Report: Kids less likely to graduate than parents

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081023/ap_on_go_ot/high_school_dropouts

WASHINGTON – Your child is less likely to graduate from high school than you were, and most states are doing little to hold schools accountable, according to a study by a children's advocacy group.

More than half the states have graduation goals that don't make schools get better, the Education Trust says in a report released Thursday.

And dropout rates haven't budged: One in four kids is dropping out of high school.

"The U.S. is stagnating while other industrialized countries are surpassing us," said Anna Habash, author of the report by Education Trust, which advocates on behalf of minority and poor children. "And that is going to have a dramatic impact on our ability to compete," she said.

In fact, the United States is now the only industrialized country where young people are less likely than their parents to earn a diploma, the report said.

High schools are required to meet graduation targets every year as part of the 2002 federal No Child Left Behind law.

But those targets are set by states, not by the federal government. And most states allow schools to graduate low percentages of students by saying that any progress, or even the status quo in some cases, is acceptable.
. . . .

What do we need to do?

 

[razored]

I honestly don't think its a flaw in the education system... but rather in the kids. If a kid wants to learn, he will learn; if not, well, everybody wants a McDonalds every two blocks.

Parents are to blame as well.

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, I would seriously look at the parental involvement in this as well. The school can only help the kids who walk through the front doors in the morning. If the parents let them skip school and don't drag them back in, then there's very little the schools can do about it.

 

[mgb_phys]

What do we need to do?

Lower the requirements to graduate?

 

[montoyas7940]

We could give government school systems a monopoly protected by law. And then make it nearly impossible to fire incompetent teachers. We should then follow up by bloating the administration at all levels.

There are so many more...

 

[jhicks]

When our parents went to HS there were 20 million less mexicans though. Most of those families are dirt poor and poor children in general don't have a great opinion of school. Perhaps a more appropriate metric would be to look at graduation rates within ethnic groups, which the article does not touch on directly, instead it merely talks about graduation rates in some states and doesn't compare them to the past. I'm not saying the article is wrong but I wasn't convinced by it.

 

[mgb_phys]

There are so many more...

You forgot continual testing - you must spend more time testing than teaching.

 

[montoyas7940]

You forgot continual testing - you must spend more time testing than teaching.

YESSSSS!

A very important one.

Thank you.

 

[buffordboy23]

I was a seventh grade science teacher for three years before deciding that the profession would not satisfy me for the next 30 years of my life, so I chose to pursue astrophysics. I learned through many of discussions with experienced teachers that they had to dumb down the course content over the years, especially within the last five or so years, because the students were becoming dumber and dumber, kinda like the movie--you may not believe some of the crazy stories I have. With my little experience in the field, I really saw this decline that these teachers spoke of with my honors level students; their will to learn and abilities overall diminished from year to year.

Personally, I think school is a reflection of society. In my own opinion, I see our society declining in many regards, and I think this is the fundamental part of the problem. Many students have single parents, so the child's education can be put on the back-burner in regards to the family's immediate needs. This is likely true for students who live with both parents as well. Often both parents must work to support the family; this wasn't true many years ago. I think our values as a society declined as well, and our children are affected in this regard too. Believe or not, many of the parents I dealt with were just big children; no wonder their kids are they way they are.

What do we need to do?

Simple question, but tough answer. I think many school districts already spend $8000-10000 dollars per student each year. Throwing more money into education is not the answer in my opinion. No Child Left Behind (NCLB) has the right idea of making schools accountable, but it is seriously flawed. For example, in my state, the bar of success raises each year, and by the year 2014, 100% of students must be at their grade level or above, even special education students. Does anyone know of any job profession that operates at a 100% efficiency? I don't. Moreover, yearly requirements cause schools to pursue the "hot" new teaching methods "proven" to work and enact district wide. As a result, the school district will throw lots of tax-payer dollars into training a core group of teachers, who are then expected to train everyone else so that they can raise test scores the following year. The whole process is rushed and inefficient as a whole from what I have witnessed, and as a result not very effective.

