What gave Science it's status/credibility?

[27Thousand]

Was it more coming up with clever experiments, or the useful technology/applications that came about from it?

The reason I ask is when I look at many famous experiments, no one even cared about a lot of them until many years later.

Just curious.

 

[Pengwuino]

Are you being more abstract or are you talking about specific areas or time periods or what?

On the abstract side of how science became credible, i'd say it's because it did what it meant to do, predict and explain phenomenon that were previously inconsistently explained or not explained at all up to that point.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

For the masses: technology and application.

For intellectuals: the ability to explain and predict phenomena.

 

[27Thousand]

Are you being more abstract or are you talking about specific areas or time periods or what?

On the abstract side of how science became credible, i'd say it's because it did what it meant to do, predict and explain phenomenon that were previously inconsistently explained or not explained at all up to that point.

One example that made me ask this, I was reading about Germ Theory, the explanation that germs cause some diseases. People used to not believe that. Check this out, Ignaz Semmelweis noticed patients who were touched by workers who touches autopsies, they were quite likely to get sick and possibly die. Then he did an experiment where had workers in the hospital wash their hands with water and lime, and then all of a sudden the deaths went down. However, "Nevertheless, he and his theories were viciously attacked by most of the Viennese medical establishment." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory#Histories That doesn't sound like logic and reasoning convincing them. I don't know if that just meant people needed more time, or something in addition?

 

[27Thousand]

Are you being more abstract or are you talking about specific areas or time periods or what?

On the abstract side of how science became credible, i'd say it's because it did what it meant to do, predict and explain phenomenon that were previously inconsistently explained or not explained at all up to that point.

Another reason I ask is there's the post "How do you 'read' the flirting traffic signals women send men?" There was similar methodology to what they use in biology/medicine, however many PF members seemed to push aside the possibility that women often send men signals with body language. So from the broader perspective, that's why I was wondering if it's more the scientific method or technology/applications in gaining credibility, or maybe even mathematical equations (besides the null hypothesis which everyone uses), you know what I'm saying? What type of credibility would be required for people to entertain the possibility that women send men body language signals most of the time before men ask them on dates?

As you know, in the Scientific Method you make observations, then formulate explanations/rules, then come up with experiments to test, and use replication/peer-review. So various researchers independently put up cameras at places where singles meet and ask on dates/socialize. They found from the cameras most of the time when a man asked a woman on a date, she sent out some subtle body language beforehand (most of the time automatic/not thinking about it). Although this wasn't all the time, it was most of the time. Most of the time when the man was rejected, she didn't send any signals. Women didn't send out too many body language signals in places not as appropriate to interact, while a lot more signals at places appropriate to mingle (for example bars were a major hotspot of body language). The women who sent out the most body language signals were the most likely to be asked on dates. Multiple researchers found this independently and put their research in academic peer-review journals; it was replicated.

Keep in mind after observations with statistics, you've "gotta test your explanations/rules with experiments". So there have been experiments where they'd have women confederates go out into public doing some of the body language signals versus not doing them, smiling and repeated glances, and these particular body language signals caused men to approach. In addition to field work experiments, there's lab work. There was a lab experiment where they had quite a few women and men talk to each other one-on-one and the women would rate how attracted they were afterward. They had video cameras and found the women gave off body language signals that had been planned to be tested against a null hypothesis before the experiment was started. Also, "In a later study, Moore found that female courtship behavior was so striking that a trained observer could use its frequency to predict with a high degree of accuracy the outcome of interactions between men and women! In addition, the frequency of signaling appeared to be the more important factor in eliciting approaches from men, overriding such attributes as physical attractiveness."

So in your opinion, what needs to be done to test it better? Do you think more specific postulates? A different type of experimental design? Being applied to "technology"? Specific mathematical equations beyond the null hypothesis? (The latter would be sweet)

 

[russ_watters]

Being right.

 

[arildno]

On an entirely speculative side, one might wonder if a different distribution of ascientific assumptions about "the real world" might make one cultural domain less receptive towards scientific ideas than another.

