- #281
Roark
- 21
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I thought of one more question
7. How can I find out if I have a talent for law besides going to law school?
7. How can I find out if I have a talent for law besides going to law school?
If you want to find out whether specifically patent prosecution (not law in general) is right for you, you can apply for a position as a technical specialist at a law firm. Alternatively, you can pass the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent. I don't know what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng right now is though; you'll need to check with some firms.Roark said:I thought of one more question
7. How can I find out if I have a talent for law besides going to law school?
Roark said:1. How important is the PhD thesis topic (Both for school and job prospects)?
- I am working in a field that can be most concisely described as Physical Chemistry. Will prospective employers see my thesis work as a disadvantage compared to those who are specialized in, say, biotechnology?
The usual suspects: Mandarin, Japanese, and Korean. Chem Eng is not my field though, and I don't know how advantageous knowledge of those languages are for Chem Eng specifically. For fields such as semiconductors, telcom, data comm, and computers, I have seen postings in which fluency in at least one of those languages is required.Roark said:4. Which Asian languages can offer a competitive edge for IP lawyers?
CrysPhys said:If you want to find out whether specifically patent prosecution (not law in general) is right for you, you can apply for a position as a technical specialist at a law firm. Alternatively, you can pass the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent. I don't know what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng right now is though; you'll need to check with some firms.
Roark said:What about other roles like paralegals?
I read that law firms and tech companies will help employees take the Patent Bar. I hear contrasting opinions on law school though - some say employers don't encourage pursuing a law degree while some say that employers will go as far as funding law school. What is your perspective?
Thanks for answering my questions .
5. By the way, what is your undergrad degree in? Qualifications to sit for the patent bar exam are based on your undergrad degree. Full details can be found here:CrysPhys said:4. But again, before you proceed, find out what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng is. Start with the tech transfer dept at your university. Ask for referrals to patent firms that the university uses.
Perhaps you should clarify what country you're talking about, and what you mean by "non-tenure track postdoc jobs". In the US, a postdoc is a limited-term position. Are you referring to non-tenure track faculty positions? Are you referring to industrial R&D jobs after receiving a PhD? Or something else?Hector said:hi,
I like this topic and thanks for starting the conversation. I might have missed it but has anyone commented on how secure the job as a patent attorney is? (compared to non-tenure track postdoc jobs)?
In that case, you should check with an Australian patent attorney before considering a career shift; I can comment only about the US. The requirements for patent practitioners (with and without law degrees) vary considerably from one country to another. So you should find out the degree, exams, and training requirements first, and also ask about long-term career stability. I can say one thing about patent law in general (regardless of country): experience is a great plus, so you're less likely to be replaced by someone younger and cheaper once you've become an experienced patent practitioner.Hector said:Hi there, I am in Australia and postdoc life here can last 7-8 years or so (moving from one to another without being able to make it to the next level). Many academic positions here are fixed terms, only 3-4 year contracts and no promise of further employment even if they perform well and tenure positions are pretty rare. How does it work in patent attorney, do you have some job security provided that your performance is good?
You need to rewind and clarify your situation. You have another post in which you introduce yourself as a new member from Japan. So are you a Japanese citizen studying in Japan and planning to work in IP in Japan? If not, please explain your situation. As I mentioned previously, the requirements to become a registered patent practitioner vary from country to country. In particular, don't co-mingle USPTO and EPO. It is also important to consider any citizenship requirements.STEREOGENIC0711 said:Hello. Thank you for this thread. I found it really helpful and relevant for the career path I am planning to take.
I am currently a PhD student with a major in Chemistry and I will be graduating by next year. Afterwards, I am planning to undertake law studies for 1 year with a Master of Laws in Intellectual Property major in Transnational IP and Information Technology (LL.M). Then, I plan to undergo a 1 year traineeship in a law firm before taking the bar exam for patent attorney/agents. I participated in many summer schools and trainings that involve intellectual property law since I'm very much attracted to it.
I would like to ask for your suggestion on a more efficient way of becoming a patent attorney/agent, or recommendations with regards to my career plan.
I think I am getting old right now (25 years old) so I really should be starting to work outside the University setting. I actually did not have any other work experience aside from doing research works in the University.