I think improvement in education will come with an improvement in society, but unfortunately I am not very optimistic in this regard. I think we can see improvements by holding schools accountable, but in a manner different from NCLB. Don't test every student every year. Instead, test some grade levels every five years. This provides what I think is a necessary time-frame for schools to reorganize the curriculum, train their teachers, etc. in a calculated and efficient manner. I think expecting results too quickly is detrimental to improving education.

 

[Moonbear]

I learned through many of discussions with experienced teachers that they had to dumb down the course content over the years, especially within the last five or so years, because the students were becoming dumber and dumber, kinda like the movie--you may not believe some of the crazy stories I have. With my little experience in the field, I really saw this decline that these teachers spoke of with my honors level students; their will to learn and abilities overall diminished from year to year.

When I see something like this, I think the problem is with the teacher. I think there is a human tendency to do "just enough" to get by, which means wherever you set the bar, students are going to fall a bit short of it. Of course there is always the one or two amazingly motivated students who will sail past the bar no matter how high it is set as well too, and I certainly don't like shortchanging them of the greater opportunities they could have (or of boring them to death in a class that is too easy).

I see this with the course I'm teaching now (I was hired and given this assignment too late this year to have any say on the syllabus, textbook or content covered, so am just doing what I can with what I've been handed). The previous instructors have caved in year after year to what they perceived as students who just couldn't pass and kept pulling out material. And this year they aren't doing very well either. But, now that I'm lecturing and getting to ask the students questions and pick their brains, as well as from just chatting with them while they are in the labs, I don't think the problem is they aren't smart enough to handle the material, I think the problem is that the other instructor EXPECTS them not to be smart enough to handle the material. They've lost confidence in their abilities, and haven't been taking the class seriously because they're bored.

They've been given a list of structures that they are tested on... as I was setting up the last couple exams, I was getting very frustrated using that list, because important structures that I wanted to tag weren't on it. I commented to the other instructor that I couldn't believe it wasn't on the list, how can someone be a nurse without knowing it?! Her response to me is that the previous instructor (the one who died and left us his course) had been pulling out more and more content because they weren't doing very well in the course, and she hadn't gotten all the lists updated yet. Aaargh!

So, I'll find out soon. The bar is being raised for the second half of the course now that I'm lecturing, and if they can meet it, we'll know. I think the "bar" analogy is a good one. I think you can set it so low that the students trip over it and fall on their faces rather than duck just under it or leaping over it.

Another thing I hear over and again is that students learn differently now than they did when we were in school. I have not been convinced this is true. I think it's a myth that gets spread around without scientific basis...or at least I have yet to see a study that shows evidence of these differences. I find it really hard to believe, perhaps coming from the perspective of many years of studying neuroscience topics, learning is a biological function; I don't think that's changing in a generation. Maybe something about their early education is selecting for students with a different set of learning styles to be successful at the expense of those who used to be successful, but I don't think that fundamentally people learn differently now than they did a generation ago.

Again, I suspect that could be part of the problem. If learning styles are fundamentally the same as they always have been, and instructors are being told they are now different and adapting their teaching styles based on this, maybe we're not teaching as well as we used to, no matter how good our intentions are.

Another example of "students are different today" that I hear are people complaining they don't like to read their books. When I was in school, students didn't like to read their books then either. Can anyone here say they genuinely enjoyed reading their textbooks? I never did. I enjoyed the knowledge gained, the understanding, the material covered, but sitting down and reading a dry textbook? Definitely not something enjoyable, especially when you had 4 others you had to read and were doing it on very little sleep.