For example, if there is a widespread belief in ghosts, spirits, imps and invisible pranksters, the basic (meta-physical) idea that the world is fundamentally ordered and regular (.ie, obedient to certain laws) might meet up with more initial resistance than within a culture where belief in such supernatural creatures is less prevalent.

 

[Proton Soup]

results

 

[27Thousand]

Being right.

So from your perspective what does being right mean, internal/external validity experiments, or technology/applications?

 

[Chi Meson]

So from your perspective what does being right mean, internal/external validity experiments, or technology/applications?

I would say, all of the above.

Science has not been "100% correct, 100% of the time." That which makes science better than any form of dogma or philosophy, is that it can change without being fundamentally overturned.

Lots of things can change, but when a dogmatic belief changes (philosophy or religion) it turns away, or breaks apart from the previous belief. In science, when a mistake is discovered, it is fixed by adding new knowledge to the existing framework.

In general, when this is done, it is NOT like adding on a new gizmo to an already complicated boat (Science does not sail in one direction).

Improvement is science comes by either taking away a part that is unnecessary (e.g. the "aether") or filling in a hole (all of quantum). The end result is that scientific knowledge becomes stronger and more interconnected while the basic rules that govern everything become fewer and simpler. Meanwhile, scientific knowledge grows in all directions.

Whereas philosophical dogma builds on the "dialectic" where an "antithesis," or counter argument, rejects the previous belief. Then the "synthesis" follows folding bits of the two formerly adverse beliefs into a new worldview. In this manner, the dominant philosophical beliefs of the day are fundamentally different every 50 years or so. (Hey guess who took Philosophy in college 20 years ago?).

Science has not fundamentally shifted in its methods since the days of Galileo. When you read this on your computer monitor, you MUST realize that it is not like the invention of the wheel or the discovery of fire. No one noticed a computer in their cave 10,000 years ago and started to investigate it to figure out how to make their own. Everything that modern technology has given us (and not just the destructive stuff) came about because our understanding of everything down to the fundamental particles was correct.

Lasers work. MRIs work. Microwave ovens work. Superfluids have been observed. These are things that do not exist in nature, but are the result of manipulating the rules of nature that we have discovered. If we were not correct, none of these things would exist.

And that is a very short sample from a long list.

 

[Astronuc]

I agree with Chi and Russ.

It's the methods of science and being right which leads to discoveries and successful applications.

 

[russ_watters]

So from your perspective what does being right mean, internal/external validity experiments, or technology/applications?

Both, but more the first than the second. A theory and experiment that tests it need not lead directly to a practical application to contribute to the knowledgebase of humanity or to raise the stature/reputation of science.

The reason I ask is when I look at many famous experiments, no one even cared about a lot of them until many years later.

Define "no one". Certainly scientists recognize how profound a new theory/discovery is to the body of human knowledge. Whether the general public does then or ever make that recognition really is an irrelevancy.

For example: the vast majority of GPS users know essentially nothing about most of the underlying science of how GPS works. They don't know, nor do they care about it - they just care that the GPS works. The engineers who designed it trust the science it is based on, of course - they have to! But neither the scientists who came up with the underlying science (most of whom are dead anyway) nor the engineers who packaged it into a device care whether the GPS device raises the user's trust of science/engineering. The engineers are in it for the money and pride. The scientists more for the pride.

 

[Proton Soup]

there's not nearly as much money nor pride in engineering as you seem to think. you must be thinking about business. real engineers enjoy making things work. and you can't trust the science, not one damn bit. that's why you test everything. it's all about results.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm an engineer, Proton Soup. I know there isn't as much money in it as in business. But I think there is more money in it than in science.

I like engineering, but a job is a job: I have a job in order to collect a paycheck. I get the impression that many scientists would want to be researchers whether they got paid for it or not. One of my mom's cousins is a retired professor and he spends his time at a cyclotron at UPenn. When I retire, it's golf, cruises and astronomy for me.

 

[Sorry!]