Finally, I am quite confused with regards to the status I have when taking the bar exam and if I pass it, what job description would be relevant for me? Patent attorney or patent agent? I know having a Master of Laws (LL.M) degree would not make you a lawyer. From the previous discussions, I noticed that many science degree holders could become patent agents if they pass the bar exam given by the USPTO or EPO. Would LL.M holders become patent attorneys or agents when they pass the bar exam?
Thank you.
CrysPhys said:You need to rewind and clarify your situation. You have another post in which you introduce yourself as a new member from Japan. So are you a Japanese citizen studying in Japan and planning to work in IP in Japan? If not, please explain your situation. As I mentioned previously, the requirements to become a registered patent practitioner vary from country to country. In particular, don't co-mingle USPTO and EPO. It is also important to consider any citizenship requirements.
In your situation, some issues for you to consider:STEREOGENIC0711 said:Thank you very much for your reply. I am not a Japanese citizen though I am mixed Japanese-Filipino. I also did not elect Japanese citizenship despite living in Japan for several years now and I still hold my Philippine passport. There are fundamental differences in the USPTO, EPO, and JPO that were discussed in our course in IP law but I did not know about the nationality (Staatsangehorigkeit) requirement. Hmmm... If I consider that dilemma, would obtaining another citizenship (dual citizenship) solve the issue? Uhm, I am not planning to work for IP in Japan but in Europe because of the well-structured IP system and knowledge-based economy. Thank you.
CrysPhys said:In your situation, some issues for you to consider:
(1) Titles such as "patent attorney", "patent agent", "patent engineer", and "patent representative" are not standardized internationally. Some titles are used in Country A, but not in Country B. Some titles are used in both Country A and Country B, but have different meanings with respect to qualifications and responsibilities. So what your actual position will be called will depend on the country in which you are employed.
(2) If you are specifically interested in practicing before the EPO, carefully check the requirements (such as degree, citizenship, residence, language, ...). A good place to start is here: http://www.epo.org/learning-events/eqe/about.html [note in particular the requirement to have worked as a patent trainee prior to taking the exam]. Since you are taking IP law courses, I would recommend that you ask your profs for referral to some EPO law firms; contact them directly to clarify what the work requirements are and whether they would be interested in someone with your background [if you are fluent in Japanese, that will be a plus, since many major Japanese corps file in the EPO]. Also, remember, in addition to the EPO, each European country has its own national patent office. So, if you apply to a law firm in Germany, for example, the firm may also want you to qualify to practice before the German patent office. This may entail additional requirements to those required for practicing before the EPO. Hypothetically, let's say you need to be fluent in German. Are you fluent in German? If not, should you become fluent in German prior to applying? You want to find out all these details in advance and remedy any deficiencies while you are still at the university. Do you have a preference for which European country you want to live in? As far as patent activity, an EPO patent attorney once told me that, among European countries, the country that originates the most number of patent applications is Germany. But, if you prefer the ambience in France, that's your call. But then evaluate the job opportunities in Germany vs France; again, German law firms may have different requirements from French law firms ... so you want to find out in advance.
(3) Are you planning to study for the LLM for your own interest, or because you think it will help land you a position with a law firm? If the latter, again check with law firms in advance to see whether it will in fact help you land a position or not.
A BS in physics will satisfy the educational requirements for you to sit for the USPTO patent bar exam (assuming you meet all the other requirements). If you pass, you become a patent agent. To become a patent attorney, you need to go to law school, get a JD, pass a state bar, and pass the patent bar. So yes, it's possible for you to become a patent agent or patent attorney. Whether you will get hired by a law firm, however, is a different story. Right now, the biggest demand for those with a BS is BS EE, Comp Sci, or Comp Eng. BS Physics is a harder sell. A PhD in physics makes you more marketable. However, I never recommend that anyone get a PhD (in any field) with the sole intent of becoming a patent agent or patent attorney. But if you already have a physics PhD, and are looking for a career alternative to R&D for whatever reason, a career in IP law is one option to explore.Aaron M said:Is a patent attorney an option for someone with a BSc in physics? If so how desired are there? If not, would I need to go get a PhD?
