Saving Ash from a Volcanic Eruption: A Geologist's Perspective

[BobG]

I never realized Iceland was such a picturesque place. I think that's my new dream vacation destination.

[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Gullfoss-Iceland-20050724.jpg/800px-Gullfoss-Iceland-20050724.jpg Gullfoss

[URL]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Skogafoss_from_below.JPG/800px-Skogafoss_from_below.JPG[/URL] Skógafoss

[URL]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Iceland_Dettifoss_1972-4.jpg/434px-Iceland_Dettifoss_1972-4.jpg[/URL] Dettifoss

 

[cristo]

Rubbish. I was supposed to be going to Ireland for the weekend. Booo!

Surely you can get to Ireland without flying!

 

[Frame Dragger]

@BobG: I had no idea either, but apparently that's where the Lord of The Rings movies were filmed. That would explain the vistas, but not why the movies were unwatchable.

Anyway, like California, isn't there always a big catch to that kind of natural beauty? :yikes:

 

[mgb_phys]

@BobG: I had no idea either, but apparently that's where the Lord of The Rings movies were filmed.

No, that was New Zealand

Anyway, like California, isn't there always a big catch to that kind of natural beauty? :yikes:

In Iceland? - occasional volcanoes and the ever present danger of Bjork encounters.

in New Zealand - no volcanoes and even the sheep are pretty tame.

 

[Frame Dragger]

No, that was New Zealand


In Iceland? - occasional volcanoes and the ever present danger of Bjork encounters.

in New Zealand - no volcanoes and even the sheep are pretty tame.

Oooooohhhh... heh.. no offense... well... a lot of people! Right, New Zealand = tastey lamb and people who will hang you by your ankles if you compare them to flightless birds. Iceland = "Uh.. didn't you know, that uh, Iceland is GREEN, and uh, Greenland ICEY. SHAZAM!" from a 15 year old.

Bjork... she's... interesting, in a "run you poor swan, RUN!" and "DON'T SAY 'Welcome To Bangkok!'" way. On the upside she's... ah... scary?

EDIT: Oh, and mgb... why are the sheep tame? What have you been doing to the poor... lambs?! "Tame" or "Tramatized"?

 

[zoobyshoe]

in New Zealand - no volcanoes and even the sheep are pretty tame.

You could be pecked by a kiwi, though.

 

[Frame Dragger]

You could be pecked by a kiwi, though.

Too true mate, too true, still, better than steppin' on an inland Taipan, am I right?! *sound of unamused crickets*... right?!

Ehhh...

 

[Borek]

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=395467

 

[Frame Dragger]

I would just add that flying low = GAS GUZZLER.

 

[Frame Dragger]

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=395467

Oh... can a mentor merge the threads?

 

[lisab]

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=395467

:rofl: Clicking that now brings you...here. It's like walking through a door into the room you just left. Took me a minute to get my bearings and figure out what happened.

 

[mgb_phys]

EDIT: Oh, and mgb... why are the sheep tame? What have you been doing to the poor... lambs?! "Tame" or "Tramatized"?

Well compared to the island next door, where even the sheep are venomous.

Oh, New Zealand does have a few volcanoes but they are relatively polite and well behaved.
Cute note at the bottom of the NZ geological survey's web page
They have a link for questions, but note that "The Institute cannot determine exactly when the next eruption will occur"

 

[Count Iblis]

Can propellor planes fly safely throught the ash?

 

[mgb_phys]

Can propellor planes fly safely throught the ash?

Most large propeller planes are turbo-props so have exactly the same engine as 'jets'.
However the ash is mostly at 20-30,000 ft so it's perfectly safe for anything to fly under it, small planes, turboprops, jets and helicopters.
But it's risky if you have to climb or descend through the cloud, or if the cloud moves - and you don't want to be the one explaining to the lawyers of a 747 full of victims why you ok'ed it.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Well compared to the island next door, where even the sheep are venomous.
Oh, New Zealand does have a few volcanoes but they are relatively polite and well behaved.
Cute note at the bottom of the NZ geological survey's web page
They have a link for questions, but note that "The Institute cannot determine exactly when the next eruption will occur"

I KNOW! Evolution took a really nasty turn when even the damned PLATYPUS (male) is venemous! For god's sake, the Aussies have a tick that can paralyze and kill you. A TICK. That makes Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, and Lyme sound like a cool breeze!