I would say that russ is right... I'm pretty sure an engineer makes about double the annual salary of a scientist on average... I feel scientist do the work because they really love what they do. Engineers may like their job but as russ pointed out it's a method to earn money... I've talked to my friends in engineering and they agree with russ's comments.

I.e. When they retire they won't be 'continuing' their job. Maybe now and then doing random things for fun but nothing extreme.

 

[27Thousand]

So what I'm trying to figure out, if it's mostly internal/external validity experiments rather than technology/applications, why was PhysicsForums not so open to the peer-review studies on "How do you 'read' the flirting traffic signals women send men", about women sending men non-verbal flirting signals without thinking about it and men often not making a move if they don't "feel it"? Do you just think it is because many of us members are more trained to look at experiments in Physics instead of other fields?

 

[Chi Meson]

Social and psychological experiments are notoriously "soft." Data is very difficult to quantify, and the "formulas" are almost entirely subject to personal, subjective opinions and biases.

Social "signals" have been studied for decades, if not centuries. It is highly doubtful that any recent studies have "cracked the code." Some signals are clearly learned through chit chat with friends and are therefore invented and subject to change over time.

In physics and other "hard sciences" we can get immediately verifying (or falsifying) data. Things will work, or they don't. In sociology, we are continuously "looking into it."

I usually am not interested in sociology experiments, and in male/female signals I really have no interest at all (way past that point in life). If you are personally intrigued, then this suggests an area that you might want to consider for your own further education.

 

[27Thousand]

Okay, I think this is important as to why I'm curious about internal/external validity experiments vs. technology/applications.

Social and psychological experiments are notoriously "soft." Data is very difficult to quantify, and the "formulas" are almost entirely subject to personal, subjective opinions and biases.

Although I absolutely agree that physics is quite more objective/systematic compared to psychological research, biology, meteorology, etc, can you really say these psychological sciences are not falsifiable/systematic with their "actual physical data"? Have you actually looked at original psychological peer-review journals and how they conduct methodologies/null hypothesis testing plus the peer-review process? If something uses a method to measure data and it's statistically significant, then what's the chance systematic variance (observable data) is due to chance? To put things into perspective as far as models changing over time, consider, in Physics didn't they first say "Newtonian Physics", then many changed with "Einstein's Relativity", then many said "Quantum Theory"? Now there are many many theories on what gravitation, etc is (string theory, etc). Isn't the only thing consistent in Physics are the physical observations being replicated, while the models/explanation/laws change to fit new incoming evidence?

As far as objectivity, here's something that you may want to consider, in biology/medicine they'll do field work using the null hypothesis, then others will follow up using lab experiments to control for variables. So after those independent researchers in field studies used hidden cameras at singles events to see how womens' body language is when being asked out vs. not, other researchers decided to follow up with lab experiments to control for some other variables. In one peer-review lab experiment listed below and web link to abstract, they used random selection of guys/girls from classes and told them they would be participating in an experiment. Then they would have a pair, a male and female stranger, wait in a room for 10 minutes together while the researcher supposedly was away answering a phone call. What they didn't know was a hidden camera on the other side of a one way mirror was video taping their body language the whole time. Then afterward the researchers had the woman rate how attracted she felt to the man, both physical attractiveness and how likely she would give him her number or go to the cinema with him on a number scale. If they answered they suspected they were being videotaped, they were excluded from the results (only one pair out of the 46).

As far as Spearman correlation, the Coy Smile correlated 0.34 with professed interest and Primping 0.35 both at statistical significance of p<0.05 two tailed, while legs open was not statistically significant. Don't you think that is an objective/systematic way of reporting empirical data? Then if it's in a peer-review journal that can be reviewed by other experts? Although those correlations would be weak for Physics, some of them were strong for social science standards and how is that not systematic/objective way of reporting data in hypothesis testing?