Again, in the course I'm teaching, the textbook that was chosen was chosen because it has more pictures and less text, because "students don't like to read." Well, that just makes the textbook useless in my opinion and reinforces that they don't need to read it. I cover more in my lecture than the textbook includes. Why should they read the textbook? It's not as if there's a better explanation in the book than I gave in lecture, because the book has virtually no explanation, just pictures that aren't as good as the illustrations I used in my lecture. I'd rather use a textbook that goes into a bit too much depth, and ensure they have a quality reference should they need it again in the future. So what if they don't read all of it? At least if they are curious about something in lecture or don't understand it, there would be a solid and more detailed explanation in the text they could use.

Why should kids stay in school if their teachers have given up on their ability to learn and don't even try to provide resources for them to stretch their minds?

I hear a lot of things from older faculty about students today...not as serious, don't study as hard, don't read, don't care about lecture... I look out at my class, and I see students who are still all the same as when I was a student. I think people just forget how young and immature they were once (because of course when you're that young and immature, you don't really realize you are).

I think another problem at the university level (not at the elementary level) is student evaluations of teaching, and the fact this is used as a basis for things like promotion. Let's face it, if you're hard on the students, they will not evaluate you as highly as someone whose course is a fun cakewalk. However, when you think back years later to which courses really helped you out most in your career or which ones you still remember what was taught in it, those were the ones with the hard as nails professors who gave the hardest exams and most work and who you really hated at the time.

 

[mgb_phys]

You could copy the British success story.
Huge amounts of testing from age 5, modular courses to allow the teachers to pick the parts that 'most interest the students', course grades based on homework with no checking who did it and publish all grades so there is intense competition between schools.
This is so successful that exam grades have been rising so fast that they have to split the A grade into 5 sub grades because everybody scores an A.

Although you do have to be carefull to stop whatever it is that happens to these uber genii over the summer that turns them into first year undergrads that have never heard of calculus and cannot rearrange an equation.

 

[Moonbear]

Although you do have to be carefull to stop whatever it is that happens to these uber genii over the summer that turns them into first year undergrads that have never heard of calculus and cannot rearrange an equation.

:rofl:

 

[buffordboy23]

When I see something like this, I think the problem is with the teacher. I think there is a human tendency to do "just enough" to get by, which means wherever you set the bar, students are going to fall a bit short of it. Of course there is always the one or two amazingly motivated students who will sail past the bar no matter how high it is set as well too, and I certainly don't like shortchanging them of the greater opportunities they could have (or of boring them to death in a class that is too easy).

The teachers I was thinking of and referring to were on my team, so I know them very well. I can assure you that these teachers aren't at fault for the decline of their students' academic achievement due to the dumbing down of the content--many of these teachers received numerous accolades from parents by helping their children succeed in ways that they never have before. Many of these same teachers report a significant decline in the students' overall behavior as well over the years, which could be due to the decline in family structure of a typical U.S. family. Perhaps, other teachers of these students during previous years contributed to the end result of these teachers dumbing down the content. With one out of two teachers leaving the profession within less than five years, inexperienced teachers can often, though not intentionally, negatively affect a child's education, especially during primary school when foundational concepts are to be acquired for advanced learning in secondary school. I think the high turnover rate of our teachers plays an important role in the current state of our education system. So I do agree with you that teacher's can definitely be at fault, whether it is intentionally or unintentionally.