 

[Frame Dragger]

Most large propeller planes are turbo-props so have exactly the same engine as 'jets'.
However the ash is mostly at 20-30,000 ft so it's perfectly safe for anything to fly under it, small planes, turboprops, jets and helicopters.
But it's risky if you have to climb or descend through the cloud, or if the cloud moves - and you don't want to be the one explaining to the lawyers of a 747 full of victims why you ok'ed it.

Yeah, a glass shell on your engine is really a pretty dire scenario, given the glide ratio of a 747 being somewhere between a brick and a brick with wings.

 

[mgb_phys]

given the glide ratio of a 747 being somewhere between a brick and a brick with wings.

The glide ratio of a 747 is 1:15 -so giving you about a 100mi glide from cruise altitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_flight_9)

Better than helicopters which seem to turn into wood chippers at the slightest provocation.

 

[brewnog]

Surely you can get to Ireland without flying!

I could have got a ferry but that would have cost a shedload and involved another shedload of driving. Gone to Yorkshire instead, much better!

 

[Frame Dragger]

The glide ratio of a 747 is 1:15 -so giving you about a 100mi glide from cruise altitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_flight_9)

Better than helicopters which seem to turn into wood chippers at the slightest provocation.

A joke mgb... that was a joke. I for one would rather strap a rocket to my *** and pray for divine guidance than go into a helo, no arguments here.

 

[Borek]

I have just seen sunset - red, but not unusually red. I was driving home, got here about 5 minutes too late to take pictures.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I have just seen sunset - red, but not unusually red. I was driving home, got here about 5 minutes too late to take pictures.

Well, it sounds as though this ash and other particulates will be airborne for days... I'd say you'll get some more chances, and it may look more spectacular once the particles settle a bit into the lower atmosphere and mix with water.

 

[mheslep]

...
I wonder - do we know of a plot of number of volcanic eruptions and amount of ash ejected in the past? Yes, I am thinking about the subject that we can't discuss. Was the average amount of ash flying in the last 50 years different from the average? I don't want to start a discussion, but if someone can fill my curiosity, that'll be great.

For comparison, material ejected:

Recent:
Mount St Helens: 1.2 km^3
Pinatubo: 10 km^3

Past epics:
Yellowstone Caldera: 1000 km^3
Toba, Indonesia: 2800 km^3
La Garita Caldera: 5000 km^3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinatubo

 

[Frame Dragger]

For comparison, material ejected:

Recent:
Mount St Helens: 1.2 km^3
Pinatubo: 10 km^3

Past epics:
Yellowstone Caldera: 1000 km^3
Toba, Indonesia: 2800 km^3
La Garita Caldera: 5000 km^3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinatubo

Yellowstone... that's the one that probably reduced the effective human pop of the world to less than 20K (EDIT: About 80K years ago that is), right? Ahhh, thanks, I have my nightmare all lined up for tonight now!

That said... damn.

 

[Andre]

The biggest recent event was Mt Tambora in 1815, 160 km³.

 

[Frame Dragger]

The biggest recent event was Mt Tambora in 1815, 160 km³.

Well, I imagine that scared the living daylights out of pretty much EVERYONE... and more than 70,000 dead... that is absurdly nasty.

 

[mheslep]

Yellowstone... that's the one that probably reduced the effective human pop of the world to less than 20K (EDIT: About 80K years ago that is), right? ...

640,000 ya. No Homo sapiens in N. American then, or anywhere else. Early Neanderthals may have seen the funky sunsets in Africa.

 

[Borek]

About ash amount plot:

The biggest recent event was Mt Tambora in 1815, 160 km³.

I am not thinking about single events, I am thinking about average. There is no doubt that ash in the air is an important climate changing factor and I wonder how this factor evolved in time. Sure there will be a spike after huge eruptions so they are important, but they don't tell everything.

About sunset:

Well, it sounds as though this ash and other particulates will be airborne for days... I'd say you'll get some more chances, and it may look more spectacular once the particles settle a bit into the lower atmosphere and mix with water.

Thay said in Polish TV that the amount of ash over Poland is at peak at the moment and weather (wind/air circulation) simulations suggest it should go down in the next few days. Could be you are right about visible effect beinbg more prominent later, no idea.