Grammer, K., Kruck, K., Juette, A. & Fink, B. (2000) Non-verbal behaviour as courtship signals: the role of control and choice in selecting partners. Evolution and Human Behaviour, 21, 371-390.
Abstract at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6H-421TM0X-1&_user=464852&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000022310&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=464852&md5=0c5b15d1f03b840a798d69b1f4ce2b23

Then there are other studies to control for other variables, where they would have female confederates try non-verbal behaviors in public without knowing knowing exactly what's going on, and using the null to see if there was a statistically significant chance they would be approached by men.

That's why I wonder if it's because for flirting signals they need more specific principles with mathematical equations like they have in Physics, or more applied technology instead? Remember, there are many equations in various physical sciences that don't necessarily say "This will happen exactly this way each time", but rather "(whatever) percent chance this will happen within this range" which can be made falsifiable (meteorology, many parts of biology and geology, etc). Some food for thought, I was thinking what if they do that for flirting non-verbal behavior?

 

[27Thousand]

Define "no one". Certainly scientists recognize how profound a new theory/discovery is to the body of human knowledge. Whether the general public does then or ever make that recognition really is an irrelevancy.

Okay, maybe not "no one", but rather most rejected. For example post 4 with Ignaz Semmelweis and his very famous experiment which contributed to scientists believing germs causing disease. Although his experiment sounded clever, "Nevertheless, he and his theories were viciously attacked by most of the Viennese medical establishment." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory#Histories That doesn't sound like logic and reasoning convincing them. I don't know if that just meant people needed technology, more time, or something in addition?

 

[magpies]

Generaly any new idea will scare a person. So the newer the idea probably the more scary it is. I think this because some of the time I challenge myself to come up with new ideas and almost every time I do they scare me... It is only after some time after Iv had the new idea am I actualy able to process it.

 

[Chi Meson]

hey, 27k, you are just going to have to accept the fact that this subject interests you far more than it interests anyone else here.

 

[Pinu7]

Being right.

Only for the fact that we are often, and we acknowledge, wrong.

If it weren't for wrong but established scientific laws being discredited, how would there be any scientific advancement?

 

[27Thousand]

Only for the fact that we are often, and we acknowledge, wrong.

If it weren't for wrong but established scientific laws being discredited, how would there be any scientific advancement?

I agree. That's the strength of Science. They have peer-review, hypothesis testing, falsification, etc. Although critics of Popper say that you can't falsify for sure, that most theories have had their failed experiments, and you go with the explanation that fits the evidence the best, it's still true that it's easier to disprove laws/explanations than prove. Falsification means "the logical possibility to disprove", not "will be disproved" or even in reality will be disproved. Allowing the logical possibility I would think allows the advancement of Science.

 

[aquitaine]

Was it more coming up with clever experiments, or the useful technology/applications that came about from it?

The reason I ask is when I look at many famous experiments, no one even cared about a lot of them until many years later.

Just curious.

From what I have read, before World War 2 the US as a nation didn't really invest that much in science as most people thought it was useless, and if you look at the list of nobel prize winners for chemistry from 1901 to 1939, all but 3 were European, for physics during the same time period it was all but 6 were European. American attitudes about science only seemed to change after the atomic bomb made it clear what science was capable of doing, and after that the US become the dominant force in the science world.

 

[arildno]

"American attitudes about science only seemed to change after the atomic bomb made it clear what science was capable of doing, and after that the US become the dominant force in the science world. "

A mere change in "attitude" would not have mattered much; what REALLY mattered was the implementation of a deliberate policy to attract to the US the top scientists from around the world.

The US initiated a highly successful "brain gain" game.

 

[bassplayer142]

Once the first caveman used the wheel to move his stuff rather than carrying it.

 

[fourier jr]

i say the mathematicization of science is what gave it its credibility. just think of isaac Newton's "i feign no hypothesis" quotation:

I have not as yet been able to discover the reason for these properties of gravity from phenomena, and I do not feign hypotheses. For whatever is not deduced from the phenomena must be called a hypothesis; and hypotheses, whether metaphysical or physical, or based on occult qualities, or mechanical, have no place in experimental philosophy. In this philosophy particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction.

in other words, Newton didn't try to explain any more about gravity other than to describe what it does precisely using math, rather than understand how it works, what causes it, etc. galileo had that original idea, & also the function concept, descartes created analytic geometry & the philosophy that underlies Newton's work. before that, there was the copernican system, which was mathematically simplest, and at the time was its only advantage. math is what gives science its credibility.