Another problem I see and didn't mention earlier is the poor resources available to science teachers to use in their classrooms. The standard middle-school science textbook is of poor quality. The AAAS performed an analysis of science textbooks as part of their Project 2061 and determined that many of the textbooks are of poor quality:
http://www.project2061.org/publications/textbook/mgsci/report/mgbooks.htm
I have to agree with their results concerning the textbooks that I used in my classroom. During my first year as a teacher, the textbook was, unfortunately, the backbone of my course due to many time constraints, and I soon saw how horrible it was. It and the accompanying worksheets mainly focused on science vocabulary, not learning actual scientific ideas. A lot of the worksheets did not make the students think, but rather made them hunt for answers to a fill in a blank here and one there. The children were mice looking for a piece of cheese. When they would ask questions, they would not ask scientific questions, but would ask where they can find this vocabulary term. My second, and especially, the third year of teaching went much better because I was able to do all of my own research and create custom-made lessons and activities with little available resources and add the right structure to permit the students to achieve authentic scientific goals--the textbook was used sparingly and only when most beneficial. Moreover, all of the actual work done during a typical class period was done by the students, not me, like during my first year--my day really became a breeze and I left at the end of the day still full of energy although there still was much work to do (the most important point was that the students were succeeding and doing it all themselves). Nevertheless, although I changed my behavior as a teacher I still saw many other teachers rely on the textbook as the basis of their course. It's hard for me to severely criticize them for doing so, because it takes a lot of sacrifice on the part of the teacher with an already heavy workload to make such adjustments. When it comes down to it, quality resources for science aren't readily available, but they are slowly becoming available--good kits that focus on science inquiry are being marketed by a few companies. During my last year as a teacher, I had the opportunity to write curriculum and adopt new science learning materials--unfortunately, the textbooks of poor quality dominated over the adoption of science kits due to budget constraints and the typical life-span of the materials.

 

[Andy Resnick]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081023/ap_on_go_ot/high_school_dropouts
What do we need to do?

First, don't panic. I have not seen the study and so cannot accept the conclusions at face value. I have 2 kids in the public school system and have been very pleased with the quality of instruction they have been receiving. So whatever the study claims, it is not a universal truth.

Second, I think the underlying issue with education has not been properly addressed- the underlying issue is simply "what is the value of being educated"? Forget the airy-fairy utopian ideal of having a well-educated populace (that's a straw argument); why should someone go into debt to pay for an education (either tuition or via property taxes) that doesn't proportionally increase that person's standard of living? Be practical- why would you insist that very person have (for example) a high-school diploma? What is the practical value of that piece of paper?

Like it or not, two neighboring kids, one from a family that pays $19k in property taxes every year to go to a 'good school system' and one that pays $5k in property taxes will not *a priori* have markedly different career prospects. And why would childless families who no longer have kids in the public schools be willing to pay since the "schools are failing". This situation is simply more stark when the student is paying the education costs out-of-pocket.

Europe has had a multi-tier education system for a long time- some students are selected out for vocational training early, while some are steered towards university. This is an explicit acknowledgment of a class/caste system, but the reality is that one exists in the US already.

Last, claims that that US is 'losing the race' to other countries; maybe that's true, maybe not. Again, the reality is that we live in a very fluid environment- the entire globe is in play, not just a few rich countries. There's a lot of uncertainty and also a lot of opportunity.

 

[Moonbear]

T
Another problem I see and didn't mention earlier is the poor resources available to science teachers to use in their classrooms. The standard middle-school science textbook is of poor quality. The AAAS performed an analysis of science textbooks as part of their Project 2061 and determined that many of the textbooks are of poor quality:
http://www.project2061.org/publications/textbook/mgsci/report/mgbooks.htm

I think there may be many underlying reasons for this problem. The biggest one is likely that teachers often don't have an adequate science education themselves, so don't know the subject enough to not use the crutch of the textbook. I certainly have no recollection of my middle school science books. I'm not sure we spent much time reading them. I've even encountered this problem at the college level. For the lecture I gave today, about half the material did not come from the textbook; I had to tell the students to basically ignore some sections of the text because it's so oversimplified as to be wrong. And, then I had to spend a LOT of time creating new illustrations for my lecture, because NONE of the books I have on my shelf had one that showed what I wanted to show.

Though, there are always other opportunities too. For example, we just had a high school class come visit our anatomy labs yesterday. These were all students with an interest in some sort of health profession after they graduate...anything from paramedic to med school some day. We gave them a mini-anatomy lesson, and it was a lot of fun to do for us and them. So, not sure what to teach on a subject and the book isn't helpful, call up the local university and find out if there's someone there who is willing to do an outreach program of some sort, either to come to your classroom or for your classroom to come to them. It took me five minutes to throw together a 20-min lesson for these students at an age-appropriate level. When the teacher was on the way out, I mentioned to her that we should do this sort of thing for more classes and to have some of the other teachers contact us. I'd be equally happy to go visit the schools as have them come to us.

