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Then Nevada or companies there would have to magically reduce their grid operating costs due to an increase in rooftop solar (otherwise the causal connection is not there). That won't happen.
While I agree that market economics dictates such changes as you and others describe, the hidden assumption here that market economics apply is tenuous at best.mfb said:Then Nevada or companies there would have to magically reduce their grid operating costs due to an increase in rooftop solar (otherwise the causal connection is not there). That won't happen.
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/utilities-push-back-against-solarmfb said:Then Nevada or companies there would have to magically reduce their grid operating costs due to an increase in rooftop solar (otherwise the causal connection is not there). That won't happen.
Agreed, solar should flatten out at a couple percent if some restraint were applied to the money and mandates thrown at it. However, Germany is already 8% solar over the year (2015), with residential electricity users suffering a tripling of rates over the last 20 years, the 2nd highest in Europe. California washttp://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.html [Broken] in-state generation (2014). (Edit: CA solar share rose tohttp://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/electric_generation_capacity.html [Broken])russ_watters said:Personally, the most likely scenario to me is that solar flattens out at 2 or 3% and none of the problems with managing it ever materialize. Why? Because there is only so much money available for political footballs and the absurd subsidies for solar are already starting to dry-up.
http://www.aweablog.org/american-innovation-at-work-u-s-worlds-top-wind-energy-producer/
in world
The U.S. led the world in wind energy production in 2015.
Greg Alvarez
March 2, 2016
http://www.awea.org/MediaCenter/pressrelease.aspx?ItemNumber=8463 created more electricity from wind than any other country in 2015, according to new data released by the Global Wind Energy Council and the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).
American ingenuity and strong wind resources have helped make U.S. turbines the most productive in the world, producing over 190 million megawatt-hours of electricity in 2015. That’s significantly more than runners-up China, Germany and Spain. Although China has more than two times the installed wind power capacity as the U.S., production-based policies and top notch wind reserves allowed American turbines to generate more energy.
The new data also included some impressive milestones. Iowa became the first state to crack 30 percent wind-generated electricity, and 12 states now generate at least 10 percent of their electricity with wind. New to that list is Texas, the nation’s largest electricity user.
That is a pleasant bit of news. Digging coal is backbreaking work. It'll be a great day when we only need enough of it to power our steam toys and hobbyist blacksmith forges .rootone said:Here is cause for optimism for a change.
http://www.sciencealert.com/portugal-just-ran-for-4-straight-days-entirely-on-renewable-energy
rootone said:An interesting point that.
Portugal happens to be gifted with a variety of renewable energy sources.
As you say though it has arid climate in summer and air conditioning is necessary for a comfortable life.
Could there be a way to store the excess natural energy in autumn through to spring, release in summer to cool living spaces down . ?
Technically correct. But if you compare it to other numbers...The United States created more electricity from wind than any other country in 2015
rootone said:Here is cause for optimism for a change.
http://www.sciencealert.com/portugal-just-ran-for-4-straight-days-entirely-on-renewable-energy
http://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/portugal
Portugal
Portugal statistics
Area:
92,200 sq km
Population:
10,460,000
Installed hydropower capacity:
4,455 MW + 1,343 MW pumped storage (2014)
Hydropower generation:
16.16 TWh (2014)
That's 1.81kw per person, 24% of it hydrohttp://mecometer.com/whats/portugal/electricity-installed-generating-capacity/
The Electricity - installed generating capacity of Portugal is 18.9 ( millions of kW) with a global rank of 36.
I'm not sure who's idea that was.jim hardy said:...
I don't think 100% renewable is practical
and oil too.but every kwh from it is a pound of coal somebody didn't have to dig out of the ground.
Never heard of it.Ever watch movie "October Sky" ?
OmCheeto said:But just found it.
jim hardy said:PS If you ever get invited to tour a coal mine don't wear a suit.
jim hardy said:...looks like there's potential to double our hydro.
jim hardy said:http://energy.gov/eere/water/hydropower-resource-assessment-and-characterization
looks like there's potential to double our hydro. But it's dependent on rainfall, see
jack action said:It is so funny for a Quebecer to read this stuff about renewable energy being the impossible dream.
There's also the "psychology" factor. Which I consider the ground/individual, and most important level.anorlunda said:...Seriously though, politics and energy are inseparable. It is unrealistic to sit around debating it solely on the technical merits.