 

[DaveC426913]

... why was PhysicsForums not so open to the peer-review studies on "How do you 'read' the flirting traffic signals women send men", about women sending men non-verbal flirting signals without thinking about it and men often not making a move if they don't "feel it"?

Before you conclude this, find out if it's true. Get some of that empirical data that science loves so much.

Create a poll. Ask if PFers believe that women do or do not not flirt with men non-verbally.

 

[Moonbear]

Although I absolutely agree that physics is quite more objective/systematic compared to psychological research, biology, meteorology, etc, can you really say these psychological sciences are not falsifiable/systematic with their "actual physical data"?

I think you need to stop right there and check your premise. Yes, there are parts of psychological research for which it's difficult to be as objective, that is NOT true for other sciences such as biology or meteorology. As for being systematic, you are completely off base. All sciences must be systematic. Psychological research is just as hypothesis driven as any other science, and has the same requirements of falsifiability. I wish physicists would take a little time to learn about the other sciences and get off this high horse that all other sciences are "soft" or not as rigorous, or not systematic. This is a constantly repeated myth here and elsewhere, and it gets tiring that it is perpetuated based on personal bias rather than evidence or education about these other fields.

 

[DrClapeyron]

the ability to make money.

 

[Pythagorean]

I think you need to stop right there and check your premise. Yes, there are parts of psychological research for which it's difficult to be as objective, that is NOT true for other sciences such as biology or meteorology. As for being systematic, you are completely off base. All sciences must be systematic. Psychological research is just as hypothesis driven as any other science, and has the same requirements of falsifiability. I wish physicists would take a little time to learn about the other sciences and get off this high horse that all other sciences are "soft" or not as rigorous, or not systematic. This is a constantly repeated myth here and elsewhere, and it gets tiring that it is perpetuated based on personal bias rather than evidence or education about these other fields.

I agree. Coming from a physics background, and now shifting my interest to psychology and neurology, I've become very impressed with the methods in psychology compared to what my physics education had implied about it.

 

[Chi Meson]

I think you need to stop right there and check your premise. Yes, there are parts of psychological research for which it's difficult to be as objective, that is NOT true for other sciences such as biology or meteorology. As for being systematic, you are completely off base. All sciences must be systematic. Psychological research is just as hypothesis driven as any other science, and has the same requirements of falsifiability. I wish physicists would take a little time to learn about the other sciences and get off this high horse that all other sciences are "soft" or not as rigorous, or not systematic. This is a constantly repeated myth here and elsewhere, and it gets tiring that it is perpetuated based on personal bias rather than evidence or education about these other fields.

[looks around] who? Wha...? For the record, I never implied biology as being "soft." Squishy. maybe. but only during dissections.

I also should make it clear that I don't think sociology psychology is unscientific, nor invalid, only that quantifiable information is much more difficult to obtain, leaving larger room for error and subjective interpretation.

 

[MissSilvy]

What type of credibility would be required for people to entertain the possibility that women send men body language signals most of the time before men ask them on dates?

I wasn't going to comment, but this clinched it.

First, there is no shortage of recluses on internet forums worrying themselves into a froth over romance and the opposite sex. People tend to ignore it because a. this is not a scientific study, it is an informal survey on the internet and b. What would you gain by understanding a few vague, easily confused, and wildly variable 'signals'? Would you suddenly become a million times more confident with women? Would you star amassing your harem? It's like saying, 'oh I would have no trouble writing my New York Times bestseller novel if only I had a super fancy laptop!' Misplaced hopes.

Also, you are not an expert in psychology. If you were even literate in the subject, you'd know that there have been about a thousand studies done ON THIS EXACT TOPIC! I hate to break it to you, but your 'theory' is not new, very interesting, supported by anything but anecdotes and conjectures or well-thought out.