Of course, this is something we can also use this forum for. I'd love to see middle or high school teachers in here saying, "I have to give a lesson on this topic, and our book is terrible, but I'm not sure what else I can include to present this more clearly, can anyone else suggest some ideas or resources that will help?"

 

[mbisCool]

From my experience by the time students get to high school about 90 percent are apathetic about their education. The same small portion of the school will be in all the advanced or ap classes with the exception of a few, not merely everyone studying their subject of interest. The rest don't care or don't have educational interests. It amazes me how many students with their 4.0 gpa's or close to it have difficulty spelling their own name because they took 2 TA classes, home ec, and like office assistant...

I am not sure what exactly leads to educational apathy. I'm sure it has a lot of contributers, but too many students don't seem to care.

The students who have very little educational oportunity but are eager to learn manage to learn inspite of any obstacle. The minority who excell are generally passionate about learning. If that passion was evident in more students i don't believe we would have this decline in education.

 

[Feldoh]

Off the top of my head, tenure is a major problem in it's current state for public schools. You get an excess of mediocre/poor teachers that quite frankly are uninspiring to students. It's also the parents faults for not striking interest in learning for children it seems.

As mbisCool stated, it seems like maybe the 10% of students are in all honors/advanced classes, while the rest just waste approximately 7-8 hours of their day. The dumb part is is that it's partly the teachers fault. I remember in high school the teachers who taught advanced classes were usually the good interesting, and inspiring teachers while the rest were mediocre at best.

 

[phyzmatix]

There's an awful lot to read here, so be assured that I didn't and forgive me if I say something already mentioned.

I can't help but think of the saying: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

I think society's attitude towards teaching is geared wrong. Education of those still up and coming should be taken a lot more seriously than it is, i.e. all efforts must be made to ensure that the teachers are of the highest standard.

I'm not going to Google the stats, but teaching is notoriously underpaid. How about creating an incentive to draw better-qualified people to the industry (or even just greater interest) by upping the wages somewhat?

Of course, there's also the arguments for parental input etc etc, but those things, in my opinion, are a lot more difficult to control or influence than creating a better teaching environment both for the students as well as the teachers.

 

[Tobias Funke]

I teach high school math and I'm starting to think that mathematical ability is like language- if it's not developed early, it never will (I have no evidence for this, just my thoughts). I don't know what these kids are doing in middle school, but they come here not knowing how to do arithmetic with fractions or even negative numbers in some cases. They slowly improve, but only by parroting what I do at the board. They don't know how to check their answers and even after I show them numerous times, still ask me "Is this answer right"? I explained the difference between the inequalities |x|< 2 and |x|> 2 about 10 times at the board, both geometrically in terms of a number line (I still can't figure out how this didn't stick) and even algebraically. The majority of kids still failed their test.

I'm not necessarily blaming the kids, but we're failing them at some point in their math educations (probably by NOT failing them when they deserve it). I see the point of both sides here. If we go easy on them, of course they'll do worse, but how is a teacher supposed to teach algebra to a student who can't do -5-2?

 

[Moonbear]

I think society's attitude towards teaching is geared wrong. Education of those still up and coming should be taken a lot more seriously than it is, i.e. all efforts must be made to ensure that the teachers are of the highest standard.

I'm not going to Google the stats, but teaching is notoriously underpaid. How about creating an incentive to draw better-qualified people to the industry (or even just greater interest) by upping the wages somewhat?

While it certainly isn't the case every time...there are very talented teachers in the schools...I agree that there aren't enough of them.

I think part of the problem is that people are reluctant to pay all those tenured, mediocre teachers more while raising starting salaries for those who are better teachers, but the unions get in the way and expect that if you raise starting salaries, you have to raise all salaries.

