular.)

Try to personally contact some professors in DU. Tell them you would like to have their guidance. If you have recommendations from reputed teachers in physics, nothing better.

My cousin says that NIT rourkela has got a pretty good faculty for physics and mathematics and NIT rourkela is one of the older and reputed NITs. (Obviously not as much as warangal or surathkal).

All the best to you.

 

[pessimist]

@metalrose

High School Transcripts matter but not as much as your GPA and GRE physics scores. You would have to give the GRE Physics examination anyway as you do not have all physics courses i assume.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you have 3 years remaining, and want to go to physics graduate school, you should change your major to physics.

 

[metalrose]

@vanadium

The institute I am in is an "Institute of Information Technology"(yeah!) so doesn't offer a physics major. The closest it has anything to physics is Electronics and comm. engg. which is exactly what I'm pursuing.

And there is no way I can drop a year and take admission in another university or anything of that sort.
Things aren't that simple here in India. So I really cannot get into a physics course in any possible way now.

All I can do is take up a few electives in material science that my Inst. offers in senior year. That's as close as I can get to physics officially.

Apart from that, some prof.s here are involved in Quantum info. and stuff, so that's what I may end up getting research experience in eventually...

 

[metalrose]

@pessimist

Thanks for the info. By the way, are you currently in India or abroad? could I talk to you over mail? My mail id is : metalrose_03@yahoo.co.in

Give me a blank mail if you can correspond over mail.

Anyway,
I won't be able to apply for summer program this summer as I want to spend it actually learning physics as m knowledge as of now is very limited.
I'd like to take this year to more or less finish off the main chunks of undergrad. physics so that I'm in a position to undertake research or summer prog.s

Secondly, next summer, my Inst. will have me undergo an internship at some company. This is compulsory. So my next summer is going down the drain.

I only have one last summer left after that, i.e. summer when I enter 4th year.
By that I would be busy with GRE preparations and applications and stuff.
How would I be able to undertake a summer prog.?

Do they offer "summer" prog.s at any other time of the year too?

And is it really tough to make it into summer prog.s of places like IISER, IISC, HRI...etc...
considering that they are the only and the best schools for science?

 

[pessimist]

@metalrose

I am currently in India. I have completed two semesters(first year) of education. Getting into a summer programme isn't really "very" difficult. Its competitive. But if you were selected for the national olympiads or any other such activity, then it becomes easier as was the case for me.

What Vanadium suggests is a good idea if you have just completed a year of engineering. There are some very good institutions in India itself that offer excellent education in physics. St. Stephens in your own backyard is an example. CMI is an excellent institute that gives a bachelor in theoretical physics.

 

[pessimist]

As for timing of these programs, well you will have to prioritize. Also, I think publishing a paper in the field of physics will help.

 

[metalrose]

@pessimist

Your the one who gave me the mail with subject as "blank mail"?? it somehow landed up in my spam folder...

Anyway,
The thing is, I took a drop year after high school so as to prepare for IIT's and all.
Didn't get through. Didn't have good enough marks in CBSE 12th so as to get good DU colleges.
Colleges like St. Stephens are too distant a thing. They require something like above 93 or 95...or maybe even more than that.

i could barely manage early 80's.
Anyway, I didn't join DU due to many reasons that I won't get into right now.

I have now completed my first year in engg. Am 20 yrs old. Some of school friends are going to pass outta college next year.
My starting it, all over again at this stage would be a preposterous idea.

By the way, you said your done with your 2nd sem. 2nd sem of undergrad. or M.Sc.?

And which university/college?

 

[metalrose]

@pessimist

As for the summer prog.s,

Does admission depend heavily on past achievements like olympiads, as you suggested?
I have no such past acheivements

So would a decent gpa be enough? will reccomendations be required?

Also, my biggest worry is that I don't have a "summer" availible for these "summer" progs...
As I wrote in my earlier post, the next summer would be eaten up by a compulsory internship I'd have to undergo at some company...
the next one to that would be the last one before grad school, and that would be taken up by GRE prep, TOEFL etc...

So are there any progs that are not necessarily held in summers?

 

[pessimist]

@metalrose...
yes blank message would be me. I completed 2nd Sem of Undergrad. Amongst Top 5 Science colleges in India. Well in the condition you are in, I suggest you continue with your engineering degree itself then. I am currently unaware of any programme not held in the summers. Some summer programmes especially the ones in IISER ask you to send a personalised email regarding your interests and willingness to work under said people.

I know of a friend with lowly 80s who got into a math summer programme. So you might have a chance. Also there is VSRP a programme held by TIFR that is around september I think. That is the only one I know of. You could google up for this stuff.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you want to major in physics, and your school doesn't offer that as a major, you should transfer to one that does.