Not "renewable", but solar and wind power are the improbable dream for running an entire power grid, so too any other kind of highly variable energy source.jack action said:It is so funny for a Quebecer to read this stuff about renewable energy being the impossible dream.
In Quebec, we are 8 300 000 people on a 1 542 056 km² of land (compare that to Portugal). As of 2014, we have access to 46 314 MW of electricity generation, which 96-99% (not sure what «other suppliers» are) are from renewable sources (hydro, wind, biomass, biogas cogeneration), the rest being produced by gas-fired turbines and diesel, mostly for convenience. 165 TWh per year are reserved for our grid at low cost (by law) and we sell the excess to others inside and outside the province. We may not use A/C as much as in the south, but we do need to heat our homes in the winter.
In 2012, we shut down the only nuclear plant we had.
We are currently adding 1 550 MW to produce 8 TWh of electricity.
Any renewable source that is not hydro, we exploit it - basically - just for fun.
We are blessed.
At the end of June the Gorona del Viento (GdV) plant completed its first year of full operation, during which it supplied 34.6% of El Hierro’s electricity demand with renewable electricity at a cost probably exceeding €1.00/kWh and lowered the island’s CO2 emissions by approximately 12,000 tons at a cost of around €1,000/ton. This post summarizes these unexpectedly poor results, discusses the reasons for them and concludes that GdV, which was intended to show the world how fossil fuel generation can readily be replaced with intermittent renewables, can already be classified as a “failed project”. GdV’s performance further suggests that replacing fossil fuels with intermittent renewables elsewhere in the world could be a lot more difficult than the proponents of renewable energy are prepared to admit.
The answer is simple. Intermittent renewable energy is not going to replace dispatchable fossil fuel generation without adequate energy storage backup, and since the amount of energy storage needed is almost always prohibitive it follows that an energy future based entirely on intermittent renewables is not a realistic prospect. As discussed at length in previous posts the only way to integrate significant amounts of intermittent renewable energy with the grid is by maintaining enough dispatchable capacity to cover demand when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine. GdV has in fact already effectively defaulted into this operating mode.
Straw_Cat said:Once all this [El Hierro] is set up this will be among the first 100% renewably-powered places on the planet (there are a few others already...).
I don't understand what the problem is. We run only on hydro-electricity here (Québec) and they actually let the water pass by when electricity demand is low or even cut-off completely a turbine and nobody says «OMG, we wasted liquid electricity!» and the prices surely don't drop!Astronuc said:Texas Surplus in Wind Energy - too much of good thing, ain't so good.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a22228/texas-is-drowning-in-wind-energy/
jack action said:I don't understand what the problem is
Yes, but how is controlling supply a problem?gmax137 said:a few things about the grid:
1. supply must match demand, in real time. If not, voltage gets out of whack and very bad things can happen
2. the grid operator doesn't control demand (usually)
3. the grid operator doesn't control the price they pay for power.
None of these are of concern if you're running your own windmill to supply your own loads.
Power plants cannot switch on/off too fast, switching thermal power plants too often (=heat cycles) is bad for the material, and the cost distribution gets skewed with most regulations. If Texas has "too much" wind, electricity prices can become negative - the wind power plant operators pay to sell their electricity - because they get subsidies if they sell it. All that makes conventional power plants less attractive - but you still need them as the wind does not blow every time.jack action said:Yes, but how is controlling supply a problem?
Astronuc said:Similar problem in Illinois - too much wind.
Meanwhile, NY and NE could benefit from low cost energy - but someone needs to transmit between seller and purchaser - at a reasonable rate.
llin
We have two problems - over supply in some areas and maldistribution between producers and consumers.
But there is no such person or country that does or can rely only on wind. Even personal wind turbine owners need the grid.gmax137 said:None of these are of concern if you're running your own windmill to supply your own loads.
mfb said:If Texas has "too much" wind, electricity prices can become negative - the wind power plant operators pay to sell their electricity - because they get subsidies if they sell it.
So the problem is bureaucratic, not technical.mheslep said:The oversupply of wind in Texas is due to the federal subsidy for wind, at $25/MWh
jack action said:So the problem is bureaucratic, not technical.
Isn't it fun when politics dictates instead of common sense?