 

[mgb_phys]

I'm not going to Google the stats, but teaching is notoriously underpaid.

Not in the UK it isn't - the problem is that there is no link between performance and pay.
You are are hired and then as long as you remember not to have sex with one of the kids you have the job for life, it is impossible to get rid of a bad teacher. Your pay rises automatically with seniority and promotion is based on who has been at the school the longest.

The only real performance goals come when you want to make head - then there is competition against 'super-heads' hired straight from industry for their management experience.

 

[Moonbear]

I teach high school math and I'm starting to think that mathematical ability is like language- if it's not developed early, it never will (I have no evidence for this, just my thoughts).

I think there are studies I've seen that reflect this, but I can't remember where, so could be misremembering. I'm pretty sure I've at least seen it in terms of girls/women being retained in math and sciences, that you need to get them hooked very young and retain them through middle school.

I don't know what these kids are doing in middle school, but they come here not knowing how to do arithmetic with fractions or even negative numbers in some cases.

Fractions have always been a hang-up for kids in math. I have never understood why, but even when I was in school, there were students in my grade who would just always get stuck on fractions. Not understanding negative numbers would explain why so many end up with overdrawn bank accounts as adults.

They slowly improve, but only by parroting what I do at the board. They don't know how to check their answers and even after I show them numerous times, still ask me "Is this answer right"? I explained the difference between the inequalities |x|< 2 and |x|> 2 about 10 times at the board, both geometrically in terms of a number line (I still can't figure out how this didn't stick) and even algebraically. The majority of kids still failed their test.

By the time they reach high school, if the foundations haven't been correctly set for them, they can be their own obstacle to learning too...the "I hate math and don't care so won't try" attitude really gets in the way at that age. I wonder what can be done as an intervention at that age to get them back on track.

Although, I suspect some of it may be their developmental level. Remember, you're dealing with a classroom full of kids at all very different stages of brain development/maturity...I'm not talking about developmental disabilities, but the normal range of development in the peri-pubertal age range. Math requires understanding some fairly abstract concepts and applying problem-solving skills, yet many students at that age are still not matured to that level of thinking yet, and are still learning by rote memorization and need tangible examples to understand. We still get this variation among the freshmen and sophomores in college, though not to the same extreme you'd see in high school.

I'm not necessarily blaming the kids, but we're failing them at some point in their math educations (probably by NOT failing them when they deserve it). I see the point of both sides here. If we go easy on them, of course they'll do worse, but how is a teacher supposed to teach algebra to a student who can't do -5-2?

I think that you've already answered your question, to some extent. You shouldn't have to teach more advanced math classes to students who haven't mastered the basic lessons. I don't think the remedy is to dumb down the algebra class, but to not teach algebra to students until they have mastered their lower level classes. It may not even require failing them, but recognizing that they need to be on a different track that advances at a slower pace. If they aren't doing well in pre-algebra (not even the ones who should fail, but those only getting a C who really aren't ready for the next level course yet), don't push them along to algebra I, but instead put them into something called "Pre-algebra II" or "Algebra IA" (which would cover only half the content of Algebra I in the same period of time, then be followed by the second half in IB in another year) or something like that, where they are slowed down to learn at a pace they can handle. This would provide more time in the curriculum to backtrack and remediate weaknesses too.

 

[phyzmatix]

I think part of the problem is that people are reluctant to pay all those tenured, mediocre teachers more while raising starting salaries for those who are better teachers, but the unions get in the way and expect that if you raise starting salaries, you have to raise all salaries.

It's a good point, which is probably also why a lot of the really good teachers end up teaching at private schools...

Not in the UK it isn't - the problem is that there is no link between performance and pay.
You are are hired and then as long as you remember not to have sex with one of the kids you have the job for life, it is impossible to get rid of a bad teacher. Your pay rises automatically with seniority and promotion is based on who has been at the school the longest.

The only real performance goals come when you want to make head - then there is competition against 'super-heads' hired straight from industry for their management experience.