Thank you for your response
Since you need info specific to the UK, you should chat with people working at UK IP law firms. If you were at a major university with science and engineering departments, the university should have a technology transfer and intellectual property department. Ask someone there for referrals to contacts at firms that handle their transactions. In the course of your discussions, you should ask what impact [if any] BREXIT will have on IP career opportunities in the UK.Luke R said:Hi all!
I've been looking into a career as a patent attorney and it sounds like it would play perfectly to my aptitudes in understanding new concepts and technologies, communicating ideas, and having an eye for detail and a love for language and phrasing.
I currently have an UG MSc in Physics from a top UK uni (2.1), but have since discovered that my interests lie more in mechanical engineering. I'm considering taking a ME conversion course.
Would this be sensible? How attractive is a background in physics and ME with no industrial experience likely to be for employers? Even if I don't end up going into IP law, I feel like this is likely to open up my career options a lot.
Note: as I understand it the UK system is somewhat different to the US in that it's normal to train and qualify on the job rather than going to law school.
Do you have a question, or are you just passing on advice, based on your conversations with some attorneys, not to go to law school?AgentSmith said:I have two science degrees, neither a doctorate. I've thought of law school. but every attorney I've discussed this with has recommended against it. Its a lot of work, money is not that great, there are demands on your time, and restrictions on your behavior. One attorney said, "not just no, but he// no!"
savachat said:I am not sure if this thread is still alive. If it is, I would like to know what is the typical path to take to become a patent examiner or agent or attorney, when I have a PhD degree in astrophysics. Thanks.
savachat said:Thanks @berned_you. I do not see any job for physicists on USPTO website as of now. How about jobs in private law firms? What to consider when applying to the private jobs?
(1) With respect to a job in a law firm:savachat said:Thanks @berned_you. I do not see any job for physicists on USPTO website as of now. How about jobs in private law firms? What to consider when applying to the private jobs?
Are you a fresh PhD, or do you have work experience?savachat said:I am not sure if this thread is still alive. If it is, I would like to know what is the typical path to take to become a patent examiner or agent or attorney, when I have a PhD degree in astrophysics. Thanks.
Stephanie Louris said:I have a BS in chemistry and a PhD in materials science and engineering. I've had a few career transitions: engineer to stay-at-home-mom to middle school science teacher. I never did enjoy being in the lab -- my favorite part of grad school was writing my thesis! I've found that classroom management really isn't for me, either, so several of my friends have suggested I look into being a patent agent. I've done some research and it does sound like it would be a great career for me.
So here are my questions:
-It's been 20 years since I've been a materials engineer. Would companies/law firms pass over me because of this?
-It seems like EE, software, and biotech are in the highest demand, and I am interested in biomedical applications. Would a certificate in biotech or medical devices from a place like UCSC Extension be worthwhile to improve my chances of being hired as a patent agent?
Thank you!
It's not that rare to join an IP firm without going to law school. If you have a recent PhD in the right field or recent extensive work experience in the right field, you can work as a technical specialist or patent agent.PAllen said:I only personally know one person who went from private technology career (software engineering, software development manager) to an IP firm. He, indeed took the time (money) to go to law school. It certainly paid off, he worked his way up to partner in an IP firm!
(1) I discussed entry options for IP firms in my Post #306.mcmath said:I also have a BS in chemistry, and a PhD in biomedical engineering, just graduated last month. I've been applying to 30-40 IP firms from a few months back with no luck. There are a good number of firms looking for PhDs in materials/life sciences, but they want experienced patent agents. Major IP firms (Cooley, Wilson) have openings for scientific advisers but it seems very competitive.
I'm debating to bite the bullet and study for the patent bar, or instead try for the LSAT for law school. There are other options for you such as medical writing, and government jobs such as health scientists that are mostly scientific research/writing.
I'd appreciate any input on improving our chances in the IP field (such as certificates that Stephanie mentioned), or other PhD-level writing jobs that may be available.
I'd guess that the chances are the same for those technical backgrounds. Work on maximizing your LSAT scores...paquito said:Would you say some type of engineering degree has a better shot of getting into law school than someone with a physics degree?(Bachelors)