Also, PMing female forum members out of th blue and uninvited was a bit off-putting, don't you think?

 

[27Thousand]

If you were even literate in the subject, you'd know that there have been about a thousand studies done ON THIS EXACT TOPIC! I hate to break it to you, but your 'theory' is not new, very interesting, supported by anything but anecdotes and conjectures or well-thought out.

Remember, I didn't say it was new. I said that it's been studied by many independently and is in quite a few scientific/academic peer-review journals, and so can it just be ignored without having another explanation? How do you explain all the scientific/academic peer-review journal articles at the bottom, which methodologies can be reviewed by other experts (not anecdotes but has been replicated)? If there's a control group and an experimental group, can you explain how that is not using the Scientific Method? If something makes predictions and uses the null hypothesis, then what is that? Keep in mind it's not one body language behavior, that's not how body language works, but rather multiple ones and within the context of the situation.

As far as the Scientific Method, don't you first make observations, then an explanation/rules, then experiments to test? So for the observation part, if multiple independent researchers put cameras up at singles events and then into scientific/academic peer-review journals where other experts can review, how would you explain to us that not being verifiable? Then if they have some women use some of those body language on men in public and others using something not those behaviors to see how the independent variable affects the dependent variable of whether the man approaches the lady how is that not experimentation in peer-review journal (even if it isn't as controlled as Physics experiments)? How do you explain it beating the null hypothesis? Then if in a lab they have women stay in a room one on one with a man, while filming body language behind a one way mirror, and then asking her afterward to rate how attracted she felt to the man, how do you explain if some of the non-verbal behaviors beat the null and appear to be associated with her rating of the man? How is that not making data falsifiable?


If it doesn't follow the Scientific Method, then maybe you can explain these? :

Walsh, D. G., & Hewitt, J. (1985). Giving men the come-on: Effect of eye contact and smiling in a bar environment. Perceptual and Motor Skills, 61, 873-874. (an experiment)

Moore, M.M. (1985) "Nonverbal Courtship Patterns in Women: Context and Consequences." Ethology and Sociobiology, 6:237-247.

Moore, M. M., & Butler, D. L. (1989). Predictive aspects of nonverbal courtship behavior in women. Semiotica, 3, 205-215.

Moore, Monica (1995). "Courtship Signaling and Adolescents: 'Girls Just Wanna Have Fun'?". The Journal of Sex Research, 32(4), 319-328.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3813356

Grammer, K., Kruck, K., Juette, A. & Fink, B. (2000) Non-verbal behaviour as courtship signals: the role of control and choice in selecting partners. Evolution and Human Behaviour, 21, 371-390.
Abstract at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6H-421TM0X-1&_user=464852&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000022310&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=464852&md5=0c5b15d1f03b840a798d69b1f4ce2b23

Grammar, Karl (1990). Strangers meet: Laughter and nonverbal signs of interest in opposite-sex encounters. Journal of Nonverbal Behavior, 14(4), 209-236.
Abstract at http://www.springerlink.com/content/x813q68424g46550/

Then there's also the Social Issues Research Centre which takes much peer-review research and puts it in layman terms: http://www.sirc.org/publik/flirt.html , which even talks about using body language in testing the waters to see how the other responds.

 

[27Thousand]

Also, PMing female forum members out of th blue and uninvited was a bit off-putting, don't you think?

OMG, I don't understand why those roommates and some PF members cared so much about having all concepts not physically being in a book somewhere in the world, like that conceptualize phrase? I mean, doesn't that sound like something so extremely trivial to get flustered over, on making sure nothing is physically in a book? Especially a phrase like that one? I kept on telling them that I didn't physically read that phrase in a book nor heard it before and even had Google to back myself up. I don't understand why these people are so "obsessed" over whether something's in a book? Even if that conceptualize phrase would have originated from a book, I could be wrong but don't reasonable and prudent people say knowledge is better than ignorance?