Could this be partly due to there already being a massive shortage of teachers in the UK (based on hearsay)? I know that a LOT of qualified South African teachers are drawn to the UK because of the ease of finding work and (as you mentioned) the comparatively good salary.

But then again, a lot of South Africans are moving to the UK...period...:tongue:

 

[mbisCool]

Although i still believe somewhere along the line students are developing educational apathy and have no desire to learn, standardized testing doesn't seem to help to the problem. In washington we have the WASL(pretty sure all or most states have a standardized test similar to this) which govens the schools funding.

Because this test is so important to funding, year after year after year the teachers teach strictly to pass this test. I relate this to high school AP where a lot of material is skipped over so that the topics on the AP test can be practiced more.

Sadly a such a giant portion of my high school, after years of practice for the WASL failed even though you need to be half decent at algebra and be able to write a horrendous essay to pass...although this is probably due to earlier learning or lack there of in the student's educational careers at least in part.

So yeah, I am sure we can come up with an infinite amount of factors in todays educational decline but in the end, if the students wanted to learn they would. Any insight into how we might inspire learning desire into the youth? I think any consistant approach would be difficult as children lack the maturity level of adults so they may just dismiss education without second thought. I know when I was a kid my education never really crossed my mind even when adults would explain the advantages of being educated.

 

[Moonbear]

Because this test is so important to funding, year after year after year the teachers teach strictly to pass this test. I relate this to high school AP where a lot of material is skipped over so that the topics on the AP test can be practiced more.

What's unfortunate, especially in an AP level course, is that they are then depriving those students of the education they would have gotten at the university level. The point of an AP test is to test out of introductory courses at university, so if material is being skipped just to pass a test, that's just as bad as the students in the intro courses who only study as much as they think they need to study to pass the course rather than really learn the material. I'd love to track how well students who place out of introductory courses through AP exams ultimately perform in more advanced courses. In my own experience, I sorely regretted placing out of some intro courses way back when...there were definitely different things covered at the university level that I should have learned to prep me for the more advanced classes, and by not learning those as part of the intro courses, I had more of a struggle keeping up and understanding and sometimes backtracking to learn on my own the material I needed to succeed in advanced courses. I always felt like I was catching up rather than keeping up.

The other unfortunate thing is when you "teach to a test," that's usually preparing students to think only in very concrete terms. "This is the question you'll be asked, and this is the answer you should give." It involves a lot of memorization without understanding. If they were better taught to apply critical thinking skills through more open-ended creative questions in the course, they could do very well on the exam even on topics they haven't covered in depth, because they should be able to reason their way through to the right answer. I don't want to see them just able to answer a question based on content they've memorized long enough to take a test and then forget by the time the summer recess is over, I want to see them learn how to think and reason through a problem so even when they encounter a question on something they have not learned, they can figure it out.

 

[harvellt]

I think the problem starts at the lowest level of education. I can't find the article but in the NY Times a few weeks ago was an about how 2nd-6th grade school teachers are not required to have high school level algebra skills. The school solution to this was to higher math tutors to come in and help teach the math. It the system seems broken from the bottom up.
No matter how good the system is its always going to be hard to draw kids into school when parents, and popular media are constantly telling them it is its boring and its just something they "have to do" instead of showing school is something they could enjoy instead of endure.

 

[mathwonk]

teaching to the test is bad, but it cannot be the sole responsibility of the teacher not to engage in it. An enduring memory for me is the scenes in the movie "Dead poets society" contrasting Robin Williams's character having the students tear out from their English books the deadeningly stupid discussion on written analysis, versus his rigid replacement asking students to turn to it and read it.

Then a short while later I read in the news that the outstanding teacher on whom the movie character was based, had been fired. I do not know the reasons for that event, but I do read every year in my city newspaper reports of comparative scores at local schools, and essentially nothing else. If the teacher's salary and tenure are based on test scores, it is a rare teacher who will resist teaching to that test.