 

[mheslep]

About ash amount plot:



I am not thinking about single events, I am thinking about average. There is no doubt that ash in the air is an important climate changing factor

I think the ash itself has a very short lived impact on weather. The aerosols, especially SOx, have longer term impacts (couple years) as I understand it.

 

[Andre]

I am not thinking about single events, I am thinking about average. There is no doubt that ash in the air is an important climate changing factor and I wonder how this factor evolved in time. Sure there will be a spike after huge eruptions so they are important, but they don't tell everything.

There would be a lot to tell about, given ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.txt but that has to wait until these dark ages are over.

 

[Andre]

This was our volcanic ash sunset. Edit: more in this thread

I was not too impressed but the slight haze could have been caused by the volcanic ash

 

[Frame Dragger]

There would be a lot to tell about, given ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.txt but that has to wait until these dark ages are over.

"The King is dead, long live the King!" Eh? I don't think our age gets lighter from here on... :sad:

Beautiful picture however, whatever the cause.

 

[Galteeth]

Many news reports have been talking about the risk of Katla erupting. How much of a risk/concern is this?

 

[Frame Dragger]

Many news reports have been talking about the risk of Katla erupting. How much of a risk/concern is this?

It's certainly due for an eruption, but I don't know that it means it will soon. This seems to be on the HuffingtonPost, which may be a lot of things, but not a really great source for science. There is no seismological data or gas emissions to indicate increased activity.

Then again, it's either right on time for an eruption, or about 50 years OVERdue. In essence, it's a safe bet for a reporter and a story that will reach print.

 

[ViewsofMars]

Hi everyone. I just wanted to briefly share with PF's audience two recently published pamphlets by The International Volcanic Health Hazard Network . "They are now avaiable in English, Japanese, French Spanish, Portuguese and Swahili with Italian versions being available shortly."
http://www.ivhhn.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=61

Please note that following at the bottem of the pamplet:
"Document was written by Dr Claire Horwell of the University of Cambridge, UK, with assistance from staff of the United States Geological Survey and GNS Science, New Zealand. The IVHHN is grateful to the Leverhulme Trust, UK, for funding associated meetings, and to the following people for reviewing this guideline document:
- Dr Bob Maynard, Department of Health, London, UK;
- Steve Brantley, USGS Hawaiian Volcano Observatory, Hawai'i, USA;
- Dr David Johnston, GNS Science, Lower Hutt, New Zealand;
- Dr Peter Baxter, Institute of Public Health, University of Cambridge, UK;
- Dr Carol Stewart, Wellington, New Zealand.
- Scott Barnard, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand"

Here are the two pamphlets in English:

1.

GUIDELINES ON PREPAREDNESS BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER AN ASHFALL
This document has been prepared by the International Volcanic Health Hazard Network
(IVHHN), Cities and Volcanoes Commission, GNS Science and the United States
Geological Survey (USGS) to promote the safety of those who experience volcanic
ashfall.

It details procedures to follow if warning of a volcanic ashfall is given, recommends
what to do during ashfall, and what methods are most effective for cleaning up
volcanic ash after the event.
[Please read on . . .]
http://www.ivhhn.org/images/pamphlets/Preparedness_Guidelines_English_WEB.pdf

2.

THE HEALTH HAZARDS OF VOLCANIC ASH
A guide for the public
This document has been prepared by the International Volcanic Health Hazard Network
(IVHHN), Cities and Volcanoes Commission, GNS Science and the United States Geological
Survey (USGS) to promote the safety of those who
experience volcanic ashfall.

This guide explains the potential health effects of volcanic ash and gives details on how to
protect yourself and your family in the event of a volcanic ashfall.
[Please read on . . .]
http://www.ivhhn.org/images/pamphlets/Health_Guidelines_English_WEB.pdf

A few news articles about the most recent Iceland volcanic erruption that is having a major effect for those who live in Europe. My sincerest and warmest wishes for "better weather" in the near future to those who are affected and take good care of yourself and loved ones.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8624748.stm
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/icelands_disruptive_volcano.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8626765.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/17/volcano-disruption-flights-grounded-ash
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/iceland-volcano-plume.html
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/ne...cano-ash-set-to-fall-on-Ireland-91151034.html

 

[tiny-tim]

can't planes fly lower?

Why can't planes fly lower ?

(years ago, a plane flew through an ash cloud, all its engines stopped, it plummeted thousands of feet, and the engines restarted when it reached clear air again)