The university of Georgia mathematics education department was recently honored for its "exemplary" job of preparing teachers by focusing on student understanding rather than just drilling on following procedures. The bad news is this: UGA was the ONLY exemplary department found in the nation, of the 77 programs examined.

 

[turbo]

When I was in HS, most kids in my town didn't (couldn't) go to college, and the few that did went to business school or teacher's college. After our junior year of HS, my cousin, another young lady, and another guy and I wanted more math, and we had exhausted the math curriculum of the tiny school. Our math teacher was a young guy a couple of years out of school, and he agreed to set up an advanced math class for our senior year, for just 4 kids. He expected a lot of us and he got it.

I'm pretty proud of that teacher. He agreed to coach the basketball team, and went on to earn 6 straight state class D titles, and achieved a two-year unbeaten streak despite having much larger class C schools in the regular schedule. One year, the team was invited to a special round-robin playoff over the holidays, and they went unbeaten, defeating the eventual Class A champions. Not bad for a school that topped out at 42 kids for the 1970 (baby boom) class that I graduated in.

 

[bleedblue1234]

Here's a perspective from a high school junior:

First off, I take my education seriously... I think there is some internal drive to do well, something that makes high achievers ascend even higher and other people just accept 'average'...

There reasons I think much of why we, as high school students, don't accomplish what many people say is 'good education' is because there is such an achievement gap these days between the top 10% and the bottom 10%... head over to http://talk.collegeconfidential.com" and take a look at just how motivated and accomplished some kids are these days... it is incredible...

 

[Tobias Funke]

The other unfortunate thing is when you "teach to a test," that's usually preparing students to think only in very concrete terms. "This is the question you'll be asked, and this is the answer you should give." It involves a lot of memorization without understanding. If they were better taught to apply critical thinking skills through more open-ended creative questions in the course, they could do very well on the exam even on topics they haven't covered in depth, because they should be able to reason their way through to the right answer. I don't want to see them just able to answer a question based on content they've memorized long enough to take a test and then forget by the time the summer recess is over, I want to see them learn how to think and reason through a problem so even when they encounter a question on something they have not learned, they can figure it out.

My school is adopting the IB program next year and on the one hand, it seems more rigorous and better overall than a typical high school program, but on the other hand I'm starting to get the impression that it's just another test prep style course, at least at the lower levels. Listen to the first sentence of a text I'm looking over: "This book has been written to help you prepare for and pass the Mathematical Studies exam". That worries me.

Anybody here have experience with IB, as a student or a teacher? I have a feeling it's a pretty good program, but I'm getting tired of hearing IB representatives acting like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[thrill3rnit3]

Maybe it's just me, but damn it, just make the curriculum harder.

Forces the kids to actually study and forces the teachers to actually know the material.

Instead of some watered down bullcrap education we have in the United States. They're trying to water it down to fit the knowledge and capability of the student. Damn, that makes students slack because they know that the teacher would adjust.

But if we actually made the students study, then there wouldn't be any problems. What can make them study? Harder material.

If they still don't want to study, then that's their problem, they should have fun mopping the floor at the nearby McDonalds.

 

[razored]

Maybe it's just me, but damn it, just make the curriculum harder.

Forces the kids to actually study and forces the teachers to actually know the material.

Instead of some watered down bullcrap education we have in the United States. They're trying to water it down to fit the knowledge and capability of the student. Damn, that makes students slack because they know that the teacher would adjust.

But if we actually made the students study, then there wouldn't be any problems. What can make them study? Harder material.

If they still don't want to study, then that's their problem, they should have fun mopping the floor at the nearby McDonalds.

I think some schools try to make the curriculum harder but the teachers don't do as told. But yeah, I totally agree.

 

[thrill3rnit3]

Plus kids wanting to get rid of standardized testing is IMO more about them not wanting to prepare for it than them actually figuring out why "it's not a measure of one's true abilities"

puh-leeze. the stuff on the sat is not an 1/8ths as hard as college material.